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Solai
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
48
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Posted - 2013.06.27 14:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
I noticed a competitor doing odd things with their market updates. I'm used to getting outbid by .01 or a large round chunk or isk, always bidding up. Sometimes within minutes of my order, but not commonly.
But what if I get outbid consistently by weird numbers, who seem to be set by a ratio? What if I see an orders regularly updated, but with no price change? Or immediately .01'd on a wide spread of low-movement items? Or price updates that aren't set to beat mine, when I'm the only competitor, and am buying region-wide?
It smells fishy, but I don't want to assume.
How do you think I should respond? What can I do to find out what I'm dealing with, and make good decisions on how to proceed?
Thanks, folks. |
goatplasma
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.06.27 15:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Choose a different item. |
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
234
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Posted - 2013.06.27 16:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Solai wrote:
How do you think I should respond? What can I do to find out what I'm dealing with, and make good decisions on how to proceed?
Thanks, folks.
I think if you informed CCP then you'd be telling them what they already know.
I think it was about 18 months ago they banned some market botters and the problem seemed to be better for a while. IIRC they said at the time that some rediculously small number of market bots (like 10 or something) accounted for it. I have no doubt that the bots are back and I'm sure CCP will get around to dealing with them at some point.
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arabella blood
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
22
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Posted - 2013.06.27 19:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Solai wrote:
What if I see an orders regularly updated, but with no price change?
How does one achive that exactly? |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
298
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Posted - 2013.06.27 19:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Solai wrote:I noticed a competitor doing odd things with their market updates. I'm used to getting outbid by .01 or a large round chunk or isk, always bidding up. Sometimes within minutes of my order, but not commonly.
But what if I get outbid consistently by weird numbers, who seem to be set by a ratio? What if I see an orders regularly updated, but with no price change? Or immediately .01'd on a wide spread of low-movement items? Or price updates that aren't set to beat mine, when I'm the only competitor, and am buying region-wide?
It smells fishy, but I don't want to assume.
How do you think I should respond? What can I do to find out what I'm dealing with, and make good decisions on how to proceed?
Thanks, folks.
Can be just fat fingers, or misreading.
I have been known to mis-update once or twice.
It can be someone who doesnt know how to use the market screen, or doesnt check range on other orders, or has ones within a set range ignored (done through the market settings)
Instant updating can be someone who has 3-4 orders sorted by time remaining and checks on them regularly, I often land on someone who has updated within the last 5s.
It can be several different people being stupid, yes, there are plenty of those about.
It can be a bot, but its a crap bot if they arent actually getting the price right, cos, lets face it, Elinor and Mentat manage that and they are just copy/paste tools :p |
Vincenzo Arbosa
Badabing Salvage Corp
28
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Posted - 2013.06.27 19:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
arabella blood wrote:Solai wrote:
What if I see an orders regularly updated, but with no price change?
How does one achive that exactly?
Dunno. Does it extend the length of the sale though, similar to when you adjust the price? Easier than paying another broker fee I guess. You shoot em, we loot em.. that's mother truckinGÇÖ right http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuyLTDAC7fE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oz3RpU45_E
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Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
298
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Posted - 2013.06.27 19:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Updating with no price change wont alter the duration..
The only thing you can change when you update is price, and if you dont move that it does not reset the duration, so not sure how you would tell if it had been updated with no price change |
arabella blood
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
22
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Posted - 2013.06.27 20:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rhivre wrote:Updating with no price change wont alter the duration..
The only thing you can change when you update is price, and if you dont move that it does not reset the duration, so not sure how you would tell if it had been updated with no price change
Thats why i asked, modifying the order wont reset the duration timer.
I too get the feeling im facing bots sometime, but not stuff like you described, they sond like a fail bot. i try to look for consistency in the time the orders above me got changed. If they all fall on the same pattern, i start to be suspicious. Need to try these bots sometime befire i can understand how they work... |
Bruce Sotken
Afro Industries
0
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Posted - 2013.06.27 22:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
With regard to the price not changing; I noticed that I would sometimes change the price by 0.01 isk and due to what I assume is a rounding error, the price remains the same on the UI. Unfortunately I have no data as to which order is actually used if anything is sold to or bought from one of the two (e.g. I don't know if it uses the oldest or the lowest without rounding error). |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
179
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Posted - 2013.06.28 01:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Bots or no bots the only way to outperform is to use some things that reduce the pattycake benefits.
