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Lady Manus
Lumen et Umbra
12
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Posted - 2013.06.17 14:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
After having done about 200 site in low and null secs mostly, I'd like to post a few comments with the hope of improving the overall exploration experience.
Goods: 1 - In spite of early testing, the minigame is fun. Especially the hardest ones requires thinking some planning and some luck, so good job CCP! 2 - The loot is fair: even solo I mostly do the same isks as before 3 - the future looks bright: CCP can easilly impove it in the future with more options, modules etcc.... 4 - It actually improve group play: easier to bring in friends and corpm8s withou sacrificing solo play
Bads: 1 - The miningame is too long and eventually too boring: when u do many of em, having to open 6 cans is very very repetitive and boring 2 - No NPCs means less things to face, less strategy and too mucheasy and boredom 3 - Having to sacrifice a mid slot only to scan for a cool BPC is really bad! Without a scanner you go totally random 4 - The bad plexes are still all there (drone ones, useless faction ones etc...) was odyseey suposed to fix that too?
Suggestions: 1 - Put in NPCs again! (ah ladar sites with hacking containers still have NPCs in them) . If you fail hacking more npcs! 2 - make the hackling containers much less 1 to 2/3 max! Or its really too boring! Improve the loot accordingly 3 - make the spawing containers colored by the rarity of the items inside (no more cargo scanning!!!) 4 - Fix combat plexes PLEASE!
LM
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Fr00b Snap
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 15:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Lady Manus wrote:
Goods: 1 - In spite of early testing, the minigame is fun. Especially the hardest ones requires thinking some planning and some luck, so good job CCP!
4 - It actually improve group play: easier to bring in friends and corpm8s withou sacrificing solo play
Every single time i plan to not run into any virus surpressors, restoration nodes etc. It always fails, need better plan i guess. If you bring friends into sites to loot the spew you are just sacrificing your income, because you can loot good cans alone without any problem. |
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
104
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 15:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Quote:3 - make the spawing containers colored by the rarity of the items inside (no more cargo scanning!!!)
I like this idea, but maybe a little different. Disable cargo scan but give a spew can with a rare item a different color. It would allow to somewhat balance the loot spew for group play as far as the regular loot drops go yet not screw solo explorers over the goodies or make group play/multiboxing a way more effective method for farming. It would really just give the second (lower skilled) guy a means for some decent enough beginner income which i think always was the intention.
Alkso agree with the npc's of course. Too easy to farm the sites in cheap frig. |
Hyku P'tiboo
The Gray Rabbits
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 15:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Alkso agree with the npc's of course. Too easy to farm the sites in cheap frig. I like that there is no NPC because that offered me the posibility to change career path with the very few skill points I had. If I could not have done that I would have quitted the game again.
BTW I love the mini game.
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Skeln Thargensen
The Scope Gallente Federation
179
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Posted - 2013.06.17 15:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
surely the player pirates are enough of a threat? i had a nasty moment with a 'dictor yesterday, had to juke like mad to not get decloaked. freelance space bum |
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
104
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 15:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
I have my mind mostly on nullsec sites. Ther's many quiet regions there, not many player pirates around. If you can run sites in low you can run sites in null for better rewards and with lower risks as it stands. I see plenty ppl farming there in frigs, not even bothered in the slightest by other players nearby. Something needs to be done to balance that out. But i offered other ideas then just npc rats in past threads: Higher skill requirements for hacking sites in null, damage output to the ship by defensive nodes. |
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
29
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 18:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lady Manus wrote:... the minigame is fun...
...The minigame is too long and eventually too boring: ....is very very repetitive and boring So in the same post you claim it is both fun and repetitive and boring. Well, covering all bases, are we?
I personally fnd it hard to judge this feature without knowing what the actual goal was. Did they want to make it something for and only for the newest players? I guess its a success in that regard, too bad it doesn't scale beyond that.
The issue of solo farming in 0.0 is hardly an issue of the mini game. I did this with the old system in cloaky setups without any issues. 0.0 is in many parts a completely deserted wasteland, devoid of all life. I have a char in 0.0 since Odyssey hit, I have encountered less then ten other players TOTAL. None made an attempt at my life. Most exciting part of the whole endeavour is scanning down a wormhole pipe to a trade hub.
