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Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
134
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Posted - 2013.06.27 07:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Problem: Missile Launcher skills are oddly designed compared to Gunnery Turret Skills. This poor design actually makes gunnery turret SP far more valuable and effective than missile launcher SP.
Explanation: When training projectile turrets you start off with small projectile turrets. This skill allows you to use small autocannons and small artillery. In order to train medium projectile turrets you need to train small projectile turrets to 3. in order to train large projectile turrets you need to train medium projectile turrets to 3. This is a stepped progression based system.
In order to specialize in a T2 gun you need all the equivalent sized and smaller base skill trained to V and you need the smaller spec trained to IV. For example to train medium Autocannons you need small and medium projectile turret V and small autocannon spec IV in order to train medium autocannon spec.
This isn't true when dealing with missiles. There is no small missile launcher skill. Instead there is rockets and light missiles. In order to get that same effectiveness as one would get with the small projectile turret skill (being able to use both small autocannons and small artillery) I would need to train TWO skills. This takes far longer.
Because missile launcher SP takes longer to train to an equivalent effectiveness, gunnery turret SP is actually far more valuable and effective than missile launcher SP. There isn't any good reason/benefit to Eve that I can see for this inequality to exist. If you find one please post below.
Proposed solution: 1. Unify Rockets and Light Missiles in to Small Missile Launcher skill. Take Heavy Missiles and HAM and unify them in to Medium Missile Launcher skill. Take Cruise Missiles and Torpedos and unify them in to Large Missile Launcher skill. Combine Citadel Torpedos and Citadel Cruise Missiles in to Capital Missile Launcher skill. Set training time, prereqs, and SP to equal same sized turret skill.
2. Modify the specializations in order to require the previous sized spec to IV. The progression would be (short ranged): Rockets -> HAMs -> Torps. Long Rage would be Light Missiles -> Heavy Missiles -> Cruise Missiles. Again set training time, prereqs, and SP equal to same sized turret spec skill.
3. Do the database market wizardry to replace old skill books and seed the new ones. Then refund excess SP.
Questions/comments post below. Also feel free to +1 this and hope that CCP Ytterbium, CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise see this and can fix it. |
Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
134
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Posted - 2013.06.27 07:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
reserved. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
127
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Posted - 2013.06.27 07:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
pity reply |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult
460
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Posted - 2013.06.27 07:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Missile launchers are a completely different weapon system to gunnery systems as are drones. I don't see any reason why there should be any unity between Drones, Missiles and Gunnery skill progression.
If you don't like missile skills, don't learn them and use guns instead.
If you want to use missiles, learn the skills.
I'm not trying to be an arse, I just don't see why there needs to be any change here. |
Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
134
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Posted - 2013.06.27 08:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tchulen wrote:Missile launchers are a completely different weapon system to gunnery systems as are drones. I don't see any reason why there should be any unity between Drones, Missiles and Gunnery skill progression.
If you don't like missile skills, don't learn them and use guns instead.
If you want to use missiles, learn the skills.
I'm not trying to be an arse, I just don't see why there needs to be any change here. I updated my second post with some numbers to make it more clear as to just how much extra training is needed to be just as effective as someone who trained a gunnery turret to V.
I am not trying to say they need to progress absolutely the same. I agree that there should be some differences. Good luck getting drones to follow something like this. For someone to be as effective with missiles as a turret they need to train twice as long I think there is something wrong. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
591
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Posted - 2013.06.27 08:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yeah, I'd like to go ahead and train large projectiles without spending the better part of a month on small turrets. Thanks |
Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
134
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 08:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Yeah, I'd like to go ahead and train large projectiles without spending the better part of a month on small turrets. Thanks
Edit: Also, how do you plan on reimbursing people who put all theire SP in torps and cruises without just giving them all the other skills that are prereqs? Would you like to train both Large Autocannons Turrets and Large Artillery Turrets to V (would be 2304k SP) instead of just training Large Projectile Turrets to V (with small and medium to V also is 2304k SP)? That is the boat Missile users are in. Same effort to be less effective.
You could take away all 6 of the Missile launcher skills and specializations, replace them with the new skill books and specializations, and then refund the total SP. If you want to get back to using T2 Cruise missiles you have to train the skills over again using the refunded SP.
Or you could do what CCP did with the Ship skill rebalanced and pull a "if you could use it before you can use it after" then just refund the excess SP.
