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Faxanadu Phantasm
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Posted - 2005.11.17 13:12:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Faxanadu Phantasm on 17/11/2005 13:22:44 Over the last week Ive been studying the databases of deadspaces for some nice ones nearby. I was happy to discover 5 - each about 10 jumps from our newly relocated corp HQ. But that was about all the good news I was gonna get. When I took the trip to the first one, it was empty. No problem I thought, I'll check out the second - 15 more jumps - empty too. The third one was a drone space so I had to head back to hq to change my loadout. Roughly 15 more jumps.. but guess what? No key to lvl 2. And as you might expect, the last 2 yielded similar fruitless results. Round trip FOUR DAMN HOURS AND NO ISK! (anyone have a similar experience?)
"Thats no problem" I thought - "The early bird gets the worm."
So I decided I would stay up until 4 AM (when the server comes up for me) and ninja login and claim a freshly respawned deadspace for myself to rat in and earn a few isk.
"Starting up 10 seconds" - oh ya, you better believe i was on that login screen the WHOLE DAMN downtime.
But guess what? even though i swear i was the first person online, with my apoc waiting in a station in the same system as the deadspace, someone beat me to it. Infact it wasnt one guy, it was 2 guys. And another guy who said he was looking to do it but the other 2 got there first. Can you believe that? 10 seconds after the server comes up and there's 2 guys already there and 2 more who showed up "late"
In fact! This isnt the first night - its the _THIRD_ night in a row. Different deadspaces too!!!
Now, you might say "Well hey, you could put together a fleet of people and fend off the hoards of people trying to do the deadspace so that you could claim it for your own..."
A) what about deadspaces in >.4 space? - and we ALL know how overpopulated the core regions are...
B) And in 0.0 - it doesnt work to stake a claim to a deadspace there either - Ive been in that situation too - I was in a small sized alliance - no more than 15-20 ppl online at once - our area was reasonably defended from outsiders and we called the complexes in the area "ours"
But even still, My damn alliance members were always doing the stupid thing - the deadspaces were never free even when I technically owned it.
I mean look at the numbers.. what are we at now 70k accounts? and roughly 10k online at any given time, average - and how many deadspaces are there? Then ask how many people will do just what i did and go from one deadspace to the next looking for one thats respawned - or ninja login at the EXACT moment the server comes up...
I mean this is rediculous
But lets face it - people really enjoy doing deadspaces - theyre alot of fun and they pay reasonably well.
The last time I did a deadspace I earned about 10mil an hour for 7 hours soloing in lvl 2 of a 6/10 in an apoc. Now - you might think - "well, deadspaces need to be in short supply so people dont over-inflate their wallets" - well im also a miner by trade - and you can make alot more money/hr mining ark (1 jump away from the 6/10) - the fact is - deadspaces are more fun!
So - If there's enough ark for me to mine pretty much whenever i want - and there's enough lvl 4 missions to do pretty much whenever i want and there's enough rats in the belts to kill pretty much whenever i want - why arnt there deadspaces we can do pretty much whenever we want?? just make the _VERY_ End guy spawn infrequently and let us do the rest for bounties :( Hell - nerf the loot table even more - i dont want to bother picking up the cans anyway =p
In a nutshell - people are addicted to golf and they let them line up and march single file through the 18 hole courses all day long for _fun_ - ccp let us have our fun please! let more of us use these damn things :(
I understand why deadspaces are limited - my point is the reasons for that need to change so they dont have to be limited - Let us play :( |
Nikolai Nuvolari
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Posted - 2005.11.17 13:26:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Faxanadu Phantasm Hell - nerf the loot table even more
Noooooo! Why must you hate packrats like me? Then again, I don't know if it's POSSIBLE to nerf it any more than it already is.
Anyway, you're completely right. Having three quarters (or more) of the deadspace complexes empty at any given time is stupid. It's as if they don't exist, except for the lucky few who go to them at exactly the right time.