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8386
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 19:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hyku P'tiboo wrote:Johan Toralen wrote:Alkso agree with the npc's of course. Too easy to farm the sites in cheap frig. I like that there is no NPC because that offered me the posibility to change career path with the very few skill points I had. If I could not have done that I would have quitted the game again. BTW I love the mini game. This is a perfect example of the problem that's been plaguing Eve for the past couple of years.
Too many lazy 'Instant Gratification' junkies running around constantly crying to be coddled. Obviously CCP has now turned a blind eye and deaf ear to the actual core mechanics of Eve in their pursuit of the almighty dollar.
Tis a sad day indeed.
DMC |
Nitocriss
Pulse Heavy Industries
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 19:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Hyku P'tiboo wrote:Johan Toralen wrote:Alkso agree with the npc's of course. Too easy to farm the sites in cheap frig. I like that there is no NPC because that offered me the posibility to change career path with the very few skill points I had. If I could not have done that I would have quitted the game again. BTW I love the mini game. This is a perfect example of the problem that's been plaguing Eve for the past couple of years. Too many lazy 'Instant Gratification' junkies running around constantly crying to be coddled. Obviously CCP has now turned a blind eye and deaf ear to the actual core mechanics of Eve in their pursuit of the almighty dollar. Tis a sad day indeed. DMC
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VulpusFox
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 07:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lady Manus wrote: Bads: 1 - The miningame is too long and eventually too boring: when u do many of em, having to open 6 cans is very very repetitive and boring
I think you're doing something wrong, i speed through all but the hardest of them.
In all honesty I wouldn't mind a mini-game with more complex problem solving needed.
Quote: 2 - No NPCs means less things to face, less strategy and too mucheasy and boredom
Ya its a bit easier, but except for the vets who have T3's rats meant. Scanning down the site and coming back in a combat ship. That gets really tedious and its harder to find friends who are willing to fly their T3 deep out into space for chance loot.
If anything i'd say no npc's has made it so much better. Now I can fly through WH's deep into hostile null blocs and run sites and better enjoy the high adrenaline that's supposed to come with deep space exploration and not just putter around my local constellation.
Quote: 3 - Having to sacrifice a mid slot only to scan for a cool BPC is really bad! Without a scanner you go totally random
I don't have a problem with this? I fit scanner both analyzers and an MWD on my anathema. I guess maybe you got a ship where your midslots are gimped to have all 4 needed midslot modules?
Quote: 4 - The bad plexes are still all there (drone ones, useless faction ones etc...) was odyseey suposed to fix that too?
Ya I agree with that. as well as there really is a lack of variety when it comes to exploration sites. I like exploring I like the unknown. But even when i travel to a system across the universe and run their sites I find i'm just running essentially copies under a different name. From an explorer standpoint that's a bit of a buzzkill.
Quote: Suggestions: 1 - Put in NPCs again! (ah ladar sites with hacking containers still have NPCs in them) . If you fail hacking more npcs! 2 - make the hackling containers much less 1 to 2/3 max! Or its really too boring! Improve the loot accordingly 3 - make the spawing containers colored by the rarity of the items inside (no more cargo scanning!!!) 4 - Fix combat plexes PLEASE!
LM
1- No 2-No, if you get bored that easily or that slow at solving the puzzle that's you're own fault 3- This is a terrible idea. The spawning containers were meant to encourage you to bring friends. Also coloring them would remove the essentially second mini game from it and make it even tedious. Why even rush when the cans tell you exactly which you should be grabbing. Just terrible and lazy idea. |
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8402
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 21:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
I find nothing good with the mini hacking game or the loot can spew afterwards.
It has become nothing more than a click fest and the actual isk worth of loot gained for completing these sites has been hit hard by the nerf bat. The mini hacking game takes up too much time which only creates undue exposure to attack.
It is not skill based. It is not exploration. It is not Eve.
DMC
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Lara Dantreb
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
19
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 21:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Quick question : what is the maximum attainable virus strenght ? 40 ? ----á-á Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005-á --- --- -á-á-á-á-á-á BUT NOT ATM :)-á-á-á --- |
VulpusFox
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 21:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
Lara Dantreb wrote:Quick question : what is the maximum attainable virus strenght ? 40 ?
Theres an implant that can give you an additional +5
I've been trying to figure out how the Cov-ops bonus is dished out to the analyzers it doesn't seem consistant and when I checked it just said a flat 10 per a lvl
Is that 10 percent, 10 points? is it split between HP and strength weirdly? |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
852
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 22:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:I find nothing good with the mini hacking game or the loot can spew afterwards.
