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Blaise Savion
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.06.12 16:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi guys. I haven't played in about a year(and even before that I wasn't too knowledgeable) and was hoping to get into some solo FW PvP.
The problem I'm having is that I'm a bit lost on what I should be flying. I'm not trying to ask what's best, but it's just that Rifter was my go-to Frigate and when I asked about some fittings, people laughed at the idea of using a Rifter.
So basically what's strong right now? What will I be running into in FW for the most part? Any fun options out of the norm that you guys would suggest? |
feihcsiM
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
255
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Posted - 2013.06.12 16:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Any of the attack frigs. In my opinion the Condor, Slasher, Atron and Executioner are the best T1 non faction frigates in the game for 'general pvp' right now. It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine. |
Seraph Castillon
Justified Chaos
68
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Posted - 2013.06.12 16:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
There are a lot of viable options right now. Stay away from Amarr and you'll be fine. I'm not saying that there are no viable fits for Amarr ships, but it feels like you have to fix them before you can fly them.
Incursus, Breacher, Kestrel, Condor, (Tristan), (Merlin), (Slasher),(Atron) |
Angry Meatwad
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.06.12 17:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
By no means an experienced player pvp wise but I would think Amarr ships wouldn't be that bad. Most PvP utility mods are mid slots(AB, MWD, Points, TP, ECM etc) and Amarrs set up for armor tank which takes low slows leaving your mids free for goodies. Lots of the other ships rely on some sort of Shield setup which robs mid slots away.
What makes Amarr so bad then? |
Seraph Castillon
Justified Chaos
68
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Posted - 2013.06.12 17:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Angry Meatwad wrote:By no means an experienced player pvp wise but I would think Amarr ships wouldn't be that bad. Most PvP utility mods are mid slots(AB, MWD, Points, TP, ECM etc) and Amarrs set up for armor tank which takes low slots leaving your mids free for goodies. Lots of the other ships rely on some sort of Shield setup which robs mid slots away.
What makes Amarr so bad then?
You can't think in general terms when you're trying to find specific fits that work. The Punisher is (in my opinion) absolutely terrible. It doesn't have any role where it shines. Both the Tormentor and Executioner have some niche fits, but don't have the engagement range other races can achieve. The Crucifier has some surprise fits that work in the hands of experienced pilots, but again, engagement range is very limited. |
Ryelek d'Entari
The 4th Legion SQUEE.
79
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Posted - 2013.06.12 17:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Precisely that, midslots. Or lack thereof. Punisher has only 2. The others have 3.
Tormentor and Executioner can work as kiters but lasers have relatively poor tracking close range, so they're both pigeon-holed into one role, and are particularly vulnerable to tracking disruptors (which are common on many frigate fits). |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
84
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Posted - 2013.06.12 18:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Fly a condor with lmls and dual td. |
The VC's
Spack Force 5
136
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Posted - 2013.06.12 20:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
So much Amarr hate.....
OP, the truth is, all the frigs are good now but some are easier to fly and give more immediate gratification than others. Generally, Gallente and Caldari frigs are more SP friendly (Tristan excepted). The high DPS of blasters, the massive range of rails and the steady damage application of missiles do a lot of the work for you. Minmatar and Amarr are better with a bit more SP investment and good understanding of how your opponent might behave and what the received wisdom is floating about in peoples heads, ie, "Amarr's crap, esp Punishers", "Rifter's are rubbish now"
Minmatar have gotten more, well, Minmatar. They're never tanky or high damage but have the speed, low sig and damage selection to exploit your opponents game, once you work it out. The Slasher's the best example of this and the Rifter is still good, but hitting orbit and letting your ship stats do the work will get you killed.
Amarr are in good shape too. The Tormentor is a nasty piece of work (it's speed got buffed last week) and can easily go full kite, scram kite or brick brawler. The Executioner can do full kite and scram kite very well too but if you want to fight at less than 3km, fit a metastasis, it hits fine then. The ability to switch between range/damage/tracking quickly gives you a lot of options.
