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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
289
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 10:05:00 -
[331] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Victoria Sin wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: In what respect does psyops warfare disrupt your gameplay?
You're calling it "psyops warfare" in an effort to give it legitimacy, when really what you mean is "trolling local". You call it "trolling" in an effort to smear and discredit, when really what you mean is "someone is playing in a way that I don't want them to" hope this helps m8 OK, let me put it another way: If you were designing a brand new game, call it Evelyn 2020 and you introduced a cloaking mechanism, would you or would you not also introduce a counter mechanism? If you say you wouldn't, then I would simply ask you to not tie yourself in knots arguing your point just for the e-peen; I won't think any less of you.
"Captain, the Romulans have engaged their cloaking device!"
"Damn! Mr. Worf! Post another whine about cloaks on the forums, maybe the devs will nerf it!"
What part of "No", do you not understand?
Cloaks already have a significant set of drawbacks, drawbacks that render all but unusable apart from some clever ship fitting and cloak specific platforms.
So there are plenty of "counters", or drawbacks to cloaking.
Let me put it to you this way. If you were to design a game a certain way, would you bend over backwards to accomodate the people who insist on playing the game wrong? Especially when their arguments have been repeatedly refuted, and they've demonstrated they are only interested in continuing to whine against the parts of your game they don't like? Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1409
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Posted - 2013.06.21 10:39:00 -
[332] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:OK, let me put it another way: If you were designing a brand new game, call it Evelyn 2020 and you introduced a cloaking mechanism, would you or would you not also introduce a counter mechanism? If you say you wouldn't, then I would simply ask you to not tie yourself in knots arguing your point just for the e-peen; I won't think any less of you.
The cloaking system in EVE already has many counters. They're just not big obvious counters like a shiny red button that uncloaks an enemy ship, they're more subtle than that.
For a start, the ships that fit cloaks inherently have weaker tanks, and lower dps. That's an inbuilt counter to the benefits provided by cloaking.
Secondly, as cloaking does not hide you entirely from the enemy (thanks to local) then that too acts as a counter to benefits/gains you get from cloaking.
You need to acknowledge the counters and tradeoffs already inherent in the system rather than ignoring them and insulting me, friend. It'll give your arguments more credibility and help make for more constructive, thought provoking discussion on the subject.
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Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
299
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Posted - 2013.06.21 10:42:00 -
[333] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote: For a start, the ships that fit cloaks inherently have weaker tanks, and lower dps. That's an inbuilt counter to the benefits provided by cloaking.
I think the word "counter" has a very specific meaning that you're not understanding here.
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Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
299
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Posted - 2013.06.21 10:44:00 -
[334] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: "Captain, the Romulans have engaged their cloaking device!"
"Damn! Mr. Worf! Post another whine about cloaks on the forums, maybe the devs will nerf it!"
Interesting that you give this a an example, because I do believe a counter to cloaking was developed called a Quantum Beacon. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
289
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 11:45:00 -
[335] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: "Captain, the Romulans have engaged their cloaking device!"
"Damn! Mr. Worf! Post another whine about cloaks on the forums, maybe the devs will nerf it!"
Interesting that you give this a an example, because I do believe a counter to cloaking was developed called a Quantum Beacon.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cloaking_device
Yeah, from a millennium past their own technology(and it even said it didn't work on Romulans, lol). So unless the Concord of the future warps in one day and hands you a dev ex machina, it's not happening.
I really wonder why all the resistance to simply taking other people's advice. I know people come on here in the first place to try and get sympathy for their self inflicted plight, but really, you ought to take some of the advice given in the last few pages.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
547
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 11:57:00 -
[336] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Remove cloaked ships from local.
Also, you should never feel safe in eve.
... Unless you're an AFK cloaker, in which case you should be allowed to hunt and pick your targets under the complete and 100% safety of your cloak. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
300
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 12:11:00 -
[337] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I really wonder why all the resistance to simply taking other people's advice. I know people come on here in the first place to try and get sympathy for their self inflicted plight, but really, you ought to take some of the advice given in the last few pages.
Who says people aren't taking advice? A dumb game mechanic is a dumb game mechanic. Mitigating it doesn't make it any less dumb.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2246
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 12:37:00 -
[338] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I really wonder why all the resistance to simply taking other people's advice. I know people come on here in the first place to try and get sympathy for their self inflicted plight, but really, you ought to take some of the advice given in the last few pages.
"Brilliant Idea" people tend to let their egos get tied up with their opinions. Conceding that (after all the evidence is in) an Idea they came up with or championed is stupid is (to them) literally the same thing as saying "I'm a dumb ass". And really, how many people would do that lol..