It has become nothing more than a click fest and the actual isk worth of loot gained for completing these sites has been hit hard by the nerf bat. The mini hacking game takes up too much time which only creates undue exposure to attack.
It is not skill based. It is not exploration. It is not Eve.
DMC
A lot this, the hacking system looks completely "strange" to me. Once you've trained your skills this shouldn't be enough and the lower secirity systems you go the skill level required shuld go up, untill there I'm ok.
But then the minigame it self doesn't require thinking or logic from what I've tested, and I've done a toncrap of relique sites/data, it's a gambling game either you're cocky get straight to the good node and loot crap, or no matter what you do or think how can you do the thing the shini BPC and parts you just saw in the can goes pouf.
Franckly prefer the old system based on skill level, then the rats thing indeed changing it is nice but replace it by such a click fest gambling minigame and can spew is horrible. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Fr00b Snap
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 22:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
VulpusFox wrote:Lara Dantreb wrote:Quick question : what is the maximum attainable virus strenght ? 40 ? Theres an implant that can give you an additional +5 I've been trying to figure out how the Cov-ops bonus is dished out to the analyzers it doesn't seem consistant and when I checked it just said a flat 10 per a lvl Is that 10 percent, 10 points? is it split between HP and strength weirdly?
T1 analyzer have base strength of 20, T2 have 30. Cov ops ship gives you flat 10 strength bonus. There is no implant or rig that gives you virus strength, but there is implant which decreases analyzer cycle time. |
kilteroff
Touring New Eden
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 00:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
I strongly oppose putting NPC's back in. Just my vote. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
10
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 02:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Fr00b Snap wrote:Lady Manus wrote:
Goods: 1 - In spite of early testing, the minigame is fun. Especially the hardest ones requires thinking some planning and some luck, so good job CCP!
4 - It actually improve group play: easier to bring in friends and corpm8s withou sacrificing solo play
Every single time i plan to not run into any virus surpressors, restoration nodes etc. It always fails, need better plan i guess. If you bring friends into sites to loot the spew you are just sacrificing your income, because you can loot good cans alone without any problem.
Beyond some simple rules of thumb:
- Don't mess with walls until you have to - Don't open caches until you have to - Don't reveal more than one node at a choke point until you're past it - Pick up goodies immediately - ect.
The strategy is all reactionary. I can't tell if you're just moaning about the randomness (it is a little high imo, but exploration has always been about excitement derived from randomness) or if you legitimately haven't figured the game out, so you'll have to forgive me if I rant a bit.
The hisec game is fairly boring, both because it's fairly easy with decent skills and because the utilities are less reactionary; it really doesn't matter when you use self repair unless you're wasting a turn with a restoration node up - also rare in hisec.
The greater variety of utilities and abundance of suppressors and restoration nodes makes the low-nullsec cans a lot more interesting with marginal skills. Again, there are some obvious rules of thumb: - Save utilities unless you're otherwise ****** - Kill restorations immediately unless you're otherwise ****** - Use kernel rot to take out anti-virus's in lieu of mitigating factors - Secondary vectors are good against suppressors - ect.
It's when you're otherwise ****** that you have some not-so-obvious choices to make - Number of nodes opened up vs. health lost when facing multiple blocks - Do you keep going hoping for a utility but risking a restoration node when you hit a suppressor? - Do you risk leaving the restoration node up or go too low to take out the core if you find it? - Do you open some caches and risk a suppressor/restoration? - Do you open some caches to buy turns for a multi-turn utility? - Do you speed up and make mistakes because you're in a dangerous system? - ect.
I wouldn't play the game if it wasn't attached to exploration, but it's better than any of the other hacking/lock minigames I've played. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
10
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 02:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nam Dnilb wrote:[quote=Lady Manus]I have a char in 0.0 since Odyssey hit, I have encountered less then ten other players TOTAL. None made an attempt at my life. Most exciting part of the whole endeavour is scanning down a wormhole pipe to a trade hub.
Where/when is this exactly? I've seen a couple people say it, but I can't spend a night out there without having to dodge a few bubbles and avoid a couple honeypots with varying degrees of subtlety. |
Fr00b Snap
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 09:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:
The strategy is all reactionary. I can't tell if you're just moaning about the randomness (it is a little high imo, but exploration has always been about excitement derived from randomness) or if you legitimately haven't figured the game out, so you'll have to forgive me if I rant a bit.