Aphoxema G: Dear Brother Solrus...Ya'talk funny. Istvaan Shogaatsu: Hahahahahaha ahahaaaaaahahahahaahahahaahaha. Ahahahahaa. I'm sorry ahahahaahaha. Hahahahahaha oh mercy. Hahaha. Hahahaahahaaaha |
Faxanadu Phantasm
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Posted - 2005.11.17 13:28:00 -
[3]
Sorry for the long rant - I just feel really strongly that something with this setup needs to change
Please - Id very much appreciate your comments |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.11.17 13:52:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Faxanadu Phantasm Sorry for the long rant - I just feel really strongly that something with this setup needs to change
Please - Id very much appreciate your comments
It does, keys for all complexes should be done away with, instead, you need to have cleared the level of all npc's to progress.
Also, all deadspace should be treated as 0.0, as in, no rules, period.
You can't make them respawn much faster, you can't have instances, so you need honest competition.
Well, there you go. _______________________________________________
Power to the players !
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.11.17 14:00:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Originally by: Faxanadu Phantasm Sorry for the long rant - I just feel really strongly that something with this setup needs to change
Please - Id very much appreciate your comments
It does, keys for all complexes should be done away with, instead, you need to have cleared the level of all npc's to progress.
Also, all deadspace should be treated as 0.0, as in, no rules, period.
You can't make them respawn much faster, you can't have instances, so you need honest competition.
Well, there you go.
Is there some reason why they can't spawn at random locations like mission plexes do? Have the entrance be common, but all it is, is a link to a new random rest-of-the-complex.
Obviously, to keep server load down, the cleanup of these random plexes would have to be fairly quick. 12 hours, maybe less? But at least it gives people a chance to get in and try them to their very end. The loot could be randomish, so that each spawned complex wouldn't necessarily drop you a bpc or whatever. It's not technically instanced this way.
I doubt this would cause any more of a performance hit to the game than agent spawned complexes do already.
Just an idea, and maybe a bad one. :)
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Faxanadu Phantasm
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Posted - 2005.11.17 14:01:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Faxanadu Phantasm on 17/11/2005 14:06:13
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Also, all deadspace should be treated as 0.0, as in, no rules, period.
You can't make them respawn much faster, you can't have instances, so you need honest competition.
Well, there you go.
Nice thought about the 0.0 thing - that makes TOTAL sense - otherwise you'd start to see covert ops ships cloaked at 50m away from some hapless noob in a 2/10 dronespace with a smartbomb - Just think of all the petitions - hehe "I activated my smartbomb in a deadspace and concord showed up and killed me -where's my can?" hehee
as for the competition thing - yes - just like ark people have to compete over all the nice rare things in the game - and believe me, i certainly dont want do away with that! - But I still think at the moment, there are far too few deadspaces to compete over - Competition is good - but what we're dealing with here is one of the most fun additions to the game (ever?) and its so rare ive only ever had the opportunity to solo one TWICE since theve been released - granted i havnt been hunting for them non stop - but the last week has been pretty intensive and ive yet to get to level 2 in one of them this week.
Competition over resources in demand is one thing - a whole week actively trying to do something without success is not competition - thats rarity to the point where you give up and post 3 page long rants on forums =p Ie. the system is slightly out of balance IMO
Please keep the comments coming - dont make me insult yo-mamma to get you posting! Ill do it!! |
Gizzit
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Posted - 2005.11.17 14:15:00 -
[7]
What about some of the other MMO's are doing with Instancing? A separate instance is spawned for each group/player entering. Is it feasible with the single-cluster hardware model?
Although, to make sure it didn't get too trivial, the encounters would have to be tweaked, or the loot-table reduced substantially.
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Gonada
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Posted - 2005.11.17 14:20:00 -
[8]
instancing will spell the doom of eve, dont talk bout that abomination again please
-Baby can you dig your man-
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Faxanadu Phantasm
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Posted - 2005.11.17 14:29:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Faxanadu Phantasm on 17/11/2005 14:38:10
Originally by: Gizzit
What about some of the other MMO's are doing with Instancing? A separate instance is spawned for each group/player entering. Is it feasible with the single-cluster hardware model?
Instancing is an intersting idea but i doubt its feasable - it would make it impossible for anyone to hunt you while you were in there - and it would make deadspaces far too accessable
Originally by: Gizzit
Although, to make sure it didn't get too trivial, the encounters would have to be tweaked, or the loot-table reduced substantially.
