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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Snuse
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.06.16 21:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Same value rocks with more risk. Where is the reward, or is there any? |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
363
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Posted - 2013.06.16 21:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
How about the story you can tell after being hunted and got out in safety? After all, EVE is a MMORPG.
Remove insurance. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1641
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Posted - 2013.06.16 22:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
3 of the top 5 rocks are in lowsec ... perhaps you're doing it wrong?
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Revolution Rising
Norse'Storm Battle Group Circle-Of-Two
384
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Posted - 2013.06.16 22:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Snuse wrote:Same value rocks with more risk. Where is the reward, or is there any?
Don't forget the wonderment of carting it all back to high-sec to sell later.
CSM7 Skype Leak
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Felicity Love
STARKRAFT Joint Venture Conglomerate
685
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Posted - 2013.06.17 00:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
... hears there are awesome beaches and great food in Low Sec.
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
654
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Posted - 2013.06.17 02:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mine Veldspar, it refines for ungodly amounts of of trit which is still 5 ISK PU in Jita.
If you mine say for a day and place 100M units of trit on the market at 4.5, then your almost there to doing it right. |
Snuse
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.06.17 05:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:3 of the top 5 rocks are in lowsec ... perhaps you're doing it wrong?
Well, I am kind of hoping that I am currently doing it wrong. What rocks should I be mining, that are plentiful only in lowsec, that would be more profitable than chewing away on Veldspar in highsec? |
Eric Raeder
East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate
30
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Posted - 2013.06.17 06:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
You can find ore that is more valuable than anything in highsec in lowsec: jaspet, hemorphite and hedbergite. But the hassle of avoiding getting ganked by some passerby in a thorax or whatever usually means you cannot make as much isk per hour, since you spend a fair fraction of your time hiding, and can't safely engage in semi-afk activities like trading like you can in highsec.
However, this is a game, and the object is to have fun. If you enjoy ninja mining hedbergite while craftily evading the homicidal sods who want to add you to their killboard count, go for it.
Oh, and don't forget ice. Ice prices are going up like a rocket, and I would bet that lowsec ice anomolies don't get mined out nearly as quick as the highsec ones. |
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
34
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Posted - 2013.06.17 06:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
If you want to make relaxing isk I'd mine in hisec and null. If you want to play cat and mouse and make poop isk I'd go to lowsec. |
Britta Nolen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
32
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Posted - 2013.06.17 08:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:ore
Arrange by price per m3 and mine that. |
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Praxis Ginimic
350
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Posted - 2013.06.17 15:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
I saw a large gniess deposit anom sit practically untouched in a low sec system for 3 full days. Some alliance members tried to mine in it but the rest of us kept sneaking up in SB's then decloaking and saying "boo" in local, landing at 0 in catalyst/brutix gank fleets, and seeing how far we could bump them. They gave up pretty quickly.
I guess its too stressful even when there are only friendlies in system.
Honestly though, every time I see an exhumer on D the first thing I think it's bait...but then again, I always seem to take the bait even when it is an obvious trap |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1354
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Posted - 2013.06.17 16:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
Snuse wrote:Same value rocks with more risk. Where is the reward, or is there any?
Have you considered that when mommy dropped you on yer head as a youngling it caused permanent damage? :-p Stories are just bragging rights on the Forums: they mean nothing to your game. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
698
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Posted - 2013.06.17 17:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Why are you out mining in low sec? Simple, you are not, nobody is. Why?
Even simpler, it is to dangerous. The risks out weight the rewards.
Sure, if you could mine non stop like you can in high sec the better ores would net you at least 50% better income. Even if there was no risk from other players the rats alone would require you to tank your ship, costing you some yield.
Add to that the fact that low sec is a PVP zone dominated by pirates and gankers more interested in easy PVP than getting organized enough to claim some null sec space. You can not mine in low sec the way you do in high sec, you will get poped before you even fill your ore hold once.
If you are very careful and only mine in the hidden grav sites where you need to be scanned down, you can get some mining in, maybe even make a profit, but you will still spend more time hiding than mining, giving you a lower isk/hr than mining in highsec. And that was before they removed grav sites and made them all anomalies that no longer need to be scanned down. Even if you are mining in a Skiff, the time it would take you to mine enough ore just to pay for your ship will leave you exposed long enough that your chances of getting caught and popped are way over 50%.