Some ideas. There are other ways. I would leave the best way up to CCP to figure out. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
177
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Posted - 2013.06.27 09:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:Yeah, I'd like to go ahead and train large projectiles without spending the better part of a month on small turrets. Thanks
Edit: Also, how do you plan on reimbursing people who put all theire SP in torps and cruises without just giving them all the other skills that are prereqs? Would you like to train both Large Autocannons Turrets and Large Artillery Turrets to V (would be 2304k SP) instead of just training Large Projectile Turrets to V (with small and medium to V also is 2304k SP)? That is the boat Missile users are in. Same effort to be less effective. I dont mind training autocannons and artillery separately as long as they dont require small and middle turrets at 5 and their specializations at 4. That would allow for quicker specialization but longer cross-training. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
778
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Posted - 2013.06.27 09:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yes the missile skill tree is longer. And this is balanced by being able to enter it at different points. A classic case of different but balanced. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10386
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Posted - 2013.06.27 09:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Missile skills are structured similarly to drone skills; it's Turret Skills that are the odd one out.
1 Kings 12:11
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Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
137
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Posted - 2013.06.27 17:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Yes the missile skill tree is longer. And this is balanced by being able to enter it at different points. A classic case of different but balanced. But it isn't balanced in its current state. How is taking twice as long to be just as effective balanced? Choose between getting every skill needed in half the time or being selective and having to train twice as long. Who in their right mind would take that deal? You would be almost criminally incompetent to take the missiles side of that deal. Why not fix it and take half the time to train EVERY skill?
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris, You argue for quicker specialization but it isn't quicker in its current state. Specializing in Cruise and Torps takes just as long as it would to train all the skills for a turret. I agree that your system would be best under the condition that it takes the same amount of training. 9-10 days for a large Autocannon or Large Artillery instead of 18-20 for both would be fantastic. Especially if you never use one or the other and can choose not to train it. Make missiles take the same amount of time to train and we have a deal. I will add this idea to the OP.
Malcanis, being different doesn't mean it is wrong.
What is wrong with this picture is how imbalanced the effort is for the reward. Why does it take twice as long to be just as effective? Specialization is a pretty dead argument because there is no benefit to specialization in its current state. Take a look at the OP in a few minutes to see my shot at a system where specialization is actually beneficial. |
Shahai Shintaro
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
32
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Posted - 2013.06.27 17:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
I think you would have to rework some ships if you were to change missiles. Let's say I specialize in gallente ships. I have only one hull that uses missiles and it uses torps. With your suggestion, instead of just training torps, I need to train every other missile as well. As a player of primarily Caldari ships, I see no issue with how the two different skill trees work |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
5335
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Posted - 2013.06.27 17:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'd have to side with people who are saying, that the only thing needing change is to make gun specialization work like missile specialization. It just makes more sense. I'm not a fan of the changes proposed in the OP though. Missiles are nothing like guns, so it's not exactly unreasonable to have them and their support skills follow a different skilling path in some respects. It could be changed, but I don't feel it needs to. |
Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
137
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Shahai Shintaro wrote:I think you would have to rework some ships if you were to change missiles. Let's say I specialize in gallente ships. I have only one hull that uses missiles and it uses torps. With your suggestion, instead of just training torps, I need to train every other missile as well. As a player of primarily Caldari ships, I see no issue with how the two different skill trees work The idea isn't so much that the skill trees are wrong, its that the training time to be as effective should take the same amount of time. There is no good reason as to why it takes a little over 42 days of extra training to be just as effective. However, to redo the SP requirements for missiles wouldn't be balanced for turrets because missiles would then get the benefit of specializing that turrets wouldn't. So one system or the other would need to change to make the systems balanced. |
Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
137
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 17:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:I'd have to side with people who are saying, that the only thing needing change is to make gun specialization work like missile specialization. It just makes more sense. I'm not a fan of the changes proposed in the OP though. Missiles are nothing like guns, so it's not exactly unreasonable to have them and their support skills follow a different skilling path in some respects. It could be changed, but I don't feel it needs to. How are missiles and turrets not the same? They both have an object that propels the the munition at the target. Both of them have optimal and tracking (flight time/velocity and explosion velocity and explosion radius). Even their support skills can be mapped almost 1 -1 to each other (No missile version of controlled bursts due to missiles not needing cap). Both have short and long rage variants. Once you take away the work missile and turret they are almost EXACTLY the same.