Yea if you tweaked the encounters - you'd end up with asteroid belt style spawns - i enjoy the fleet battle simulation :) - and i dont think you could nerf the loot table anymore - unless you let the end guy spawn even more infrequently (which i would be okay with, considering ive never seen one anyway)
I think just increasing the number of deadspaces in the world is all thats needed
Or perhaps shuffle the locations around a bit after each downtime so people have to look around for them
OR here's a better idea - each system has a deadspace complex - the location of the acceleration gate to enter the complex is randomized after each downtime - players who want to play in the deadspace have to rat hunt for a while in the belts of that system for a while first - the rats will eventually drop something like a ship log (in reality it would be a bookmark) which would allow you to warp to the acceleration gate in the system. The dropping of these bookmarks would be regulated based on how many deadspaces were being cleared world wide.
this system would replace the current 'key' system we have now - so once you got a bookmark, you could go from lvl 1 to the end - provided you didnt get killed first =p
Please - convince me these ideas are worse than the system that we have now |
Manwoman
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Posted - 2005.11.17 14:33:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Gizzit
What about some of the other MMO's are doing with Instancing? A separate instance is spawned for each group/player entering. Is it feasible with the single-cluster hardware model?
Although, to make sure it didn't get too trivial, the encounters would have to be tweaked, or the loot-table reduced substantially.
Instancing goes against the core elements of an MMORPG, the everyone interacting in the exact same world part, the exact reason its called an MMORPG!
Away with the instancing!
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Khristopher
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Posted - 2005.11.17 15:16:00 -
[11]
Something needs to be done but I don't think making them an instance is the answer. Instanced 'complexes' is what agent missions are for . I just think that the spawn timer on key holders/bosses needs to be upped and maybe make them a bit harder (but not hard to the point only 30mil sp'ers can solo them LOL). Maybe make the bosses in 1 and 2/10's web and scram and tougher like the higher bounty frigs. Uber duo of death style cruisers in 3 and 4 10's (and actual loot in the 4/10 guristas!) etc..
I dunno maybe another idea is make them hidden and have some sort of agent that gives you a key to them but limit it to once a week per system. (so the agent will only give you a key once a week for that complex so you have to move around and not perma camp a certain complex) Not instanced though but if you show up and someone is already fighting in it you have to wait a few mins for 'reinforcements' to warp in.
I know there are a lot of bad flaws in my thinking just ideas I'm throwing out there. Something needs to be changed as the current system basicly lets log in campers jump on after downtime farm them and the rest of us get leftovers. But you don't want to make it too easy otherwise players wouldn't do missions. I don't want loot nerfed either (I actually want loot added to the complexes that don't drop jack like the gurista ones VS gistii). Needs to be a balance some how so it doesn't favor farmers but isn't too easy to the point where every does them and the market is flooded with faction loot.
< / rambling >
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Nikolai Nuvolari
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Posted - 2005.11.17 15:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Gonada -Baby can you dig your man-
Better watch out that Randall Flagg doesn't get you in that lawless deadspace, huh?
Aphoxema G: Dear Brother Solrus...Ya'talk funny. Istvaan Shogaatsu: Hahahahahaha ahahaaaaaahahahahaahahahaahaha. Ahahahahaa. I'm sorry ahahahaahaha. Hahahahahaha oh mercy. Hahaha. Hahahaahahaaaha |
Jak'ai
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Posted - 2005.11.17 17:53:00 -
[13]
I say hide the damn things from the overview and make them findable by probes. Then when someone clears the thing (as in enemies don't respawn and there are no keys) then the whole complex despawns (maybe over the course of an hour to preserve some immerstion) and moves somewhere else in the constellation.
That way, if you want to camp for items you've got to put in the same kind of work each time as a guy that just wants to do a fun run with their buddies.
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Jaik Jermaine
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Posted - 2005.11.17 19:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Manwoman
Instancing goes against the core elements of an MMORPG, the everyone interacting in the exact same world part, the exact reason its called an MMORPG!