Many, including Fozzie insist this is not true. But I say prove it. That fact that mining activity in low sec is all but non existent proves that the risk vs reward makes low sec mining not worth while. Null sec mining is not much better, unless you are deep inside alliance space.
The reason low sec mining is not done is because to do so, inb a way that will not leave you sitting in your pod before you even pay for your ship, will leave you with an isk/hr ratio far below what you can make in high sec. Miners are risk adverse as it is, but the only ting they really care about is isk/hr. If they have the tools they need to mitigate that risk for a higher isk/hr many will leave the safety of high sec to do so, but only if they can mitigate the risk. That does not include relying on corp or alliance mates for protection. Even if they can successfully mitigate the risk, the rewards must be high enough offset that added risk. These margins are very small.
There is a reason why 99% of miners are in high sec, it simply is not worthwhile for them to leave. Those who find opportunities, or are clever enough to create opportunities will venture out. But only if the isk/hr is worth the effort. Even then their numbers are small.
At least 95% of the demand for high end minerals is met by miners living deep inside friendly sov space. Most high sec miners do not have access to space like this. large null sec alliances do not recruit miners, there recruit PVPers who may or may not have miner alts. For the rest mining outside of high sec is just not an option.
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Madeline Borshuul
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.06.17 19:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Our corp is actually asking itself "Why are we mining AT ALL ?"
We cannot seem to tax the minerals from members, so ... what is the point ?
We can't make money for the corp (We want to set up a POS) this way.
I agree with bugsy above - if we cannot tax mining, how do we grow to live in low-sec or 0.0 ? |
Snuse
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.06.17 19:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
But.. but.. but.. there's must clearly be a reason for it being the way it is?
I can not simply grasp why they would not raise the rewards from venturing into lowsec and 0.0 significantly, and how it would not contribute to the game in a positive way for everyone? Miners would have an alternative to the safety of highsec and pvp'ers would have more juicy targets to choose from and we could have a game going here.
I refuse to believe that it is the way it is because of bad design, so someone please explain this logic to me. |
Madeline Borshuul
Hedion University Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2013.06.17 19:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Perhaps they don't like miners ;)
We are discussing at the moment to just stop mining, not much point without being able to make a tax.
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Mari Hata
Main Street Crafts and Goods
25
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Posted - 2013.06.17 19:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Snuse wrote:But.. but.. but.. (..) I refuse to believe (...)
You'll have to, eventually. There's room for improvement at every corner. Should you doubt it, next time you enter your captain's quarters in a station, try opening the door to your left.
GÇ£Eve. Do you know what Eve is? ItGÇÖs a thousand worlds for our eyes to see. A story we agree to tell each other, over and over, til we forget that itGÇÖs a lie.GÇ¥ |
Revolution Rising
Norse'Storm Battle Group Circle-Of-Two
384
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Posted - 2013.06.17 20:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
Madeline Borshuul wrote:Perhaps they don't like miners ;)
We are discussing at the moment to just stop mining, not much point without being able to make a tax.
Came to the exact same conclusion. It's even worse in low-sec/0.0.
Only station owners can tax mining. it's absurd.
The real problem with eve online is that 50% of the gameplay is made for 2% of the community to take part in whether it be R64 Moon mining, station owning, space ownership, Lab Rental (done in stations also), etc etc.
And the only changes ever seem to be trying to balance those particular things - apart from PVP ships.
A decent refinery should be something any pos can run for the very few miners that are left in the game mining from a POS and tax done at that refinery at the time of refining. It's simple but will never happen. CSM7 Skype Leak
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris
1970
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Posted - 2013.06.17 22:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ive seen more and more comments related to taxing mining in low and null. This leads me to believe that the various entities in low and null are interested in mining occurring there, but are still feeling blocked by game mechanics. Those being:
Poor refining efficiency. No automatic way for a corp or alliance to profit from it. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Ave Kathrina
My Ass Is On Fire
52
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Posted - 2013.06.18 02:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Madeline Borshuul wrote:Our corp is actually asking itself "Why are we mining AT ALL ?"
We cannot seem to tax the minerals from members, so ... what is the point ?
We can't make money for the corp (We want to set up a POS) this way.
I agree with bugsy above - if we cannot tax mining, how do we grow to live in low-sec or 0.0 ?