The Punisher's greatest asset is it reputation as a 2 mid lolboat. It is a hard one to fly without any prior pvp knowledge but once you get a bit more experience, that missing mid isn't so much of a hindrance. It's very good in fleets and can really lay down the hurt. I sometimes fit a overdrive in the abundant lows and surprise people with the unusually fast Punisher
The Punisher is hard mode though, for solo. But it's by no means crap. It just takes a bit of flying One in five people are Chinese. There are five people in my family, so one must be Chinese. It's either my mum, my dad, my older brother Colin or my younger brother Ho-Cha-Chu. But I think it's Colin |
Jim Nightingale
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
69
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Posted - 2013.06.12 22:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
From my experience pirating in FW space, the T1 ships you see most commonly in novice complexes (ignoring stabbed farmers) are:
[list=6] Incursus Kestrel Rifter Merlin Atron Slasher [/list]
As others have noted, there are no Amarr ships on that list, but you'll also note that the Rifter is still heavily represented. The thing is though, that I said "T1" up there. The list of ships I most commonly see in novice complexes goes:
[list=5] Caldari Navy Hookbill Federation Navy Comet Imperial Navy Slicer Dramiel Republic Fleet Firetail [/list]
This list comes in almost entirely above the first list. So I guess my basic advice would be, consider the navy frigates if you want to be solidly competitive. They really are pretty good. If you're more interested in flying something that's competitive but uncommon, I'd suggest the Crucifier, Tristan, or Maulus. The Tristan, particularly, can compete with the best if your skills are good. |
Seraph Castillon
Justified Chaos
69
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Posted - 2013.06.12 23:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
For fleet you can do Merlins (or even Tristan/Incursus) with more DPS, more speed, full tackle and more buffer than a Punisher.
Solo the punisher is too slow to kite and and entirely lacks range control, which it needs since it gets outbrawled by rail ships at their optimal.
The punisher is not hard-mode. It is simply a bad ship. |
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Taoist Dragon
No.1 Crazy Fighter Squadron Caldari State Capturing
455
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Posted - 2013.06.13 00:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bah!
Still fly the rifter if you like it. It can still do all it did before but you actually have to fly it now rather than just hit orbit and watch your targets die.
One thing is that the general opinion of rifters is in the gutter now so every man and his dog will enage you in one. Then the wonder why they are in their pod before they realise their mistake.
The punisher is a nasty peice of work. You can put out comparable damage to both merlin and incursus if you know how to fit fight with it. And the 2 mid slots don't hurt once you are down with how a punisher works.
The tomentor however is another thing completly! This is a beast with the odyssey changes as it can outdamage the punisher and almost have the same tank with better speed and the 3rd mid for more flexibility.
Ultimately don't be afriad to try different fits and pretty muhc ignore people when they say 'don't fly X ship cos it's crap!' generally they have no idea what they are talking about and are just repeating other peoples opinions on stuff they probably don't know about!
Fly dangerous! That is the Way, the Tao. Balance is everything.
We are recruiting CrAzY Pilots https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=235985&find=unread |
Taoist Dragon
No.1 Crazy Fighter Squadron Caldari State Capturing
455
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Posted - 2013.06.13 00:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Seraph Castillon wrote:For fleet you can do Merlins (or even Tristan/Incursus) with more DPS, more speed, full tackle and more buffer than a Punisher. Solo the punisher is too slow to kite and and entirely lacks range control, which it needs since it gets outbrawled by rail ships at their optimal. The punisher is not hard-mode. It is simply a bad ship.
Good workmen never blame their tools.
Just sayin' That is the Way, the Tao. Balance is everything.
We are recruiting CrAzY Pilots https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=235985&find=unread |
Seraph Castillon
Justified Chaos
69
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Posted - 2013.06.13 00:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote: Good workmen never blame their tools.
Just sayin'
Good workmen don't try to use carrots to hammer nails either. Just sayin'. I think your killboard shows a lot. You can decide whether it's the pilot or the ship.
2013-06 Tormentor 3x, 1x, 1 4
2013-05 Punisher 5x, 1x, 1x, 1x, 3 8
2013-04 Tormentor 3x, 1x, 04
2013-03 Tormentor 5x, 3 5 |
Taoist Dragon
No.1 Crazy Fighter Squadron Caldari State Capturing
455
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Posted - 2013.06.13 00:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Seraph Castillon wrote:Taoist Dragon wrote: Good workmen never blame their tools.