All the tips you gave are will are helpful, but i`m pretty sure everyone have them figured out after like 5 mini-games. There is no plan or strategy, when you hit obstacles you need to choose most effective solution. Second grade math with some common sense mixed in, nothing else. If random decides that you will need to be bent over, you will bend over and take can explosion in your face, plan all you want. |
Jonas Staal
Silver Octopus Infernal Octopus
8
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 10:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lady Manus wrote:After having done about 200 site in low and null secs mostly, I'd like to post a few comments with the hope of improving the overall exploration experience.
4 - The bad plexes are still all there (drone ones, useless faction ones etc...) was odyseey suposed to fix that too? 4 - Fix combat plexes PLEASE!
Put usefull stuff in drone sites! |
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Lady Manus
Lumen et Umbra
13
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 11:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ty to all of you that added useful comments to my initial posts.
A few more elaborations:
1 - Yes minigame is fun and boring at the same time: it requires strategy and thought (in the hardest ones at least I manage to complete 95% of em with 110/30 stats an its not easy) but there are simply too many cans... after a while you hate this farming, reduce the cans inrcrease lenght and difficult!!!!
2 - NPCs are needed imho, at least in null secs ones.... much more interesting and put in better loot then!
3 - The minigame window is too big and not resizable: you can easily d-scan and looking the target list while hacking
4 - FIX THE OTHER PLEXES: WHY WE DO HAVE SO MANY USELESS DUNGEONS NO ONE RUNS?????
5 - Improve the loot of high lever plexes (from DED 7 to 10): why the average value of DED 5 and 6 shall be consistenly much higher than 7,8,9 and 10??? Just add rare BPCs in the high level ones and you r done
6 - Fix faction battleships: why Rattlesnake is so bad performing compared to machariel??? (ok well this is a bit off-topic but would help rebalancing loot value in some plexes)
7 - Where the ex-static D1 and D2 are gone???? I never find em anymore in high and low secs....
8 - FIX DRONE PLEXES PLSSS!!!
My 2 cents, LM |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
853
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 11:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jonas Staal wrote:Lady Manus wrote:After having done about 200 site in low and null secs mostly, I'd like to post a few comments with the hope of improving the overall exploration experience.
4 - The bad plexes are still all there (drone ones, useless faction ones etc...) was odyseey suposed to fix that too? 4 - Fix combat plexes PLEASE!
Put useful stuff in drone sites!
Indeed, drone sites could get some love and specific modules, I'm one of these loving hull tank, it's silly but yeah me likes and would like to see faction modules drop like reinforced bulkheads and useful hull reps
So much useful pvp stuff to add, special drone descriptors for drone invention and give them the Navy ones power, specific sub cap Drone Upgrade module limited at 2 per ship, Drone control range modules, Drone omnilinks and dmg augmentators, drone and sentry rigs.
Back on track, I've spent some time doing some 1st grade math yesterdays and for a 300M investment +1 scout I should be able to do about 1+B in a couple hours doing sites but nothing about hack, just cloaking on the site and gank the explorers on top of getting shini KM's, most often those are cloak nulli T3's. This sucks, I'd rather do the sites my self or compete for sites but this click fest is about to kill me. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
dexington
Dexington Corporation
668
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 11:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Nam Dnilb wrote:[quote=Lady Manus]I have a char in 0.0 since Odyssey hit, I have encountered less then ten other players TOTAL. None made an attempt at my life. Most exciting part of the whole endeavour is scanning down a wormhole pipe to a trade hub. Where/when is this exactly? I've seen a couple people say it, but I can't spend a night out there without having to dodge a few bubbles and avoid a couple honeypots with varying degrees of subtlety.
I daily run into people who scanning down the data and relic sites looking for "easy" kills, but playing the hacking game while running d-scan and keeping and eye on local and the overview just makes the mini-game seem less boring. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
dexington
Dexington Corporation
668
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 11:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lady Manus wrote:2 - NPCs are needed imho, at least in null secs ones.... much more interesting and put in better loot then!
Adding the npc's just force people to dual box with T3/T2 + covert ops, without really adding anything to the game.