Could it be because you are in an NPC corp ???? I've done some really stupid **** in this game. |
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Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
160
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Posted - 2013.06.18 02:44:00 -
[21] - Quote
Madeline Borshuul wrote:Our corp is actually asking itself "Why are we mining AT ALL ?"
We cannot seem to tax the minerals from members, so ... what is the point ?
We can't make money for the corp (We want to set up a POS) this way.
I agree with bugsy above - if we cannot tax mining, how do we grow to live in low-sec or 0.0 ?
Make the management put some real work into it.
Build a ore calculator and run the hauling so they can make a % off it.
It's easier than you think it is to tax mining. |
Revolution Rising
Norse'Storm Battle Group Circle-Of-Two
384
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Posted - 2013.06.18 06:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ireland VonVicious wrote:Madeline Borshuul wrote:Our corp is actually asking itself "Why are we mining AT ALL ?"
We cannot seem to tax the minerals from members, so ... what is the point ?
We can't make money for the corp (We want to set up a POS) this way.
I agree with bugsy above - if we cannot tax mining, how do we grow to live in low-sec or 0.0 ? Make the management put some real work into it. Build a ore calculator and run the hauling so they can make a % off it. It's easier than you think it is to tax mining.
Just what people need, 2nd jobs.
CSM7 Skype Leak
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Oxide Ammar
Aurora Security Transstellar Operations
7
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Posted - 2013.06.18 07:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ave Kathrina wrote:Madeline Borshuul wrote:Our corp is actually asking itself "Why are we mining AT ALL ?"
We cannot seem to tax the minerals from members, so ... what is the point ?
We can't make money for the corp (We want to set up a POS) this way.
I agree with bugsy above - if we cannot tax mining, how do we grow to live in low-sec or 0.0 ? Could it be because you are in an NPC corp ????
Heard before about something called alt account ? / facepalm |
Zappity
Kurved Space
133
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Posted - 2013.06.18 17:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
Madeline Borshuul wrote:Our corp is actually asking itself "Why are we mining AT ALL ?"
We cannot seem to tax the minerals from members, so ... what is the point ?
We can't make money for the corp (We want to set up a POS) this way.
I agree with bugsy above - if we cannot tax mining, how do we grow to live in low-sec or 0.0 ?
Faction warfare is how you get established in lowsec. More isk, loads more fun and teaches you some of the skills you need in null. Start in T1 frigates and have a blast.
Or a C1/2 wormhole but PvP will be much more costly to learn. Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
700
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Posted - 2013.06.18 18:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
Snuse wrote:But.. but.. but.. there must clearly be a reason for it being the way it is?
I can not simply grasp why they would not raise the rewards from venturing into lowsec and 0.0 significantly, and how it would not contribute to the game in a positive way for everyone? Miners would have an alternative to the safety of highsec and pvp'ers would have more juicy targets to choose from and we could have a game going here.
I refuse to believe that it is the way it is because of bad design, so someone please explain this logic to me.
It is not bad design, but simply a misjudgment of how the player base will react.
For example look at the work done with faction wars. they tried to make it so you could suport your PVP efforts in factions wars through PVP. The solution they came up with was amazing, you could PVP and make isk. What they did not see coming was how players would use that new content in a twisted way to exploit those rewards for trillions of isk. Assets were seized, and changes were made to eliminate that exploitable income.
CCP Fozzie and the rest of the team has done an amazing job with the ships re balancing and combat aspects of the recent updates and expansions. He was a PVP player in EVE before he got a job at CCP. he was familiar with the game mechanics, and the issues with PVP and ship balance. that back ground helped him steer the changes in a direction that would give the most improvement. But I doubt he has ever spent any time mining as an activity outside of simply testing mechanics. Well maybe when he was a noob, but we all did at least some mining in an osprey in our first weeks in EVE.
The issues come in when trying to predict how players will react to new or changed content. I believe there is a lot of paranioa in CCP not to repeat the mistakes of the faction wars changes. Thus each buff is overly compensated in a way that basically nullifies the improvement. This is safe, but prevents the change we are striving for from happening.
I believe EVE would gain very much new life if the focus of the economy was shifted from high sec to null sec. empire space is a great place to start your journey in EVE, but should only be a stepping stone to null sec. The resources of null sec should support high sec, not the other way around. The conflict driver in null sec should be the control of those resources, to feed the empires, not just a place to establish player housing away from the guards. Null sec has become stagnant as it costs a lot of isk to establish an and maintain an empire, it is not economical to move it once it is built. So we are left with power blocks who simply defend their space, petty squabbles are the main conflict driver.
