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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1166
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:14:00 -
[151] - Quote
Tanya Fox wrote: It's obvious that a larger group is likely to win, unless it's a large group of shuttles. But that's not the issue of the thread.
see I was responding to something this idiot posted:
Tanya Fox wrote: Ganking is a bit one sided, they're usually an organised group they kill the target, don't care if their ships are destroyed because they get the insurance and they have a pick-up person ready to loot the wreaks. So the gankers get the loot plus insurance and the laugh, the guy getting ganked just gets the insurance which is nothing to his/her loses. Loses depending what kind of target.
Don't know about you but it seems one sided to me.
wherein the poster of this abortion of an argument argued that because an organized group can do something to a lone person, it is one-sided in favor of the side that requires an organized group because they have organization |
Rocky Deadshot
In The Goo EVE Trade Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:15:00 -
[152] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Rocky Deadshot wrote:I think the biggest issue that people are having is the relative cost of exhumers, how little they actually make, and how easy they are to kill. Whether it's an issue or not depends on whether they are able to earn back that cost between ganks. How much do they earn, net, after all costs are included?
Off the top of my head its to the order of 20+hrs (if ice mining) and about 15+hrs (for mining), depending on skills, fit, and a few other parameters. Doesn't seem like much.... but consider this... I can buy and fit a drake and pay it off doing lvl4 missions in about 2hrs. I can buy and pay of a scimitar in 2hrs doing incursions.... In fact... in 15hrs of doing incursions i can buy a loki (1bil isk fit) and 2hulks.
Both the missions and the incursion fits are inherently safer due to constantly moving, as well as, they all are harder to kill. And trust me after awhile of running vanguards, you begin to feel like your roleplaying a bot.
It would be one thing if the ship required to gank a hulk/mack required about the same amount of isk as those ships... but they dont, goons figured out the perfect formula for miner tears. This is specifically for mining... gankers should be able to take down those 2bil faction fit bs without spending that much. But for mining... the ship is being taken down by a single pilot most times... sometimes 2... and they have no hope of surviving. The fact of the matter is that Exhumers can't tank.. by design, is that fair? idk.
Maybe a new set of exhumer like ships that are similar, lower yield, but have the ability to tank ... at least more than the current ones is the path we should take. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1166
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:16:00 -
[153] - Quote
plus the whining about insurance is fairly misplaced as the loss on a battleship even post-insurance, which I throw at things willy-nilly when it's the tool for the job, is greater than the loss on an uninsured brutix |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1166
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:17:00 -
[154] - Quote
Rocky Deadshot wrote: The fact of the matter is that Exhumers can't tank.. by design, is that fair? idk.
Maybe a new set of exhumer like ships that are similar, lower yield, but have the ability to tank ... at least more than the current ones.
if you simply must mine and can't survive in eve without mining mine with a rokh
simply stay out of our ice belts |
Tanya Fox
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:19:00 -
[155] - Quote
Elise DarkStar wrote:Weaselior has captured the main issue. Even if you don't agree with his conclusion, the terms in which he is framing the issue is the correct way to approach it. If you can convincingly argue that the effort, innovation, organization, etc required by the ganker is too low relative to the options availabe to counter ganking (avoiding being ganked), then you will have a good chance that CCP and the rest of the community will take you seriously. I have yet to see such an argument, though I am definitely open to the possibility and would actually like to see it happen just to watch Goons cry (not that I dislike Goons, but I like anyone's crying more than I like them).
High sec gate camp with a pick-up or two and people scanning in trade hub systems, is not that highly organised. More like a spider sat in a web with a few lookout giving a heads-up when something interesting is coming their way.
Now if they had to get off their butts and actually go looking for their targets then I might be a little bit impressed. |
Elise DarkStar
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
94
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:22:00 -
[156] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:plus the whining about insurance is fairly misplaced as the loss on a battleship even post-insurance, which I throw at things willy-nilly when it's the tool for the job, is greater than the loss on an uninsured brutix
Whining about insurance is really counterproductive, as the whiners may even get it as their one chance at a "fix", and then they'll be that much more enraged when it actually doesn't make a lick of difference. My guess is that you'd have more people ganking for the sheer joy as a statement against hisec whining, which is much harder to counter than those who gank for profit. |
Rocky Deadshot
In The Goo EVE Trade Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:22:00 -
[157] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Rocky Deadshot wrote: The fact of the matter is that Exhumers can't tank.. by design, is that fair? idk.
Maybe a new set of exhumer like ships that are similar, lower yield, but have the ability to tank ... at least more than the current ones.
if you simply must mine and can't survive in eve without mining mine with a rokh simply stay out of our ice belts
I would rather jet can mine in a bantum that mine ice. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1166
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:22:00 -
[158] - Quote
Tanya Fox wrote:
High sec gate camp with a pick-up or two and people scanning in trade hub systems, is not that highly organised. More like a spider sat in a web with a few lookout giving a heads-up when something interesting is coming their way.