At least now people have a choice, you can do the "free for all" hacking sites or the more difficult, and often more risky, combat sites. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
853
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 11:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
dexington wrote:Lady Manus wrote:2 - NPCs are needed imho, at least in null secs ones.... much more interesting and put in better loot then!
Adding the npc's just force people to dual box with T3/T2 + covert ops, without really adding anything to the game. At least now people have a choice, you can do the "free for all" hacking sites or the more difficult, and often more risky, combat sites.
It will add something: better and easier juicy targets to kill but will not solve any of the problems of this new system. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
116
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 18:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
Quote:Adding the npc's just force people to dual box with T3/T2 + covert op
No. The way it was on Sisi was that a single cruiser spawned in nullsec after failure. You can still run the sites just fine solo only have to bring a ship with a little tank or dps. It really just keeps the cheap frigs away, thereby reducing the number of people willing to ride the bandwagon and making it more profitable again for the rest of us. |
Noriko Mai
857
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 20:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
The worst thing is that you sometime get stuck in the data thing. And sometimes there are invisible barriers in the site that slows you down to zero and let your ship do the drunken dance. |
dexington
Dexington Corporation
668
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 06:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Quote:Adding the npc's just force people to dual box with T3/T2 + covert op No. The way it was on Sisi was that a single cruiser spawned in nullsec after failure. You can still run the sites just fine solo only have to bring a ship with a little tank or dps.
I only know of 3 ships design for doing relic and data sites, the exploration frigate, covert ops and T3 cruisers with Emergent Locus Analyser subsystem. Some of the frigates are unable to deal dps, eg. the helios only have 2 high slots which are used for cloak and probe launcher, and you probably can't kill a cruiser with the one drone it's able to use.
Which means the T3 really is the only viable option, and most people flying something expensive around low/null use a cloaked scout.
Johan Toralen wrote:It really just keeps the cheap frigs away, thereby reducing the number of people willing to ride the bandwagon and making it more profitable again for the rest of us.
It's already very profitable, and i like the idea that some week old newbie can take the chance, buy a frigate go to null and maybe make a fortune, if he makes it back alive. That is more in the spirit of exploration then the older players having a monopoly on null sec exploration, because it require the skillpoint, knowledge and isk to safely fly a T3 around null.
Besides many of the explorers flying frigates around null can fly better ship, there is just no reason to do it, you can buy a lot of covert ops for the price of a T3. You would not make a lot more isk by adding rats to the sites, you would just see more of the bigger ships. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Laxen
Romania Elite Happy Cartel
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 09:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
Lady Manus wrote:After having done about 200 site in low and null secs mostly, I'd like to post a few comments with the hope of improving the overall exploration experience.
Goods: 1 - In spite of early testing, the minigame is fun. Especially the hardest ones requires thinking some planning and some luck, so good job CCP! 2 - The loot is fair: even solo I mostly do the same isks as before 3 - the future looks bright: CCP can easilly impove it in the future with more options, modules etcc.... 4 - It actually improve group play: easier to bring in friends and corpm8s withou sacrificing solo play
Bads: 1 - The miningame is too long and eventually too boring: when u do many of em, having to open 6 cans is very very repetitive and boring 2 - No NPCs means less things to face, less strategy and too mucheasy and boredom 3 - Having to sacrifice a mid slot only to scan for a cool BPC is really bad! Without a scanner you go totally random 4 - The bad plexes are still all there (drone ones, useless faction ones etc...) was odyseey suposed to fix that too?
Suggestions: 1 - Put in NPCs again! (ah ladar sites with hacking containers still have NPCs in them) . If you fail hacking more npcs! 2 - make the hackling containers much less 1 to 2/3 max! Or its really too boring! Improve the loot accordingly 3 - make the spawing containers colored by the rarity of the items inside (no more cargo scanning!!!) 4 - Fix combat plexes PLEASE!
LM
Even if my English is not very good, I hope you understand what I mean.
What does Lady Manus here is quite right, it is not liked any new form of view.
Suggestions made by it are perfectly justified and I support them.
This is my opinion, if you can count it a gain for others.
Regards, Laxen
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Nicolle Arwen
Romania Elite Happy Cartel
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 11:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
Hello!
I have to write myself several times in connection with the new scanning mode. CCP do not understand why this game becoming more difficult. I looked at things as simple and efficient for all.
So ... much loss of time associated with the worst way to collect loot. A matter which is not good to anyone random.
My suggestion is to return to its original shape.
Good day and good luck hunting.
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