Obvious solution move out of HUBs and shift buy and sell orders to a better location.
Most players would prefer fair priced items where they actually are. They will even pay more if they dont have to go to a HUB.
Consider using spreads. More than one order scattered around your target price.
Get as many orders as you can, consider using corp orders and having all alts in the corp.
Make piles you sell smaller, but more of them. Move big piles to bulk contracts instead, and advertise in appropriate channels.
make sure you realize HUB are exchanges and bulk location trades primarily.
For retail think about building up as an actual service.
Use Jita (hub) to supply your actual business. Using freight services.
If your intention is daytrading and working the New Eden equivalent of the trading floor make sure you are well informed and understand that its speculative and very competitive. It needs a little finesse and reading to make it successful.
Drop by some of the dedicated trade channels, the scc-lounge for the more social side and the handful of others for specifics.
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arabella blood
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
23
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Posted - 2013.06.28 03:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bruce Sotken wrote:With regard to the price not changing; I noticed that I would sometimes change the price by 0.01 isk and due to what I assume is a rounding error, the price remains the same on the UI. Unfortunately I have no data as to which order is actually used if anything is sold to or bought from one of the two (e.g. I don't know if it uses the oldest or the lowest without rounding error).
If you change the price it changes. its a lag/delay bug i often see, just return to the item later and see the price changed... |
Solai
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
48
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Posted - 2013.06.28 04:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thank you for the replies, everyone. It's greatly appreciated.
I'll supply a few more details. First, I do only buy orders, I have about 70 that I monitor, I have a pretty large sum invested, and about 5 months practice on my methods. The buys are region-wide. I operate out of one of the region's trade hubs, which is null-sec, and is the only place I intend on doing any business.
I've noticed these patterns over the course of a month when I expanded my purview into another category of items. The suspicious competitor buyer is omni-present across this category and more, with probably as many, or more orders than me. All the orders are based out of the same system, and it's a name I'd seen pop up many times over the past months. We're basically using the same market strategy.
Sometimes I'm watching in near-real-time as it updates the price. Multiple times, I've seen refreshed expiration-dates while displaying the same price(if my memory isn't shot), down to the cent. I'll be watching to confirm if it's what I think I'm seeing, since it's been claimed that such a move is impossible.
The competitor seems on one hand diligent, and fast. Sometimes it pulls out of an item if I'm enough of a bastard(this threshold has been hard to nail down, though).
Then on the other hand, it doesn't update all of them - Sometimes it looks like a random selection. Sometimes the price adjustments don't fit to a logic I'm used to seeing. Sometimes the price adjustments seem like it's not from a human sensibility, which I theorize are percentage increases. The patterns don't feel like human mistakes nor fat-fingers, to me. But then, there's no way to be certain of something like that.
Now, I currently monitor and update my orders manually. I tried using programs in the past to help keep track, but didn't stick with it. So I'm uncertain what the common/best use patterns are with these programs. I don't know what a human-using-Mentat would look like. This is part of why I'm hesitant to feel sure that it's a bot.
One way or the other, I wont be changing my products or moving locations. My heels are dug in. So I have to figure out how to respond either way, and hope that if it's software, then I can reach the threshold where it's programmed to let go.
Conversely, if there's a way to find out how to gain greater confidence on Bot-Vs-Not, I'm hoping that I can get a bot kicked out. Cuz screw those guys. |
arabella blood
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
24
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Posted - 2013.06.28 08:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
I think we should start with: A bot, in null, only buying stuff?? What the hell... |
W3370Pi4
Comel Technology
108
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Posted - 2013.06.28 08:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
If you do not have his exact name CCP is a bit powerless because they wont have the manpower to investigate the issue. ________________________________________ GåÆGÿà Join the "Legit Trading" Channel - http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Legit_Trading GåÉGÿà |
Solai
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
49
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Posted - 2013.06.28 09:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
Oh, I know who it is. And I suspect the name will have some recognition, as I've seen the name pop up in Jita too. But I didn't want to give it here, at this point. Particularly since I have no certainty of botting, or whatever. I figured I'd first talk to his corp's diplo, after I've learned more. But not yet... If there's one thing I have little respect for, its guys who wantonly accuse of cheating when they've been beaten. I don't wanna be that guy.