Just sayin'
Good workmen don't try to use carrots to hammer nails either. Just sayin'. I think your killboard shows a lot. You can decide whether it's the pilot or the ship. 2013-06 Tormentor 3x, 1x, 1 4 2013-05 Punisher 5x, 1x, 1x, 1x, 3 8 2013-04 Tormentor 3x, 1x, 04 2013-03 Tormentor 5x, 3 5
Woohoo! someone can quote KB figures :)
My work here is done!
All arguments about ships are null and void when you turn to a player's KB. Especially if said player never brags or inflates their own ability with said ships (or any ship for that matter)
You own opinions on the ships in question are exactly that. Opinions. My opinion is different and my record shows that I am a bad pilot that consistantly makes daft choices when I am out pvp'ing (who cares I have fun).
What I do consistently find however is in chatting with my oppoonents they are often surprised by the effectiveness of my fits and pretty much agree that it is often my target selection or actions during the fight that end up with my demise not the ship/fit. And I often fight known pvp'ers not just new pilots trying out FW.
non-pro tip: think abit about what is said. KB only gives end result not the process of how said result was achieved. That is the Way, the Tao. Balance is everything.
We are recruiting CrAzY Pilots https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=235985&find=unread |
Seraph Castillon
Justified Chaos
69
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Posted - 2013.06.13 00:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't advertise a ship as being good when you've not achieved anything good in it. We're not talking about how much fun you can have in a ship here. |
Charlie Jacobson
208
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Posted - 2013.06.13 01:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
Seraph Castillon wrote:Taoist Dragon wrote: Good workmen never blame their tools.
Just sayin'
Good workmen don't try to use carrots to hammer nails either. Just sayin'. I think your killboard shows a lot. You can decide whether it's the pilot or the ship. 2013-06 Tormentor 3x, 1x, 1 4 2013-05 Punisher 5x, 1x, 1x, 1x, 3 8 2013-04 Tormentor 3x, 1x, 04 2013-03 Tormentor 5x, 3 5
Don't be a killboard prostitute. Play for the experience.
Seraph Castillon wrote:What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't advertise a ship as being good when you've not achieved anything good in it. We're not talking about how much fun you can have in a ship here.
He also admitted to being a bad pilot and making bad decisions, so you can't submit those "stats" as evidence that they are bad ships. |
Taoist Dragon
No.1 Crazy Fighter Squadron Caldari State Capturing
457
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Posted - 2013.06.13 01:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
I never advertised it as good based off my performance.
I chat with a lot of low sec pirates and FW pvp'er who have also flown said ships with good results. I am also working off possitive feedback I have been given when in combat with a lot of above said pilots.
What I am saying is not to just follow the FOTM crowds as they are often mis-informed about the actual capabilities of said ships. That is the Way, the Tao. Balance is everything.
We are recruiting CrAzY Pilots https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=235985&find=unread |
Garresh
Team Chicken and Waffles
270
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Posted - 2013.06.13 06:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
The man has a point...saying a ship is good without any evidence to back it up should be be qualified as such. Rifter never was bad, firetail is amazing.
Also, that one dude who said that thing was right. Minmatar feel *more* minmatar after tiericide, somehow. Make no mistake, we got nerfed, but I'm still happy with how it all panned out. If you were good with minmatar before, you'll be good after. If you were okay with minmatar before, you'll be terrible. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Tub Chil
Last Men Standing
59
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Posted - 2013.06.13 07:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
Best combat frigates are armor repping incursus and buffer or ASB merlin. Merlin is also insanely versatile, you can even armor tank it. Trisnan is also good, it can be fitted for damage or with 3x neuts. this fit is very situational, but it can work. Best kiting is LML condor. As i see Tristan speed also got boost in odyssey, but i haven't tried it yet. all attack frigates are good. slasher and condor benefit from lots of ewar options. They are fast, so they can do scram
secondary combat frigates are not great, they all lack something. (except gallente, both incursus and tristan are good) |
The VC's
Spack Force 5
138
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Posted - 2013.06.13 11:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
A brief guide to the Punisher.