Away with the instancing!
but nothing sucks more then having no content to experience cause every place is occupied...see anarchy online: shadowlands - adonis area on why instancing is required to an extent. i guess i could just be rude and steal all your spawns but you wouldnt like that too much
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vecdran
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Posted - 2005.11.17 20:31:00 -
[15]
Edited by: vecdran on 17/11/2005 20:31:29
Originally by: Gonada instancing will spell the doom of eve, dont talk bout that abomination again please
I'm sick of that line. You morons keep on spouting it without any solid argument as to why we should not have instancing.
Either come up with an argument that actually holds water or get the hell out.
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Faxanadu Phantasm
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Posted - 2005.11.17 23:28:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Faxanadu Phantasm on 17/11/2005 23:29:08
Originally by: vecdran
Either come up with an argument that actually holds water or get the hell out.
Well, I did actually, if you read up - I said it wouldnt work to have instancing beacuse it would be impossible to hunt others while theyre inside a deadspace as there'd be no way to regulate which instance you wanted to go to specifically. Also, it would open up the deadspaces TOO much to the point where there would be no competition over them.
Please
PLEASE read before you post.. |
Eyecandi
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Posted - 2005.11.17 23:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: vecdran Edited by: vecdran on 17/11/2005 20:31:29
Originally by: Gonada instancing will spell the doom of eve, dont talk bout that abomination again please
I'm sick of that line. You morons keep on spouting it without any solid argument as to why we should not have instancing.
Either come up with an argument that actually holds water or get the hell out.
Lots of us (especially those that remember the old days) are here specifically because there is no instancing. To say that to violate one of the guiding principles that seperates Eve from other games is not a "solid argument" is to completely dismiss Eve culture. It is like dismissing another's viewpoint because it is from a different culture than your own (which this very well may be). There are a few primary principles that I have seen at work since open beta (when I first experienced Eve):
1) Teamwork is highly encouraged and rewarded over solo play; 2) Training is based on rt, not on what you do; 3) As much as the economy as possible is player-driven; 4) Monopolies are encouraged when a player/corp obtains something unique; 5) The game will always be tinkered with, so don't expect a tactic to work 3 months from now; 6) Anyone can do anything, but no one can do everything; and finally 7) There are no shards/instances.
This last is being broken in the case of China, which has enacted laws that essentially would either ruin gameplay for all of us or force CCP out of China altogether. But for those of us who still pretend to have some semblance of liberty, those core principles are what I have seen upheld time and again by CCP as I play off and on over the years. If CCP were to move away from them in a big way, I think that many of us would leave.
So please don't dismiss those comments as something that is inconsequential. Probably not everyone feels the same way I do about all of these principles, but most players can identify with most principles. If you take one principle away, the game loses a little of its character. And EVE has never been about numbers of players, but about the quality of the community.
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Melkisadek
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Posted - 2005.11.18 00:33:00 -
[18]
simple answer is to remove the downtime respawn and stop people clearing complexes to the clock
i know of one player who logs in and out for hour long periods around spawn times
it is a farcical situation that prevents anyone not flying an elite frigate or hac from actually completing a complex as opposed to shooting a few rats
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2005.11.18 01:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Also, all deadspace should be treated as 0.0, as in, no rules, period.
That'd work great until pirates started camping newbie-ish plexes in AFs, killing everything that dares try its luck. ------------------------------------ Your Civilian Gatling Railgun perfectly strikes Choke Slam [CAIN], wrecking for 6.0 damage. |
Faxanadu Phantasm
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Posted - 2005.11.18 01:29:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Rod Blaine Also, all deadspace should be treated as 0.0, as in, no rules, period.
That'd work great until pirates started camping newbie-ish plexes in AFs, killing everything that dares try its luck.
well piracy is important in eve - but you do make a good point - I think if the system for accessing these things was changed, what you suggest may not be as much of a problem - I mean - if you had to rathunt in the system for a while first in order to gain access to the deadspace, I bet a hoard of pirates (or just one guy) might be deterred from camping newbie deadspaces - furthermore - if you limited the ship sizes a little better, it could be just another theater of battle - and more places for ppl to fight (PVP) in eve isnt necessarly a bad thing
thoughts? |
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Ruiryu
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Posted - 2005.11.18 01:32:00 -
[21]
I have to argree fully here. The time tables for respawns is retarded. I had to camp out at one dead space for 2 huors before the dude with the key spawned. Even then no good drops. Oh well I was more then happy to see level 2 of a dead space for the first time.