I try to keep that in mind. You'll never get people like this to concede no matter how much evidence or testable logic you throw at them. What I do is look at it as if it were a court case, with the public (including CCP) being the Jury.
As to your original question though. The answer to why not just take the advice? That's simple, it involves effort, people don't like effort, that want easy solutions. Getting CCP to change things to make their lives easier seems a better plan (to them) than doing anything else. Basically they are excuse makers.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2247
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Posted - 2013.06.21 12:49:00 -
[339] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:James Amril-Kesh and Jenn aSide have explained why removing local in existing space 0.0 is not a good idea, these reasons have been explained on multiple other threads.
in order to post in GD I had to train "talking to a brick wall" to 5 :) .
Quote: Others have suggested that the better way would be to create a new super region which is connected to a gate three jumps into low low sec, this leads to a region which is too far for cyno jumps to reach it. The region will have no local and no details supplied to the API and no ingame map details. Then see how that develops, because you cannot bring existing fleets in it means people will need to bring in or gather materials in that region to make capital fleets, furthermore people cannot use existing capital fleets to dominate. Cyno's of course work within that region and then you can have this whole region to play with without local, at which point we will see no more of these stupid threads
Even that wouldn't convince "them".
When the results of such an experiment showed everyone the problems we predicted in this thread, the backfire effect would come into play the same way it already does with wormholes. Wormholes have as a section of EVE have very low populations and fewer ships dying than other areas because of how it exists (no local, hard to get into, sometimes hard to get out of etc etc).
it's like modern Communists who scream "the theory isn't bad, the Soviet Union just sucked at implementing it, comrade" lol.
At some point we all have to accept that dumb ideas just never die.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14987
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 13:52:00 -
[340] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote: For a start, the ships that fit cloaks inherently have weaker tanks, and lower dps. That's an inbuilt counter to the benefits provided by cloaking.
I think the word "counter" has a very specific meaning that you're not understanding here. He may not have mentioned a direct counter. But just because you don't like the current direct counters, doesn't mean they don't exist.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
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Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
354
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 13:56:00 -
[341] - Quote
I'm on the fence on this, I don't think local is something that must go but I also would love to see what would happen if it did.
I see no reason for CCP not to break it down by 0.0/LS/HS and WH space. Always liked that idea.
Add a sov feature in for people that want it or don't where they own space. Delayed? Whatever, I'm sure they can do something interesting with it.
Or it will stay this way forever, both work. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1413
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 14:38:00 -
[342] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote: For a start, the ships that fit cloaks inherently have weaker tanks, and lower dps. That's an inbuilt counter to the benefits provided by cloaking.
I think the word "counter" has a very specific meaning that you're not understanding here.
Well then I have another word for you: Balance.
Cloaks don't need to have something that will directly negate what they do or turn them off when you consider all the actual balanced trade offs already in place. |
Sarcasim
The Free Haven Group The Union of Free Worlds
9
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 15:18:00 -
[343] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Victoria Sin wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:Victoria Sin wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: In what respect does psyops warfare disrupt your gameplay?
You're calling it "psyops warfare" in an effort to give it legitimacy, when really what you mean is "trolling local". You call it "trolling" in an effort to smear and discredit, when really what you mean is "someone is playing in a way that I don't want them to" hope this helps m8 OK, let me put it another way: If you were designing a brand new game, call it Evelyn 2020 and you introduced a cloaking mechanism, would you or would you not also introduce a counter mechanism? If you say you wouldn't, then I would simply ask you to not tie yourself in knots arguing your point just for the e-peen; I won't think any less of you. "Captain, the Romulans have engaged their cloaking device!" "Damn! Mr. Worf! Post another whine about cloaks on the forums, maybe the devs will nerf it!" What part of "No", do you not understand? Cloaks already have a significant set of drawbacks, drawbacks that render all but unusable apart from some clever ship fitting and cloak specific platforms. So there are plenty of "counters", or drawbacks to cloaking. Let me put it to you this way. If you were to design a game a certain way, would you bend over backwards to accomodate the people who insist on playing the game wrong? Especially when their arguments have been repeatedly refuted, and they've demonstrated they are only interested in continuing to whine against the parts of your game they don't like? Exactly how would pressing a button every 15-30 minuets to remain cloaked put the cloaked at any greater disadvantage... Correct it doesnt
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TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1413
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 15:32:00 -
[344] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:Exactly how would pressing a button every 15-30 minuets to remain cloaked put the cloaked at any greater disadvantage... Correct it doesnt
It puts them at a disadvantage in a number of ways, actually.