[Wot no suitcase???] 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Experimental 1MN Afterburner I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Gatling Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Gatling Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Gatling Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Trimark Armor Pump II Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I
EHP 8213 DPS conf/inmf/scorch 184/165/131 Speed 1100 Cap with inmf 2m 8s
Firstly, about the lack of damage control. One of the things about the Punisher is that it is hard to get a fit with decent dps AND decent tank, mainly down to lack of CPU. Now, with the Punisher, with it's resist bonus and generous base armour hp, when you fit 3 trimarks, a 400mm plate and a anp, that puts you at over 8k ehp. For a T1 frig that's still pretty good and is on par with the standard MSE Merlin. You then have the spare CPU to fit 2 heat sinks. If you run Genolutions and a +3 pg you can get it's ehp even higher.
Tactics.
Number one, avoid starting at zero, but don't worry about getting a fight. You are in a '2 mid lolboat' so people will often engage you. Ideally, you want to be 40-50km off your opponent, aligned. If they are kiters, warp off and question their manhood in local Picking your battles is important, but that's true of any pvp. There are three stages to this fight. Stage one. The tendency amongst pilots facing the Punisher is to dive in and try to get under their guns. This is what you want them to do. As the burn towards you, overheat your AB and burn away from them. You want to prolong their approach. When in range start softening them up with scorch, they'll expect to take some damage at this point. When they are closer switch to MF, you'll still get good hits, their trans still low.
Stage two. As they establish their orbit start manually piloting in sharp vectors, generally aiming in the direction opposite to their travel. Turn off AB overheat. You can also pilot down or up so they follow 'down the plughole' as it were. Gatling Pulses are great for this as, having the highest ROF of any gun, any moment their trans drops you're getting hits. Just make sure you stay within your optimal. You'll hardly use orbit or keep at range at all. Putting the neut on them means their time in close orbit is limited and puts the pressure on.
Stage three. Hopefully you've hurt them enough that they are thinking of bugging out. This is where they get the fait accompli. Keep a close eye on them making a run for it. Hit approach, overheat your ab and be ready to switch back to scorch and finish them off. The lack of damage control helps you in this moment as you appear to be tankier than you actually are and they are encouraged to run.
I quoted dps for conflag. Blaster users can sometimes, perceiving you to have a big tank, hit approach to pound you as point blank range. They will oblige you you low trans and in that situation conflag works fine. In fact, it's necessary to try to match their dps. Anyway, unlike any other weapon system, if one ammo isn't working out you can just switch.
Now, I'm not saying this is without hard counters, it's not. I'm not saying it's easy, it does need some practice. I'm not saying this is an awesome solo boat either and Motion prediction 5 is a must. Funnily enough, one of the best hard counters is the TD Slasher sitting at 8km, but they never do that. They dive into a close orbit that you can manipulate with manual piloting and get neuted. Where the Punisher really shines is tanky dps support for small gangs. Land on grid, lock target, apply dps. It takes a while for those blaster boats to get to their high damage range. The Punisher is more forgiving in that regard. If it were ever having it's slots rearranged, I think I'd rather swap the spare high slot for another low. One in five people are Chinese. There are five people in my family, so one must be Chinese. It's either my mum, my dad, my older brother Colin or my younger brother Ho-Cha-Chu. But I think it's Colin |
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Seraph Castillon
Justified Chaos
69
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Posted - 2013.06.13 13:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
The VC's wrote:A brief guide to the Punisher.
[Wot no suitcase???] 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Experimental 1MN Afterburner I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Gatling Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Gatling Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Gatling Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Trimark Armor Pump II Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I
EHP 8213 DPS conf/inmf/scorch 184/165/131 Speed 1100 Cap with inmf 2m 8s
1) Those numbers are all with heat. While that is of course realistic it is generally not the way ships are compared. Not without at least mentioning it.
2) That rig cost twice as much as your entire frigate. I could buy an AF for the price of that rig.