Now if they had to get off their butts and actually go looking for their targets then I might be a little bit impressed.
you mean a 16+ person camp (for freighter killing), actively scanning for people who failed to follow a basic mathmatical formula autopiloting to jita?
yes, that's a real lack of organization compared to the autopiloting guy |
Citizen Smif
Incursion Runners inc.
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:22:00 -
[159] - Quote
I looked throught that KB... The miners that got killed were ******* ********. Everyone knows that at the moment there's a lot of suicide ganking going on towards miners (especially mackinaws in gallente space) yet these people don't adapt their tactics.. Fit a ******* tank lol.. Or atleast be facing something you can warp to quickly and keep an eye out for suspicious behaviour. Christ.. PvP players adapt there tactics all the time, why can't the miners do that as well?
The truth is all of you miners just want to be exempt from risk. You want an absolutely risk-free safe way of generating ISK, this isn't eve so gtfo. Lol i never thought i'd be someone who would post one of these comments but i'm getting so sick of it now..
Btw suicide ganking isn't risk free.. You don't make 0 losses for losing a ship lol. Insurance pay-outs are at the mineral cost of the hull, not the market price. I wouldn't mind it if the insurance mechanics were changed for high sec ganking (i'm not a suicide ganker lol) but seriously stop twisting the facts to fit your pathetic care-bear arguments.
This thread has made me decide i'm going to go suicide ganking tonight, just for the lulz. |
Elise DarkStar
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
94
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:24:00 -
[160] - Quote
Tanya Fox wrote:High sec gate camp with a pick-up or two and people scanning in trade hub systems, is not that highly organised. More like a spider sat in a web with a few lookout giving a heads-up when something interesting is coming their way.
Now if they had to get off their butts and actually go looking for their targets then I might be a little bit impressed.
You have absolutely no clue how much effort goes into effective ganking.
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1168
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:25:00 -
[161] - Quote
Elise DarkStar wrote:Weaselior wrote:plus the whining about insurance is fairly misplaced as the loss on a battleship even post-insurance, which I throw at things willy-nilly when it's the tool for the job, is greater than the loss on an uninsured brutix Whining about insurance is really counterproductive, as the whiners may even get it as their one chance at a "fix", and then they'll be that much more enraged when it actually doesn't make a lick of difference. My guess is that you'd have more people ganking for the sheer joy as a statement against hisec whining, which is much harder to counter than those who gank for profit.
yeah ganking for profit just isn't that much fun, there's usually a better way to make the money unless you're hunting 2b+ mission runner whales, and freighter ganking is largely boring as you wait for the right one to come along - most freighter ganking ops we've done have gotten bored and just nailed the next one that came through
even when you turn a profit, it's the rage from the guy who just lost his missionrunning boat that really makes it worthwhile rather than the 100m you might have made |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1168
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:29:00 -
[162] - Quote
Citizen Smif wrote:[This thread has made me decide i'm going to go suicide ganking tonight, just for the lulz.
if you want some tips:
for a mackinaw, anywhere but gallente space, you can solo it in a brutix and you can solo it in a thorax with good skills if it's not tanked (look for a DCII or shield extenders) - there's a couple fits for a mack that can beat a solo brutix but they're so inefficent for mining you won't see them anywhere but gallente space
hulks if untanked can be taken out by a brutix but not a thorax in .7 or below, again look for DCII, shield extenders (only mediums really matter) or reinforced bulkhrads
if you see a group of 4+ macks around an orca, fit a typhoon with 8 smartbombs and cap injectors: you can time the cap injection to get another round of smartbombs off after concord neuts you, and done properly you'll kill them all at once. if you use two, you'll definitely get them all, and their pods
if you don't want to deal with sec status problems, stop before you hit -2. if you don't care, you can find our guide to ganking at -5 around |
Spurty
V0LTA VOLTA Corp
45
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:29:00 -
[163] - Quote
Really is quite alarmingly dumb sounding when you break it down to it basics.
Why oh why can't people that can engineer warp drives, engineer a better 'ice chipper' ?
The change needed to make this "goon holy war" inert and flaccid is for ice to be mined exactly the same way as other ore.
Didn't get to sit there for an entire cycle as you had to warp off? Not an entire waste of your play time, you just need to return to make up enough to reprocess.
Mining should be getting crazy lucrative now with this pointed attack.