Firstly, it's introduced unnecessary extra mouse clicks. Suggesting that a user must mash a button or mouse click arbitrarily in order to sit and do nothing is just horrible horrible design.
Secondly, it provides even more intel and reduces the unknown quantities in nullsec. By the very nature of my ship still being cloaked, you know I'm sitting at the keyboard, ready to press buttons and do things.
As I said earlier in this topic, these whine threads are always, ALWAYS about one thing: People who cannot handle the fact that a cloaked player is an unknown quantity. If you force me to press a button every 15 minutes to stay cloaked, then there is no longer an unknown quantity to cloaked players. That's a bad thing, and serves only the terrible idea that in EVE, in nullsec of all places, you should have absolute, perfect intel and know everything. That's bad. It's wrong. Biomass yourself.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15068
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 15:35:00 -
[345] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:Exactly how would pressing a button every 15-30 minuets to remain cloaked put the cloaked at any greater disadvantage... Already answered: it provides others with even more free intel on top of the free intel they've already not done anything to earn.
You can keep asking the same question, but the answer won't change, and your answer will remain wrong. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
362
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 15:39:00 -
[346] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote: Exactly how would pressing a button every 15-30 minuets to remain cloaked put the cloaked at any greater disadvantage... Correct it doesnt
Well if I were out in my cloakie and I needed to go afk in a hostile system without any POS or Station to go safely to, and I have an aggression timer so logofski isn't a viable option for the next 15 minutes, well...I guess I'm boned.
But since I know what it is you are really looking for, let me pose the counter-question: Exactly how would having anyone who hasn't spoken in local chat in 15-30 minutes disappearing off the local window going to change your gameplay?
Scary thought, isn't it? But that's why you don't like the afk cloaker, because it ruins your perfect security blanket that is local intel. Perhaps if you worked on championing a solution to that problem you might get CCP to look inot solving your own personal problems, because it's not a problem to the rest of us.
Source: I rat in 0.0 and dgaf if there is a hostile in local, cloaked or otherwise. |
Sarcasim
The Free Haven Group The Union of Free Worlds
9
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 15:48:00 -
[347] - Quote
It doesn't give free intel other than to show the person has been at their kb in the last 30 min..seems fair to me. He'll make it 45 min. If you can't be at the on playing the game then you shouldn't be in the game.
FYI your replies to the question where so inane I thought you were trolling |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15068
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 15:51:00 -
[348] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:It doesn't give free intel other than to show the person has been at their kb in the last 30 min So it's more free intel. What have they done to deserve that?
Also, if that's the kind of intel you want, why not solve it like Kijo suggested: after 15 minutes of inactivity, you're removed from all chat lists?
Quote:If you can't be at the on playing the game then you shouldn't be in the game. Why not? Why are you to decide what other players should or should not do in-game? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14988
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 15:53:00 -
[349] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:It doesn't give free intel other than to show the person has been at their kb in the last 30 min..seems fair to me. He'll make it 45 min. If you can't be at the on playing the game then you shouldn't be in the game.
FYI your replies to the question where so inane I thought you were trolling Of course it's free intel. If this idea is in place and you keep pressing the button, they know you are at the keyboard. That's free intel. If you forget and decloak, they can find you. That's also free intel.
Why should you get even more intel, on top of the already powerful local intel tool?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2253
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 15:58:00 -
[350] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote: In what respect does using autopilot disrupt someone else's game-play?
Sometimes people accidentally expose their real motivation, this eems like one of those times. The problem is AFKing or cloaking or local, it's the fact that people respond poorly to people in the systems they use to make isk in.
I respond properly, by preparing for them, ignoring them, evading them, countering their possoble threat by fitting in creative ways, and (rarely) killing them when they aren't "bluffing". And because I do this, i understand that what they are doing (cloaking, even cloaking and going afk) isn't the problem some of you want it to be.
No, the problem is people too risk-averse to be in null sec (or playing EVE in general) being someplace other than high sec. The problem is people wanting to have their cake (being in null sec making piles of isk) while eating it too (high sec style safety, notice no one complains of cloaking in high sec lol).
The problems are mental weakness, laziness and a feeling of entitlement (to null sec income without having to deal with those pesky null sec issues like blowing up).
It would be different if i was a cloaker, but Im not, im their TARGET, but I take pride in being a Smart-HARD target with a 5 year flawless record of "no candy for you cloak-*****".