It is just not worth the effort and expense to push for better space when it has taken months and billions of isk to upgrade what you hold. But as in any other game, fear of losing what you have may keep you from taking the risks to reach for something better. Considering the fact that if you can take and hold space with a better true sec, you then have to put resources into upgrading that space, which would then be at higher risk of being taken from you by a more powerful entity. Could this be why so many null sec entities are content to just defend the space they have rather than expand or move onto better space.
I believe CCP is going in the right direction in their goal of making ICE like to oil of EVE. This works well as oil is the primary source for fuel in the modern world, While ICE is the primary source for fuel in EVE. But this could be extended to ore and minerals. Would it not make sense that the resources of high sec have been consumed by the growth of the empires. This has made it necessary to push further and further out into the depths of space to find new sources of these much needed resources. We have some of this in EVE already with the higher end ores being available in larger quantities the further you get from high sec. This frontier should be the home of most capsuleers, not high sec. I would love to eventually see high sec become nothing more than the noob starting area. But for this to be done successfully it has to come in small steps. I believe CCP is on the right road to make that happen, if that is indeed their goal. |
Deprecaye
Inept Astronomics
0
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Posted - 2013.06.18 18:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mining in low-sec just became a lot more profitable for me. For every 10 million ISK worth of minerals I mine, I get at least one clone soldier transport tag, which is apparently worth 100M. No complaints here, lol, although it does make me consider just farming the clone soldiers in a ship better equipped for that, haha. |
Ivan Krividus
Society of Time Forgotten. The United Systems Commonwealth
1
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Posted - 2013.06.19 00:56:00 -
[27] - Quote
Veldspar in Lowsec doesn't make more than veldspar in high.... |
Civ Kado
State Protectorate Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2013.06.19 12:50:00 -
[28] - Quote
So the ore changes that were promised for low and nullsec was basically BS? |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
702
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Posted - 2013.06.19 13:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ivan Krividus wrote:Veldspar in Lowsec doesn't make more than veldspar in high.... In actual isk/hr it actually does. Not in isk/m3 but with larger rocks to mine you less far less partial cycles which adds up top move m3/hr of actual yield.
As side from the fact that hedbergite, hemorphite, and Jaspet are all low sec ores, and are 3 of the top 4 most valuable ore, low sec mining would be much higher isk/hr than high sec if you could mine non stop there. But there is were the issue lies, those who do bother to mine in low sec generally spend more time hiding then mining which drops the isk/hr below high sec.
Before grav sites were removed you could mine in low sec resonably well. Not many low sec dwellers equip probe launchers, and since they have to scan you down to gank you, it was possible to mine in low sec for profit. When someone did come along with a probe launcher looking for you, you would see the probes on D-scan in time to GTFO. All you had to do was be ATK and pay attention. Now every non friendly in the system has to be treated as if they are hunting you. Because by the time you know if they actually are it is to late to escape.
Fozzie says we will have to find creative ways to work around this. I do not have extra accounts to use for scouting or PVP defense, My PVPers are my miners. I do not wish to join a power block alliance just to continue accessing the content that was available to me before Odyssey. Does anyone have any bright ideas to make this work? Or do I just become a ganker/ratter like everyone else? Keep in mind if everyone was a ganker, there would be no targets left to gank. |
Hopelesshobo
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
33
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Posted - 2013.06.19 13:47:00 -
[30] - Quote
Many people say to use a Venture to mine in lowsec. I would agree with this because it is basically suicide to mine in a retriever with anything other then blues in system due to the align time. Here lies the problem.
Max skill venture has 40% of the yield vs a max skilled Retriever with T2 crystals. Max skill venture has 38% of the yield vs a max skilled Mackinaw with T2 crystals. Omber is around 51% of the value of Hedbergite (Lowest value highsec ore vs highest value lowsec ore)
Now granted there are people that cannot use T2 crystals for a specific roid yet.
Max skill venture has 46% of the yield vs a max skilled Retriever with T1 strip miners. Max skill venture has 44.5% of the yield vs a max skilled Mackinaw with T1 strip miners.
So really what it comes down to is, do you enjoy trying to evade pirates while you mine, or do you like to only have to worry about a few suicide gankers and rats that will crumble under your drones while making more isk? Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
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