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Sarkelias Anophius
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
1
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Posted - 2013.06.24 16:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello, forums.
I come to you with my first post, concerning a tragic state of affairs in medium weaponry. Lately I have been doing extensive research on medium-range, medium-hull turret-based weapons, and I have reached some conclusions that should warrant dev attention. *disclaimer: Rise or someone already said they would be working on this, I just wanted to get a good thread going for it.
Medium railguns suffer a number of problems. While they have decent range, depending on ammunition, they cover nearly the same gap as Scorch on medium pulse lasers. They do more damage, within certain profiles, while suffering worse tracking - I expect this when comparing them to a "short range" weapons system.
However, railguns compare unfavorably to every other medium range turret weapon that exists - the ONLY context in which they come close is with massive hull damage and tracking bonuses, tracking computers, and excessive damage mods. For instance, I want to fly a t3 tackler on an alt, and a t3 damage dealer on my main. A Loki is filling the tackler role, while I must choose between another Loki, a Proteus, and a Legion for the damage dealer. The Proteus has the best range and ewar flexibility, so I have spent a lot of time working on fits. I have found that, even with its heavily bonused hull and a TC II, railguns will track and apply damage worse in almost every case than equivalent artillery weapons on the Loki, which has no tracking mods apart from its hull bonuses. Overall it's underwhelming, though still usable.
However, if you take medium rails out of the t3 cruiser context, they become utterly unusable. Only the damage/tracking/optimal bonuses found on those hulls make them usable at all. Otherwise, we are faced with a weapons system that has limited range, incredibly poor tracking, little alpha, and very little sustained damage - there is no context of which I am aware in which medium railguns would be preferred over medium beams, pulse, artillery, autocannons, or even blasters with null - they simply can't compete in any field. On some Gallente hulls the tracking issues are abated, but range becomes a factor; on Caldari hulls the range issue is solved, but we are left with no damage and poor tracking.
In light of this somewhat disjointed wall of text, I'd like to throw out some numbers for possible changes:
Give medium rails +10% damage mod, +10% tracking and +5% optimal OR Give medium rails +5% rate of fire, +5% tracking, and +5% optimal
What I would like to see is a niche between pulse lasers (high dps, good tracking, low alpha) and medium artillery (low dps, low tracking, high alpha) while maintaining distinctiveness from medium beam lasers (which have moderate levels of all these things).
I welcome your thoughts on this matter. Hopefully I'm not duplicating some other thread I couldn't find. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
507
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Posted - 2013.06.24 17:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Came expecting an interesting thread on how to give medium rails a reason to exist. Still have no idea why medium rails exist or any idea what they should even do best.
If I understand the basic differences properly, racial weapons are originally intended to be balanced as the opposite of their enemy's weapons. Amarr have extremely accurate weapons with extremely fixed damage types while Minmatar have extremely inaccurate weapons with extremely variable damage types. Gallente have extremely short range weapons with high tracking and high damage while Caldari have extremely long range weapons with less tracking and less damage. On the other hand, Caldari also have missiles.
Unless we're going to balance turrets irrespective of missiles, it sort of seems as though the existence of missiles complicates the whole "what do we make rails do?" question. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
194
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Posted - 2013.06.24 17:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hybrids suffer from extremes.
Blasters are extreme damage, but such extreme short range as to make them nearly useless. The only reason they are tolerated at all is because fights need to happen in scram/web range anyway, and blasters have about half that range. On the battleship versions they can reach all the way to full web range before going into falloff, with the least damaging configuration possible.
Rails suffer the opposite problems. Poor damage at extreme range. Or they are supposed to. They fare poorly compared to pulse, and the very fact that pulse range enters a conversation about railgun performance suggests there is something wrong with pulse lasers.
Rails, to be where they should be, need a bit more range and a bit more damage.
Projectiles just have it too good. Zero Cap, Selectable damage, medium range, good damage. They don't have the extremes of hybrids, but their capless nature make using other mods to control range easier, and their selectable damage offset the lower output. They are the best of all worlds.
Honestly, I don't think it's a case of rails being terribly underpowered, but rather a case of projectiles being too good in too many areas, and pulse lasers having far too much range |
Sarkelias Anophius
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
1
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Posted - 2013.06.24 17:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
I can expound on that. I wanted to go over the perceived problems before projecting my own vision of what railguns should be able to do.
What I would like to see is a weapon that can reach further and do higher applied damage than scorch - but without stepping on the alpha toes of artillery and beams.
Picture, if you will, a weapons system capable of delivering 3-400 dps at 30-60km, with enough tracking to switch to close-range ammo and be effective - not as effective as pulse or blasters - but still hard-hitting within 10-20km. I believe this weapon system should be either based on alpha damage - not to the extremes of artillery - or dps based, but NOT a combination of the two. If I were to choose an "identity" for this weapon, it would be one that covers the 30-60km gap with better applied dps and less alpha than artillery or beams, but can perform with high tracking and moderate dps at close range.