Also, you all are getting stuck on how skill trees work. I have yet to hear a good reason as to why it takes twice as long to train missiles as it does to train turrets. The way it works right now is you are actually penalized for specializing. That is the issue I am trying to fix. however to fix the issue and not create a new imbalance one or the other systems needs to change. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
179
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Posted - 2013.06.27 17:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris, You argue for quicker specialization but it isn't quicker in its current state. Specializing in Cruise and Torps takes just as long as it would to train all the skills for a turret. Thats where you are wrong: training both cruise and torps is not specialization, its cross-training. Specialization is when you choose 1 weapon size/type (ex. Cruise missiles) and train it as fast as possible. It takes much less time to specialize in any single type of missile, but you'll spend much more time to cross train to any other type compared to turret weapons. They are different and each has its own pros and cons. Personally i prefer missile type of training, thats why i said that i dont mind if turret skills were split to short and long range types. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
137
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 18:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Aliventi wrote:Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris, You argue for quicker specialization but it isn't quicker in its current state. Specializing in Cruise and Torps takes just as long as it would to train all the skills for a turret. Thats where you are wrong: training both cruise and torps is not specialization, its cross-training. Specialization is when you choose 1 weapon size/type (ex. Cruise missiles) and train it as fast as possible. It takes much less time to specialize in any single type of missile, but you'll spend much more time to cross train to any other type compared to turret weapons. They are different and each has its own pros and cons. Personally i prefer missile type of training, thats why i said that i dont mind if turret skills were split to short and long range types. But it doesn't take less time to train Cruise Missiles V. it take just as long as it would to train Large Projectile turrets to V. So you get 2 weapon systems (large autos and large arty) whereas missile users only get Cruise Missiles for the same amount of training time. If it took less time to train I would be here arguing for gunnery to follow missiles skill tree because it would then be imbalanced towards favoring missiles.
The current system is you are penalized for specializing while benefit from generalization. I want to change both of those so you benefit from specialization and it takes just as long as it does currently to generalize. Under the first system proposed in the OP you only stand to gain because gunnery gain the ability to specialize and missiles will no longer be penalized for specializing. It is pure win-win. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
179
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 18:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:But it doesn't take less time to train Cruise Missiles V. it take just as long as it would to train Large Projectile turrets to V. So you get 2 weapon systems (large autos and large arty) whereas missile users only get Cruise Missiles for the same amount of training time. Thats where you are wrong again, specialization is an ability to use T2 weapons. Training Large projectiles to 5 wont enable you to use T2 arty or autos while you only need a couple of minutes to learn Cruise missile specialization after completing Cruise missiles 5. Please refer to post #8 to see the difference. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
166
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 18:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
It takes 73 days to get T2 torpedoes to level 5 (no supports).
It takes 126.5 days to get T2 large Blasters to level 5 (no supports).
Personally I've never seen a problem, they're just different. Save the drones! |
Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
137
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 18:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Aliventi wrote:But it doesn't take less time to train Cruise Missiles V. it take just as long as it would to train Large Projectile turrets to V. So you get 2 weapon systems (large autos and large arty) whereas missile users only get Cruise Missiles for the same amount of training time. Thats where you are wrong again, specialization is an ability to use T2 variants of weapons, training Large projectiles to 5 wont enable you to use T2 arty or autos while you only need a couple of minutes to learn Cruise missile specialization after completing Cruise missiles 5. Please refer to post #8. Alright. That is true, but only because of differing prereqs. |
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
197
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Posted - 2013.06.27 18:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
The breakdown comes with specialization.
To specialize in a missle, you need only train that particular missle, and the launcher skill itself to 5.
If you wanted to draw the comparison, the Launcher skill is analogous to a single turret skill, and it gets you every launcher in the game.
To specialize in a Turret you need to get every turret below it to 4, every spec below it to 4, and a support skill to a set level dependent on turret size. Almost none of this training is beneficial to the turret you actually want to use, except for the support skill and the skill and spec of that particular turret size. For battleship guns this is quite a bit of wasted training
Missiles are the opposite. Launcher to 5 benefits any launcher you care to fit. Support skills are optional. The only 'wasted' training is the comparatively trivial requirement to get the lower missile skill to 3, taking up at most a day, maybe 2 but I don't think so.
Being able to use both the short and long range version of a weapon do not make you twice as effective. You still only benefit from what you fit, and the turrets have radically different mechanics concerning damage application.
If you want to use both short and long range missles on a given ship, then suck up your extra couple hours training and fit what you like. |
Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
137
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 18:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:It takes 73 days to get T2 torpedoes to level 5 (no supports).