As for buying stuff: It's quite lucrative, if you know what you're after, and does not require delving into industry. This particular fella has buys on pretty much anything that gets regular use, or regularly drops. |
Solai
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
49
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Posted - 2013.06.28 09:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
As for convoing the suspect... I'm not sure what I could accomplish, there. the likely end I imagine is him laughing, and me coming away empty. |
arabella blood
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
24
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Posted - 2013.06.28 10:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
Solai wrote:As for convoing the suspect... I'm not sure what I could accomplish, there. the likely end I imagine is him laughing, and me coming away empty.
Its from "how to determine a mining bot" :) Usually he wont respond and you get the message almost instantly, i suggest you try it. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
784
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Posted - 2013.06.28 12:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
An easy response is just to damage his profit margins by making large changes to your orders. |
Lord Jita
Lord Jita's Big Gay Corp
75
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Posted - 2013.06.29 02:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
Set up margin scam orders with ridiculous prices and see if he outbids you. If its a dumb bot, you can do stuff like this:
http://i.imgur.com/LnzKHAo.png
I have been gaming this ******** bot for months, made billions off him. of course i petitioned the crap out of him but either CCP hasn't done anything (yet) or are silently watching what he does. In the meantime I am glad to take his isk. |
Hrothgar Nilsson
The Scope Gallente Federation
371
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Posted - 2013.06.29 07:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
Solai wrote:But what if I get outbid consistently by weird numbers, who seem to be set by a ratio? Define "weird numbers" which "seem to be set by a ratio".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8 |
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Sabre Rolf
Republic University Minmatar Republic
57
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Posted - 2013.06.29 09:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Solai wrote:IHow common are market bots?.
I don`t think anoyne can answer you that question without admiting to be a botter himself. |
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
236
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Posted - 2013.06.29 12:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lord Jita wrote:Set up margin trade scam orders with ridiculous prices and see if he outbids you. If its a dumb bot, you can do stuff like this: http://i.imgur.com/LnzKHAo.pngI have been gaming this ******** bot for months, made billions off him. of course i petitioned the crap out of him but either CCP hasn't done anything (yet) or are silently watching what he does. In the meantime I am glad to take his isk.
could you explain in more detail how you do this? |
arabella blood
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
24
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Posted - 2013.06.29 12:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Lord Jita wrote:Set up margin trade scam orders with ridiculous prices and see if he outbids you. If its a dumb bot, you can do stuff like this: http://i.imgur.com/LnzKHAo.pngI have been gaming this ******** bot for months, made billions off him. of course i petitioned the crap out of him but either CCP hasn't done anything (yet) or are silently watching what he does. In the meantime I am glad to take his isk. could you explain in more detail how you do this?
create a Margin scam. You put a buy order for an item, but instead of living a minimum-1, you put a high number. that way he cant sell to your buy order unless he has many of that item. u will need Margin trading skill for this, so it wont cost a lot. you can then empty your wallet and send your isk to your alt just incase someone will try tu fulfill you buy order. the BOT then thinks its a legit buy order, and 0.01 isk above you. leaving you with the job of selling to his buy order.
what wrong with this method?? it doesnt work. bots are smarter then this (i hope), its easy to check if its a margin scan/trap for him, all he got to do is check the minimum buy amount. another thing, the bots (usually) have % range they can put a buy order in, they wont put a buy order thats higher then selling price. and thats what the op shows us in his photo - which is total bullshit :) from his photo - he bought something for 540mil at 22.6 and then sold it 2 days later at a profit...BOTS? i dont see a connection.
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AnakieNine
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2013.06.29 12:42:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lord Jita wrote:Set up margin trade scam orders with ridiculous prices and see if he outbids you. If its a dumb bot, you can do stuff like this: http://i.imgur.com/LnzKHAo.pngI have been gaming this ******** bot for months, made billions off him. of course i petitioned the crap out of him but either CCP hasn't done anything (yet) or are silently watching what he does. In the meantime I am glad to take his isk. Todays game is pick the trade.