But before my camping I spent about 2 hours jumping from known dead space to dead space in hopes of somthin. But nothing.
Please this is freaking retarded that there is never no chance to do these.
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Snefru
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Posted - 2005.11.18 02:33:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Gizzit
What about some of the other MMO's are doing with Instancing? A separate instance is spawned for each group/player entering. Is it feasible with the single-cluster hardware model?
Although, to make sure it didn't get too trivial, the encounters would have to be tweaked, or the loot-table reduced substantially.
Exactly. People that think instancing is bad, obviously don't understand the concept.
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Snefru
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Posted - 2005.11.18 02:38:00 -
[23]
Originally by: vecdran Edited by: vecdran on 17/11/2005 20:31:29
Originally by: Gonada instancing will spell the doom of eve, dont talk bout that abomination again please
I'm sick of that line. You morons keep on spouting it without any solid argument as to why we should not have instancing.
Either come up with an argument that actually holds water or get the hell out.
Yep, instancing complexes is the only way to do it.
I don't have time to grind for logs. There is enough mindless grinding in this game to keep everyone happy.
Instance the damn complexes, or spend your time flying around only to find them all empty.
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Faxanadu Phantasm
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Posted - 2005.11.18 02:55:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Faxanadu Phantasm on 18/11/2005 03:05:02
Originally by: Faxanadu Phantasm
each system has a deadspace complex - the location of the acceleration gate to enter the complex is randomized after each downtime - players who want to play in the deadspace have to rat hunt for a while in the belts of that system for a while first - the rats will eventually drop something like a ship log (in reality it would be a bookmark) which would allow you to warp to the acceleration gate in the system. The dropping of these bookmarks would be regulated based on how many deadspaces were being cleared world wide.
this system would replace the current 'key' system we have now - so once you got a bookmark, you could go from lvl 1 to the end - provided you didnt get killed first =p
Originally by: Snefru
Yep, instancing complexes is the only way to do it.
I don't have time to grind for logs. There is enough mindless grinding in this game to keep everyone happy.
Instance the damn complexes, or spend your time flying around only to find them all empty.
Wait, what you said doesnt make sense.. Youre saying you dont have the time to grind for access to a deadspace - yet youre happy wasting it flying around finding them all empty? At least with my idea you make some money/loot while youre trying to get into the deadspace. I mean if you spent an hour ratting and you didnt get a log (that lets you access the deadspace in the system youre in) at least youve made some money in the process, and if you spend an hour going from one deadspace to another (it will take you an hour to load out, fly to the first one and then from the first to the second) youve made nothing while trying to get into the deadspace - infact you run the risk of losing your ship (NPC loadout) with all the flying around youre doing.
I hear your point that instancing appears to be the only way to solve the problem - However, i really think that instancing will remove alot of very delicate aspects of the game. See the wonderful post by Eyecandi in this thread for more info about what i mean about this.
"User experience may change" well.. "User account status may change" as well
Lets do this one right pls - no instancing - I love eve for its 1 vast world and 10-20k user pop ave. No other game has this and thats one big reason why I like eve as much as i do. And as much as i hate whats going on with the china thing.. i would hate to see the unified world of eve shattered into instances where most of the 10k pop is "not reachable" by anyone trying to hunt them because they are privately humping a deadspace instance.
How about this - if those of you who are deadset on having the world of eve instanced could you please explain how it would work without destroying alot of the gameplay dynamics/economy we have now? - please do so - perhaps im missing the point.... |
Snefru
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Posted - 2005.11.18 03:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Snefru
Yep, instancing complexes is the only way to do it.
I don't have time to grind for logs. There is enough mindless grinding in this game to keep everyone happy.
Instance the damn complexes, or spend your time flying around only to find them all empty.