It takes 126.5 days to get T2 large Blasters to level 5 (no supports).
Personally I've never seen a problem, they're just different. Yes. 73 days to get Torps to V. Now add in Another 75 days to get Cruise missiles to V and you have achieved the same effectiveness you have earned in 126.5 days. If you can train T2 blasters and add in another ~5-6 days to get small and medium Rail Spec 4. So 130.5 days and you can train large blaster and rail spec. To get that same effectiveness for large missile launchers is 148 days.
Under the proposed new system you could specialize in a large turret 34.5 days (half the training time to V currently due to the skill split). Under the new system you could specialize both large turrets in 75 days. If you want to specialize in all the levels it would be close to the ~130 days which is what you are training currently. Missiles would have the exact same training times. There are no losers in this new system. Turrets will no longer need to train prereqs they don't intend to use and missiles don't have to train 42 days extra to be just as effective. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
197
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 18:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
It is balanced.
You have a far reduced time to be able to use the weapon of your choice. Turrets take a little less than twice as long, but come with greater variety.
The trade off is clear in the weapon systems themselves too. If your first weapon was the long range variant, you have all the flexibility that the 2 turret types grant the turret user because missiles don't care how far the target is so long as they can reach it. With turrets if you are trying to hit something nearby with a long range turret you better hope you have good support skills and modules to boost the tracking.
You also seem to be ignoring the requirement on battleship guns to get both Motion Prediction and Sharpshooting to 5 to be able to train up both specs. With missiles the support skills are optional, though a stupidly good idea. With turrets those two skills are Mandatory to spec. |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
750
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 19:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
I always figured that this was balanced by being able to skip small weps immediately and go for the big guns.
This was really helpful for minmatar split weapon ships.
Flying a hurricane and you want a typhoon now? Well just train torpedoes instead of spending 3 months skilling up HAMS and Rockets! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
137
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 19:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
You are trying to draw a distinction between missiles and turrets. They are the nearly the exact same thing once you take away the words missile and turret:
Aliventi wrote: They both have an object that propels the the munition at the target. Both of them have optimal and tracking (flight time/velocity and explosion velocity and explosion radius). Even their support skills can be mapped almost 1 -1 to each other (No missile version of controlled bursts due to missiles not needing cap). Both have short and long rage variants. Once you take away the words missile and turret they are almost EXACTLY the same. . We could go in to long discussions about the finer points of tracking and all that jazz. But that isn't super relevant because at their base they are essentially the same thing.
And support skills are different and not really relevant to this discussion. Gunnery support skills also effect 3 turret systems. That is huge for cross training to a different turret. You would train them anyway because you would be bad at Eve not to. Yes, it isn't mandatory, but it is training you would do anyway for missiles. The news proposed system would also remove these as prereqs.
I suppose if you REALLY wanted everything to be the same you could unify the missile and gunnery skills in to a broad "Weapon Systems" section. You would have to change the names of a lot of the support skills so it would make sense that it would effect both missiles and turrets. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10416
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 20:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:ExAstra wrote:It takes 73 days to get T2 torpedoes to level 5 (no supports).
It takes 126.5 days to get T2 large Blasters to level 5 (no supports).
Personally I've never seen a problem, they're just different. Yes. 73 days to get Torps to V. Now add in Another 75 days to get Cruise missiles to V and you have achieved the same effectiveness you have earned in 126.5 days. If you can train T2 blasters and add in another ~5-6 days to get small and medium Rail Spec 4. So 130.5 days and you can train large blaster and rail spec. To get that same effectiveness for large missile launchers is 148 days..
No it isn't, It takes about 20 days to train cruise missile I-V
1 Kings 12:11
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2735
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Posted - 2013.06.28 01:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Aliventi wrote:ExAstra wrote:It takes 73 days to get T2 torpedoes to level 5 (no supports).
It takes 126.5 days to get T2 large Blasters to level 5 (no supports).
Personally I've never seen a problem, they're just different. Yes. 73 days to get Torps to V. Now add in Another 75 days to get Cruise missiles to V and you have achieved the same effectiveness you have earned in 126.5 days. If you can train T2 blasters and add in another ~5-6 days to get small and medium Rail Spec 4. So 130.5 days and you can train large blaster and rail spec. To get that same effectiveness for large missile launchers is 148 days.. No it isn't, It takes about 20 days to train cruise missile I-V Less than that even. With maxed out Perception and Willpower attributes...
it takes 15 or 16 days to train up Torpedos from level 1 to level 5. Same applies for Cruise missiles (I haven't trained up either yet so I'm staring at the training times right now). So it takes ~32 days total to get both skills up to level 5 and another ~5 days apiece to get their specializations up to 4... so ~42 days total if you don't train up any support skills.