I'm actually all for it myself. Its emerging content and player driven story line stuff. I'm just confused by the lack of imagination here. After all http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/necessity-is-the-mother-of-invention.html
---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
900
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:30:00 -
[164] - Quote
Rocky Deadshot wrote:Off the top of my head its to the order of 20+hrs (if ice mining) and about 15+hrs (for mining), depending on skills, fit, and a few other parameters. Doesn't seem like much.... but consider this... I can buy and fit a drake and pay it off doing lvl4 missions in about 2hrs. I can buy and pay of a scimitar in 2hrs doing incursions.... GǪas can the gankers, but they don't because they don't want something as boring and as safe as L4s GÇö they want to gank. Just like the miners want to mine.
The point here is instead that, unless those miners are losing a Hulk/Mac for every 15GÇô20h in the belts, their risk vs. reward is far better than the gankers, who generally operate at a loss or at best (if they have some help/alts) at break-even. So when people ask GÇ£how does the loss of the miner stack up against that of the gankerGÇ¥ or when they ask GÇ£where are the risksGÇ¥, there is the answer: the losses aren't nearly as bad, and the risks are significantGǪ
GǪthe actual GÇ£problemGÇ¥ is that the gankers are not concerned about the risks GÇö in fact, one might rather suspect that the risk is the draw rather than some kind of hindrance.
One might even venture to guess that this is why this whole discussion exists: because the miners assume that measure that would stop them from doing something will stop others, when it's not really a factor for those others and the solution will both fail to solve the perceived problem, and cause entirely new problems to pop up. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1168
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:31:00 -
[165] - Quote
generally speaking the best rage comes from relatively new players, operating alone
crushing big packs of macks won't get you a response for a little while since they're bots, but when the person comes back it's usually quite delightful |
Tanya Fox
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:35:00 -
[166] - Quote
What makes me laugh is why do people that gank always think that somebody that speaks out against it mines.
I don't mine, find it boring tried it years back, it's just not my thing.
Also don't haul anything, not even that keen on high-sec.
And as for tears, got none of those, sorry :) |
Razzor Death
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:35:00 -
[167] - Quote
We lose our HonouR |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1168
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:40:00 -
[168] - Quote
Tanya Fox wrote:What makes me laugh is why do people that gank always think that somebody that speaks out against it mines.
I don't mine, find it boring tried it years back, it's just not my thing.
Also don't haul anything, not even that keen on high-sec.
And as for tears, got none of those, sorry :)
so you don't have the excuse that your extremely dumb opinions are due to self-interest, that's not really a positive |
March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
28
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:41:00 -
[169] - Quote
Razzor Death wrote:We lose our HonouR you can't loose thing you have never had |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
900
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:41:00 -
[170] - Quote
Tanya Fox wrote:What makes me laugh is why do people that gank always think that somebody that speaks out against it mines. Just like how the victimes always think that someone who condones ganks is a ganker. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
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March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
28
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:44:00 -
[171] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tanya Fox wrote:What makes me laugh is why do people that gank always think that somebody that speaks out against it mines. Just like how the victimes always think that someone who condones ganks is a ganker. not exactly. Usually people who support gankers just like "tears".... While supporters of defense like smart playstyle and industrial part of the game. |
Ana Vyr
93
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:46:00 -
[172] - Quote
Tippia, you implied that losing a Hulk is not a net loss to a miner. Can you explain the reasoning behind that? |
Rocky Deadshot
In The Goo EVE Trade Alliance
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:47:00 -
[173] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tanya Fox wrote:What makes me laugh is why do people that gank always think that somebody that speaks out against it mines. Just like how the victimes always think that someone who condones ganks is a ganker.
I just assume most people in this game are borderline sociopaths... then I'm not surprised by anything
|
Hecatonis
Ascension Manufacturing
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:47:00 -
[174] - Quote
David Cedarbridge wrote:Hecatonis wrote:also incorrect, as the ratio still leads itself in favor of the ganker, 3 fitting brutix still comes out to less then one fitting hulk. thus the gankers win
Lets see if you can ignore my alliance tag for long enough to make a coherent point.
ignoring the fact that i have never made a direct comment to your alliance, i take it you are not going to hold your ground for too long
Quote: Why does the ratio need to favor the gankee over the ganker? What sort of special place does the victim of the gank have that they should stand to lose less always than the ganker? It would seem that piracy has always been a possible gainful employ in EVE and would cease to be as interesting or gainful if the ratios were to be changed. Which would lead to the assumption that the game should favor the passive player over the active one. What logic is attached to this other than some concept that the non-consensual PVP should be hindered in the favor of more protections for players that would like to participate in all of the gains of an open market and an open playing field, without worrying about taking a loss for it.