I see you like clothes today :)
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arabella blood
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
24
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Posted - 2013.06.29 12:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
AnakieNine wrote:Lord Jita wrote:Set up margin trade scam orders with ridiculous prices and see if he outbids you. If its a dumb bot, you can do stuff like this: http://i.imgur.com/LnzKHAo.pngI have been gaming this ******** bot for months, made billions off him. of course i petitioned the crap out of him but either CCP hasn't done anything (yet) or are silently watching what he does. In the meantime I am glad to take his isk. Todays game is pick the trade. I see you like clothes today :)
I love 'quafe' :)))
Didnt knew Bots love it too |
AnakieNine
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2013.06.29 12:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
Keep it up. Just dont lose the shirt off your back :)
evil grin |
Lord Jita
Lord Jita's Big Gay Corp
76
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Posted - 2013.06.29 14:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
arabella blood wrote:Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Lord Jita wrote:Set up margin trade scam orders with ridiculous prices and see if he outbids you. If its a dumb bot, you can do stuff like this: http://i.imgur.com/LnzKHAo.pngI have been gaming this ******** bot for months, made billions off him. of course i petitioned the crap out of him but either CCP hasn't done anything (yet) or are silently watching what he does. In the meantime I am glad to take his isk. could you explain in more detail how you do this? create a Margin scam. You put a buy order for an item, but instead of living a minimum-1, you put a high number. that way he cant sell to your buy order unless he has many of that item. u will need Margin trading skill for this, so it wont cost a lot. you can then empty your wallet and send your isk to your alt just incase someone will try tu fulfill you buy order. the BOT then thinks its a legit buy order, and 0.01 isk above you. leaving you with the job of selling to his buy order. what wrong with this method?? it doesnt work. bots are smarter then this (i hope), its easy to check if its a margin scan/trap for him, all he got to do is check the minimum buy amount. another thing, the bots (usually) have % range they can put a buy order in, they wont put a buy order thats higher then selling price. and thats what the op shows us in his photo - which is total bullshit :) from his photo - he bought something for 540mil at 22.6 and then sold it 2 days later at a profit...BOTS? i dont see a connection.
lol thats just 2 of my recent trades against that bot, i have dozens and dozens of them over the past few months. After he gets banned I'll post all the screenshots of him getting pwned that i gave to CCP.
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arabella blood
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
24
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Posted - 2013.06.29 16:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lord Jita wrote:arabella blood wrote:Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Lord Jita wrote:Set up margin trade scam orders with ridiculous prices and see if he outbids you. If its a dumb bot, you can do stuff like this: http://i.imgur.com/LnzKHAo.pngI have been gaming this ******** bot for months, made billions off him. of course i petitioned the crap out of him but either CCP hasn't done anything (yet) or are silently watching what he does. In the meantime I am glad to take his isk. could you explain in more detail how you do this? create a Margin scam. You put a buy order for an item, but instead of living a minimum-1, you put a high number. that way he cant sell to your buy order unless he has many of that item. u will need Margin trading skill for this, so it wont cost a lot. you can then empty your wallet and send your isk to your alt just incase someone will try tu fulfill you buy order. the BOT then thinks its a legit buy order, and 0.01 isk above you. leaving you with the job of selling to his buy order. what wrong with this method?? it doesnt work. bots are smarter then this (i hope), its easy to check if its a margin scan/trap for him, all he got to do is check the minimum buy amount. another thing, the bots (usually) have % range they can put a buy order in, they wont put a buy order thats higher then selling price. and thats what the op shows us in his photo - which is total bullshit :) from his photo - he bought something for 540mil at 22.6 and then sold it 2 days later at a profit...BOTS? i dont see a connection. lol thats just 2 of my recent trades against that bot, i have dozens of them from over the past few months. If he gets banned I'll post all the screenshots of him getting pwned that i gave to CCP. In fact heres an old screenshot of me using the same trick to pwn some bot a few years ago. In fact I didn't even use margin trade to do this because that was before I knew about it, just a real inflated order and hoped no one saw it before the bot updated. I believe this guy got banned at some point. http://i.imgur.com/Wxr5QYb.jpg
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Lord Jita
Lord Jita's Big Gay Corp
76
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Posted - 2013.06.29 17:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
All I see you doing is making bad posts so I guess we are even! LOLOLOL |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
532
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Posted - 2013.06.29 17:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
pretty simple. if you think someone might be a market bot, petition / report them ingame as bot and make Team Security do its job investigating them. @pmchem on twitter || GARPA || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
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