3) You can only start using MF at 3km and Scorch damage only starts at 9km. So you hitting them from range as they approach is only possible for a very short period. I think I'd prefer the Dual Light Pulses and dropping one Trimark for a SACR.
Other than that, yes, you may kill AB ships, if they don't have a TD and aren't range fit. With that engagement range ... I'll stick to my usual frigates, thanks.
I must admit that the DCU is indeed more of a handicap to the ship. Just like the Merlin it can do without. |
The VC's
Spack Force 5
139
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Posted - 2013.06.13 13:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
Seraph Castillon wrote: 1) Those numbers are all with heat. While that is of course realistic it is generally not the way ships are compared. Not without at least mentioning it.
2) That rig cost twice as much as your entire frigate. I could buy an AF for the price of that rig.
3) You can only start using MF at 3km and Scorch damage only starts at 9km. So you hitting them from range as they approach is only possible for a very short period. I think I'd prefer the Dual Light Pulses and dropping one Trimark for a SACR.
Other than that, yes, you may kill AB ships, if they don't have a TD and aren't range fit. With that engagement range ... I'll stick to my usual frigates, thanks.
I must admit that the DCU is indeed more of a handicap to the ship. Just like the Merlin it can do without.
1. News to me. I always quote OH figures. I thought everybody did.
2. But would you get the fights in an AF? Many rigs cost more than the frig. Frigs are cheap.
3. It is a short period, but it's an important period. This needs practice. You'll get frustrated before you crack it.
Other than that, yes, as I alluded to in my post TD/range fit is the way to kill it. The point it was making with the post though was that often people do the complete opposite 'coz punishers don't track'. It succeeds because it's got a bad rep. It's not crap, it's just hard to fly.
Ed. an old but good post about the Punisher. Out of date now but relevant to 'managing opponents expectations' so to speak.
http://evefng.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/shes-brick-house.html One in five people are Chinese. There are five people in my family, so one must be Chinese. It's either my mum, my dad, my older brother Colin or my younger brother Ho-Cha-Chu. But I think it's Colin |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
345
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Posted - 2013.06.13 13:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Seraph Castillon wrote:What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't advertise a ship as being good when you've not achieved anything good in it. We're not talking about how much fun you can have in a ship here. He killed ships with it. Only people who don't fight or don't take any risk don't lose ships. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1015
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Posted - 2013.06.13 20:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
Seraph Castillon wrote:Angry Meatwad wrote:By no means an experienced player pvp wise but I would think Amarr ships wouldn't be that bad. Most PvP utility mods are mid slots(AB, MWD, Points, TP, ECM etc) and Amarrs set up for armor tank which takes low slots leaving your mids free for goodies. Lots of the other ships rely on some sort of Shield setup which robs mid slots away.
What makes Amarr so bad then? You can't think in general terms when you're trying to find specific fits that work. The Punisher is (in my opinion) absolutely terrible. It doesn't have any role where it shines. Both the Tormentor and Executioner have some niche fits, but don't have the engagement range other races can achieve. The Crucifier has some surprise fits that work in the hands of experienced pilots, but again, engagement range is very limited.
Its not your opinion
The punisher is a worthless piece of junk and the torm/executioner are mediocre at best
Which is a shame because the punisher looks so cool! BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Zappity
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
166
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Posted - 2013.07.06 00:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
[quotever Taoist Dragon]All arguments about ships are null and void[/quote]
You really should be using Null and CNAM against frigates unless your manual piloting skills are truly l33t.
Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
Zappity
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
166
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Posted - 2013.07.06 00:24:00 -
[26] - Quote
I always enjoy seeing Amarr frigates on dscan. Also the Rifter. Given my relative inexperience that should tell you a lot.
Yes, I sometimes lose but the other guy has to know what he's doing. Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
91
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Posted - 2013.07.06 01:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
In no particular order:
Arty Wolf Slicer Rail DD LML condor / hookbil is also ok, but they really have a hard time fighting a gang, do to the abysmal DPS. IE it takes awhile to kill anything. Rail DD, Slicer arty wolf on the other hand pack a lot more punch.
Best frigs to PvP in hands down. |
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