In short, you're failing the burden of proof of your own argument. You state that this ratio favors the gankers but you fail to state why this is actually a problem and why it should be considered such.
my point is clear, in the current situation there is no situation were a miner "wins". it will always be a greater lose of the miners side regardless of prep, diligence, and tank.
any group of yahoos can create an alt, train it for a couple months warp to zero and pulse smart bombs until the miner's ship and pod are dead.
eve is about risk vs reward, and wars are fought with isk. you are fighting a war that you cannot loose because your tools are better, cheeper, in more supply, take less time ti build, requires less investment, and can be everywhere.
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Tanya Fox
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:47:00 -
[175] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Tanya Fox wrote:What makes me laugh is why do people that gank always think that somebody that speaks out against it mines.
I don't mine, find it boring tried it years back, it's just not my thing.
Also don't haul anything, not even that keen on high-sec.
And as for tears, got none of those, sorry :) so you don't have the excuse that your extremely dumb opinions are due to self-interest, that's not really a positive
Well I'm not that big on self-interest, I think of others too.
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Which was going to be the result from the start anyway, but your arguments no better, or should I say your point of view. |
Karadion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
145
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:49:00 -
[176] - Quote
Hecatonis wrote:my point is clear, in the current situation there is no situation were a miner "wins". it will always be a greater lose of the miners side regardless of prep, diligence, and tank. You aren't supposed to win at mining. If you want to get involved in minerals, go join a drone region alliance.
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:51:00 -
[177] - Quote
Quote:my point is clear, in the current situation there is no situation were a miner "wins". it will always be a greater lose of the miners side regardless of prep, diligence, and tank. You've never seen a failed gank have you?
That is how the miner wins. Make them fail. Either warp off before they can lock you (keeping aligned and moving to one of any pre placed BMs allowing you to go back and forth while mining... yeah its work), or live long enough for Concord to kill them. Or... make fun use of your kill rights, though that is harder IMO. |
Myfanwy Heimdal
Heimdal Freight and Manufacture Inc
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:53:00 -
[178] - Quote
Berendas wrote:[quote=Suddenly Boom]Maybe not my main, .
Does it matter who your main is?
I have three characters; two I use all the time and the third I don't.
Of the two that I use - one is no more main than the other . Yes, one is older than the other but the younger is richer and has better prospects than the elder.
People do get so hung up on this main/alt business when it doesn't appy. |
Rocky Deadshot
In The Goo EVE Trade Alliance
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 16:53:00 -
[179] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Rocky Deadshot wrote:Off the top of my head its to the order of 20+hrs (if ice mining) and about 15+hrs (for mining), depending on skills, fit, and a few other parameters. Doesn't seem like much.... but consider this... I can buy and fit a drake and pay it off doing lvl4 missions in about 2hrs. I can buy and pay of a scimitar in 2hrs doing incursions.... GǪas can the gankers, but they don't because they don't want something as boring and as safe as L4s GÇö they want to gank. Just like the miners want to mine. The point here is instead that, unless those miners are losing a Hulk/Mac for every 15GÇô20h in the belts, their risk vs. reward is far better than the gankers, who generally operate at a loss or at best (if they have some help/alts) at break-even. So when people ask GÇ£how does the loss of the miner stack up against that of the gankerGÇ¥ or when they ask GÇ£where are the risksGÇ¥, there is the answer: the losses aren't nearly as bad, and the risks are significantGǪ GǪthe actual GÇ£problemGÇ¥ is that the gankers are not concerned about the risks GÇö in fact, one might rather suspect that the risk is the draw rather than some kind of hindrance. One might even venture to guess that this is why this whole discussion exists: because the miners assume that measure that would stop them from doing something will stop others, when it's not really a factor for those others and the solution will both fail to solve the perceived problem, and cause entirely new problems to pop up.
Good argument, but I do see one major difference that I should point out.
Gankers that gank to make money... (people who chase down faction fitted BSs) pretty much always make a good payday... they do risk that a bad drop will occur where nothing of extreme value drops, but that is why they go after the ones that have several high value items.
Gankers that gank miners, either for the lolz or as part of a corp initiative, aren't worried about loss of ship. There is no "risk" they know exactly what will happen and the ship is counted as a loss the second its fitted for the gank.
The miner's ship is what makes him money... most gankers probably have alts that make money to fund their tear farming. And 15 to 20hrs of actual in game work gone isn't something miners take lightly.
That being said... I'll stick to my previous suggestion... make a new set of t2 mining barges that have less yield but can actually tank... and ofc make them cost more. |
Tanya Fox
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:08:00 -
[180] - Quote
Karadion wrote:Hecatonis wrote:my point is clear, in the current situation there is no situation were a miner "wins". it will always be a greater lose of the miners side regardless of prep, diligence, and tank. You aren't supposed to win at mining. If you want to get involved in minerals, go join a drone region alliance.
Actually the Drone Regions are very good for alloys off of the rats, recommend it if you ever get the chance, assuming they've not nerfed it.
Although drone parts used to be pretty useless probably still are. |
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