Basically, I think railguns should be an incredibly flexible weapon. The physics of their operation, in my mind, lends itself to this. I'd like to see high application of 2-500 dps between 10-60km, scaling down with range, but remaining proportionately high, and retaining a key point of application - tracking, tracking tracking. Not extreme dps, not extreme alpha, but excellent application. A jack of all trades, as it were, good for the unpredictable situations - analogous to the role that rail Megathrons are filling in the large class, useful at almost any range.
I should have included this in the OP, does this make sense? |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
194
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Posted - 2013.06.24 17:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
You just described large rails
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Sarkelias Anophius
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
1
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Posted - 2013.06.24 17:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:You just described large rails
Funny how that worked out |
Swiftstrike1
Interfector INC. Fade 2 Black
45
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Posted - 2013.06.24 17:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Missiles are not exclusively caldari. You'll find minmatar and amarr ships with bonuses to missiles too. The gallente get drone bonuses on their ship hulls instead of missiles.
Medium rails have a huge variety of optimal ranges depending on ammo (250mm rails have 13km with Jav and 91km with spike!). A fix should start with changing the optimal range penalty on Javelin ammo from -75% to -50% like antimatter. Then the guns themselves need a buff to tracking and a reduction in PG usage. DPS seems fine, maybe slightly low. Could buff with a minor ROF increase.
The biggest problem is the crumby T2 ammo for railguns. Short range is too short and long range is too long. |
Sarkelias Anophius
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
1
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Posted - 2013.06.24 17:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Swiftstrike1 wrote:Missiles are not exclusively caldari. You'll find minmatar and amarr ships with bonuses to missiles too. The gallente get drone bonuses on their ship hulls instead of missiles.
Medium rails have a huge variety of optimal ranges depending on ammo (250mm rails have 13km with Jav and 91km with spike!). A fix should start with changing the optimal range penalty on Javelin ammo from -75% to -50% like antimatter. Then the guns themselves need a buff to tracking and a reduction in PG usage. DPS seems fine, maybe slightly low. Could buff with a minor ROF increase.
The biggest problem is the crumby T2 ammo for railguns. Short range is too short and long range is too long.
I agree with this absolutely. Spike has such long range and low damage as to be nearly useless - there isn't a context in which Aurora or Tremor isn't better in every way.
I also agree that a tracking buff and slight PG reduction would serve them well - but I'd look for more tracking than anything else, really.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
194
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Posted - 2013.06.24 17:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Extra Optimal isn't a problem. Spike would be great if not for the tracking penalty. Javelin does tune the rails down to what I feel would be a more appropriate range for blasters, but I would be happy if it tracked like them too. |
Sarkelias Anophius
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
1
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Posted - 2013.06.24 17:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Extra Optimal isn't a problem. Spike would be great if not for the tracking penalty. Javelin does tune the rails down to what I feel would be a more appropriate range for blasters, but I would be happy if it tracked like them too.
I'll say that if Spike were more like Thorium and reached out to the 40-60km range with reasonable damage, I'd like it a lot more, and would have no complaints about railgun optimal. As a few have posted, a large part of the issue could be addressed with fixes to ammunition - as it stands, faction ammo is the only type really worth using, and it can't cover the gaps. |
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Sarkelias Anophius
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
5
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Posted - 2013.07.10 16:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bump because I forgot about and then remembered this thread and still want more input.
We can either:
Increase some attributes and decrease fitting requirements of the weapons themselves
OR
Significantly increase the effectiveness of their ammunition, especially Spike.
I'm not the only one who cares, right? |
Archare
Sleepless Escorts
94
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Posted - 2013.07.10 17:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
https://twitter.com/CCP_Rise/status/354917980779462656 |
Sarkelias Anophius
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
5
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Posted - 2013.07.10 17:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
I just saw that. Irrelevant bump is irrelevant :V |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
816
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Posted - 2013.07.10 17:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Long range weapon types in general suffer from the fact that all ammo types save for close range faction + t2 are worthless. In the case of rails, there's no useful granularity between I-have-no-tracking-and-infinitely-more-range-than-I-need Spike and I'm-in-Scorch-range Antimatter.
Overhauling ammo mechanics would do a lot to fix medium rails |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
4
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Posted - 2013.07.10 17:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Just a small comment to the pulse laser range, as I understand it, pulse lasers have comparable good range compared to the other two short-range turrets because Amarr slowboat into that range. I could be wrong, but that's my hypothesis on lasers generally being quite accurate weapons; The ships they're on are almost stationary with the other races orbiting. |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2013.07.10 17:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pulses have good tracking? Haha... Compared to what?
You can't compare tracking speed of short range turrets vs. long range turrets. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1253
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Posted - 2013.07.10 17:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Archare wrote:https://twitter.com/CCP_Rise/status/354917980779462656 Makes me wonder why it is being balanced using faction ammo. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
4
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Posted - 2013.07.10 18:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Pulses have good tracking? Haha... Compared to what?