Guns meanwhile...
~5 days for small turrets @ level 5 ~9 days for 2x small turret specializations @ level 4 ~12 days for medium turret @ level 5 ~7 days for 2x medium turret specilzations @ level 4 ~20 days for large turret @ level 5 ~10 days for 2x large turret specializations @ level 4
= ~94 days total
I think the basic idea behind the skill systems is that;
- with missile skills you can train directly into the weapon system you desire without concerning yourself with anything else... making specialization into a certain weapon system easy and quick. However, to train ALL missiles skills to the same level takes longer.
- the turret skill system takes less time than missiles to train everything to Tech 2 level... however there is no way to specialize in any single weapon system without first training up the smaller turret sizes first.
This is fair.
However I would not be opposed to changing the turret skill system to be like the missile system (longer overall training times but can train larger weapon systems without small weapon prerequisites). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Matuk Grymwal
Bite Me inc Bitten.
62
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Posted - 2013.06.28 02:22:00 -
[28] - Quote
Personally I think this is a terrible idea. I think turret skills should be restructured to be the same as missile skill training. The great thing about missile skills is that it's really to specialise into a specific class of missile. So you can go and train up T2 cruise without having to train T2 rockets, light, heavy, heavy assault, etc.
In comparison to get T2 large guns I have to train up T2 small and T2 med. Sure there is tradeoff the OP doesn't like where there isn't a single base T1 skill for each size category, but that's fine considering the benefit you get in being able to specialise more easily. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
166
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 05:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:ExAstra wrote:It takes 73 days to get T2 torpedoes to level 5 (no supports).
It takes 126.5 days to get T2 large Blasters to level 5 (no supports).
Personally I've never seen a problem, they're just different. Yes. 73 days to get Torps to V. Now add in Another 75 days to get Cruise missiles to V and you have achieved the same effectiveness you have earned in 126.5 days. If you can train T2 blasters and add in another ~5-6 days to get small and medium Rail Spec 4. So 130.5 days and you can train large blaster and rail spec. To get that same effectiveness for large missile launchers is 148 days. Under the proposed new system you could specialize in a large turret 34.5 days (half the training time to V currently due to the skill split). Under the new system you could specialize both large turrets in 75 days. If you want to specialize in all the levels it would be close to the ~130 days which is what you are training currently. Missiles would have the exact same training times. There are no losers in this new system. Turrets will no longer need to train prereqs they don't intend to use and missiles don't have to train 42 days extra to be just as effective. Incorrect, because you have to add ~70 days to also get T2 Large Railguns to level 5. Plus, nobody is fitting blasters and railguns on their ship at the same time, in the same way that you're not fitting torpedo and cruise missile launchers on your ship.
Missile skill training time is LOWER, and wastes LESS SP.
Here are the numbers:
Missiles: 73 days for T2 Torpedoes V (+83 days T2 Cruise Missiles V) = 155 Days for both @ (13,140 SP + 19,800SP = ~33k wasted SP for Light missiles and HAMs) Hybrids: 126.5 days for T2 Large Blasters V (+68 days for T2 Large Railguns V) = 194 Days for both @ (256,000 SP + 135,765(x2)SP + 768,000 SP + 226,275(x2) SP = 1,748,080 wasted SP for Small Hybrid V + 2 specs and Medium Hybrid V + 2 Specs) Save the drones! |
Jen Ann Tonique
University of Caille Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2013.06.28 06:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
I want to see gunnery changed to be more like missiles rather than the other way around.
They just revamped how many ship skill trees because there was too many special prereqs for certain hulls, and having to specialize into hulls you don't want to just to get to the one you did just plain sucks right?
Why should gunnery be treated any differently? I don't give two rats behinds about small turrets, yet here I am training them (and specializing into them) just to get to what I really want to do. This should be fixed.
Consistent game design makes everybody's lives better. Jen Ann Tonique does not approve of this product and/or service. Any comments contained herin are to be taken not seriously and no person/s shall hold Jen Ann Tonique responsible for any damage real and/or imagined due to use or misuse of above comment. By reading this statement you agree to the above terms. |
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