Wait, what you said doesnt make sense.. Youre saying you dont have the time to grind for access to a deadspace - yet youre happy wasting it flying around finding them all empty? At least with my idea you make some money/loot while youre trying to get into the deadspace.
Huh? No I said Instance them.
Shorten your posts to.
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Faxanadu Phantasm
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Posted - 2005.11.18 04:15:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Snefru
Huh? No I said Instance them.
Shorten your posts too.
Originally by: Faxanadu Phantasm
please explain how it would work without destroying alot of the gameplay dynamics/economy we have now? Perhaps im missing the point....
sorry i tend to be kinda long winded.. please though, i am interested in how you see instancing working
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Snefru
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Posted - 2005.11.18 04:41:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Snefru
Huh? No I said Instance them.
Shorten your posts too.
Originally by: Faxanadu Phantasm
please explain how it would work without destroying alot of the gameplay dynamics/economy we have now? Perhaps im missing the point....
You and who ever is in your gang have there own copy of the complex. Add someone to your gang, and when they hit the accelleration gate they come into your copy of the complex.
I played WOW for a while, and there were a lot of areas where that you had to do with a group of 5, and most of them were instanced. It works really nice. I wouldn't want to work for 3-5 hours, get to the end of the area, only to find out that the boss you need hasn't regened from the last group.
I think your going on how CCP brags about not instancing, like its a good thing. Well, instances are a good thing in areas like complexes. So get past it.
BTW, what percentage of time playing this game do you actually do anything.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.11.18 04:44:00 -
[28]
"I say hide the damn things from the overview and make them findable by probes. Then when someone clears the thing (as in enemies don't respawn and there are no keys) then the whole complex despawns (maybe over the course of an hour to preserve some immerstion) and moves somewhere else in the constellation."
My personal favourite. Complexes could be handled similar to regular missions -- each spawns randomly in a system in the region, then when it cleared it respawns in another place after a while. Doesn't even need to hide the entry points for them this way (or just hide some of them, and leave the 'easier' ones visible) ... time needed to find new location and get one's ship there is enough of show stopper to at least limit continuous camping by the same people, and give chance others who happen to be nearby the location.
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Faxanadu Phantasm
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Posted - 2005.11.18 05:20:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Faxanadu Phantasm on 18/11/2005 05:21:47
Originally by: Snefru
You and who ever is in your gang have there own copy of the complex. Add someone to your gang, and when they hit the accelleration gate they come into your copy of the complex.
I played WOW for a while, and there were a lot of areas where that you had to do with a group of 5, and most of them were instanced. It works really nice. I wouldn't want to work for 3-5 hours, get to the end of the area, only to find out that the boss you need hasn't regened from the last group.
Its a good idea on paper - i mean, eve is a very different world than wow is. Eve has a very different economy and dynamic to make money and be more powerful than others than wow does (thats at least in part why eve is #1 [www.mmorpg.com])
Im just really worried that instancing might mess up the "reality" of the game. If you move players into another 'dimension' where other people who are 'unwelcome' cannot go i think you go against the basic fabric of Eve.
Eve is about corporations - and corporations arnt nice. Corporations will attach their money sucking apparatuses to whatever is the biggest juiciest source of money is regardless as to who or what currently have their greedy hands on the prize.
Corporations cannot compete with one another if they all have UNCHECKED access to resources. Note that it is irrelevant in this regard if the resources are limited and not unlimited. ie... Long respawn times for big drops in instanced deadspaces wont offset instancing because it lends to corporations not needing to compete with eachother
Where are all the good assests? in 0.0 where others can snag them from you by force. You cant kick someone out of an instanced dimension can you?
Originally by: Snefru
BTW, what percentage of time playing this game do you actually do anything.
HAHAH why do you say that?
anyway, alot of eve is spent skilling - we all know that ;)
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Tribunal
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Posted - 2005.11.18 05:46:00 -
[30]
Quote: Im just really worried that instancing might mess up the "reality" of the game. If you move players into another 'dimension' where other people who are 'unwelcome' cannot go i think you go against the basic fabric of Eve.
This feature is already in EvE, it's called missions.
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