You can't compare tracking speed of short range turrets vs. long range turrets.
Tracking? I never used that word. |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2013.07.10 18:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Pulses have good tracking? Haha... Compared to what?
You can't compare tracking speed of short range turrets vs. long range turrets. Tracking? I never used that word.
OP. Near the end of post:
"What I would like to see is distinctiveness from pulse lasers (high dps, good tracking, low alpha) by giving medium rails the ability to deal higher effective damage at longer range with comparably low alpha..." |
Sarkelias Anophius
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
5
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Posted - 2013.07.10 19:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Pulses have good tracking? Haha... Compared to what?
You can't compare tracking speed of short range turrets vs. long range turrets.
I can when a short range weapon is outclassing a medium range weapon at medium range. |
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Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2013.07.10 19:27:00 -
[21] - Quote
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Pulses have good tracking? Haha... Compared to what?
You can't compare tracking speed of short range turrets vs. long range turrets. I can when a short range weapon is outclassing a medium range weapon at medium range.
FYI, blasters and autocannons have better tracking than pulse lasers. Railguns are long range turrets, not medium range. Artillery and beam lasers are medium range turrets compared to railguns. |
Drake Doe
Sver true blood Public Disorder.
245
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Posted - 2013.07.10 19:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Sarkelias Anophius wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Pulses have good tracking? Haha... Compared to what?
You can't compare tracking speed of short range turrets vs. long range turrets. I can when a short range weapon is outclassing a medium range weapon at medium range. FYI, blasters and autocannons have better tracking than pulse lasers. Railguns are long range turrets, not medium range. Artillery and beam lasers are medium range turrets compared to railguns. Current railgun range is too close to medium pulse lasers, which means it'll always apply less damage because of it's lower than pulse tracking. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2013.07.10 19:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:[quote=Tobias Hareka]Current railgun range is too close to medium pulse lasers, which means it'll always apply less damage because of it's lower than pulse tracking.
"Too close"?
HPL Harbinger + 1 scripted TC: 25,8km + 6,5km 250mm Ferox + 1 TE: 97,2km + 15km |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4004
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Posted - 2013.07.10 19:50:00 -
[24] - Quote
Medium rail fitting needs a serious look. . |
Drake Doe
Sver true blood Public Disorder.
245
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Posted - 2013.07.10 20:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Current railgun range is too close to medium pulse lasers, which means it'll always apply less damage because of it's lower than pulse tracking. "Too close"? HPL Harbinger + 1 scripted TC: 25,8km + 6,5km 250mm Ferox + 1 TE: 97,2km + 15km So railguns should only be used on range bonused hulls, only 3 of which bonus medium hybrid range? "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Sarkelias Anophius
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
6
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 20:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Sarkelias Anophius wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Pulses have good tracking? Haha... Compared to what?
You can't compare tracking speed of short range turrets vs. long range turrets. I can when a short range weapon is outclassing a medium range weapon at medium range. FYI, blasters and autocannons have better tracking than pulse lasers. Railguns are long range turrets, not medium range. Artillery and beam lasers are medium range turrets compared to railguns.
There is little to no difference in the optimal range of railguns and artillery, not nearly enough to be meaningful.
And sure, a rail ferox can hit to 100km. Outside its lock range. Doing 150 dps. That's incredibly useful. What about the CN AM range that would actually get used, in which a pulse boat will outperform it every time? |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2013.07.10 20:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:So railguns should only be used on range bonused hulls, only 3 of which bonus medium hybrid range?
For lols: 250mm Brutix + 1x scripted T2 TC: 74,5km + 19,5km HPL Harbinger + 4x scripted officer TCs: 37,1km + 12,8km |
Drake Doe
Sver true blood Public Disorder.
245
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Posted - 2013.07.10 20:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Drake Doe wrote:So railguns should only be used on range bonused hulls, only 3 of which bonus medium hybrid range? For lols: 250mm Brutix + 1x scripted T2 TC: 74,5km + 19,5km HPL Harbinger + 4x scripted officer TCs: 37,1km + 12,8km While it may have a longer max range, how does it's dps compare using javelin vs scorch? "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Sarkelias Anophius
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
6
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 20:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Drake Doe wrote:So railguns should only be used on range bonused hulls, only 3 of which bonus medium hybrid range? For lols: 250mm Brutix + 1x scripted T2 TC: 74,5km + 19,5km HPL Harbinger + 4x scripted officer TCs: 37,1km + 12,8km
Let me re-emphasize that Spike M is trash and in no way usable when you can fly a naga. I don't care about comparative long-range ammo, I care about usability. |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2013.07.10 20:50:00 -
[30] - Quote
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:Let me re-emphasize that Spike M is trash and in no way usable when you can fly a naga. I don't care about comparative long-range ammo, I care about usability.
Guess what? Zealot, Omen < Oracle |
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