It's a shame that some grown folks are just bad at the game while blaming that failure on the game itself. If that last sentence hurts someones feelings, it means you're one of them lol.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2253
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Posted - 2013.06.21 15:59:00 -
[351] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote: If you can't be at the on playing the game then you shouldn't be in the game.
So you agree that autopiloting in high sec should require fuel or automatically log people off after 2 jumps. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
362
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:00:00 -
[352] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:It doesn't give free intel other than to show the person has been at their kb in the last 30 min..seems fair to me. He'll make it 45 min. If you can't be at the on playing the game then you shouldn't be in the game.
FYI your replies to the question where so inane I thought you were trolling
Sooo....it tells you that after 30 minutes that the guy in local that you still can't find is an actual active threat, I don't see how that gives one side an advantage at all....I am stumped. |
Sarcasim
The Free Haven Group The Union of Free Worlds
9
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Posted - 2013.06.21 16:00:00 -
[353] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Sarcasim wrote: If you can't be at the on playing the game then you shouldn't be in the game.
So you agree that autopiloting in high sec should require fuel or automatically log people off after 2 jumps. Stop trying to prove your the idiot that you are. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14990
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:01:00 -
[354] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sarcasim wrote: If you can't be at the on playing the game then you shouldn't be in the game.
So you agree that autopiloting in high sec should require fuel or automatically log people off after 2 jumps. Stop trying to prove your the idiot that you are. 'You're'
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2253
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:02:00 -
[355] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Sarcasim wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sarcasim wrote: If you can't be at the on playing the game then you shouldn't be in the game.
So you agree that autopiloting in high sec should require fuel or automatically log people off after 2 jumps. Stop trying to prove your the idiot that you are. 'You're'
luls |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2253
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:03:00 -
[356] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sarcasim wrote: If you can't be at the on playing the game then you shouldn't be in the game.
So you agree that autopiloting in high sec should require fuel or automatically log people off after 2 jumps. Stop trying to prove your the idiot that you are.
I accept your surrender. Are you French perchance? |
Sarcasim
The Free Haven Group The Union of Free Worlds
9
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:03:00 -
[357] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Sarcasim wrote:It doesn't give free intel other than to show the person has been at their kb in the last 30 min..seems fair to me. He'll make it 45 min. If you can't be at the on playing the game then you shouldn't be in the game.
FYI your replies to the question where so inane I thought you were trolling Of course it's free intel. If this idea is in place and you keep pressing the button, they know you are at the keyboard. That's free intel. Why should you get even more intel, on top of the already powerful local intel tool? Oh and it's my account, I'll do whatever I wish with it thanks. (within the EULA) I guess for the same reason a person should be able to be cloaked up while sleeping in bed forcing others to adapt to their presence in system.
Same thing afk ice miners said until they changed it |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14990
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:06:00 -
[358] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:Mag's wrote:Sarcasim wrote:It doesn't give free intel other than to show the person has been at their kb in the last 30 min..seems fair to me. He'll make it 45 min. If you can't be at the on playing the game then you shouldn't be in the game.
FYI your replies to the question where so inane I thought you were trolling Of course it's free intel. If this idea is in place and you keep pressing the button, they know you are at the keyboard. That's free intel. Why should you get even more intel, on top of the already powerful local intel tool? Oh and it's my account, I'll do whatever I wish with it thanks. (within the EULA) I guess for the same reason a person should be able to be cloaked up while sleeping in bed forcing others to adapt to their presence in system. Prey tell how does someone AFK cloaked in bed asleep, force you to do anything? Isn't it merely prudent to take precautions with an enemy in the system? you are after all in null. What relevance does them being AFK have to taking those steps?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Sarcasim
The Free Haven Group The Union of Free Worlds
9
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:06:00 -
[359] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Sarcasim wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sarcasim wrote: If you can't be at the on playing the game then you shouldn't be in the game.
So you agree that autopiloting in high sec should require fuel or automatically log people off after 2 jumps. Stop trying to prove your the idiot that you are. I accept your surrender. Are you French perchance? Is this where the grammer and spelling trolling starts until you get the thread locked because you dont like the subject and have no valid reason to allow afk cloaking? |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14990
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:08:00 -
[360] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sarcasim wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Sarcasim wrote: If you can't be at the on playing the game then you shouldn't be in the game.
So you agree that autopiloting in high sec should require fuel or automatically log people off after 2 jumps. Stop trying to prove your the idiot that you are. I accept your surrender. Are you French perchance? Is this where the grammer and spelling trolling starts until you get the thread locked because you dont like the subject and have no valid reason to allow afk cloaking? It only arose due to a personal attack. It's just funny and ironic to highlight such things in those circumstances.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
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