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Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
226
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Posted - 2013.07.02 18:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
During last year we see increasing proliferation of sentry based fleet doctrines ranging in size form Vexors all the way up to slowcat blobs.
Main advantage of those sentry based ships is perfect alpha completely controlled by FC without any input from rest of the fleet pilots, other then assigning drones to FC. Additional advantages are free high slots that can be loaded with neutralisers, smartboms, remoter reps or other utilities. Drawback is reduced mobility after drones are deployed, and potential of losing drones (take note both are mostly insignificant for slowcats as they have bad mobility anyway, and enormous drone bay easily holds sufficient number of replacement drones)
I can see 2 potential problems in overall metagame and balance of those fleet doctrines.
First is reduced significance of line fleet members. Typically they already do not pilot their ships but instead are just anchored, or aligned to celestial as instructed by FC. They often already make no target selection decisions but only follow broadcast from FC. Problem is sentry ships additionally reduce even those two limited activities by line members. Ships in those fleets mostly stand still and often have no target broadcasts to follow or DPS to apply on their own. Depending on what is in highs slots they might or might not have something to do, but mostly it is fair to say those fleets tend to be less interesting game experience for your average grunt
Second problem is perfect alpha and how it balances with remote reps. Thing with remote reps is they tend to be very binary, they either can save whole fleet, or if enemy has sufficient alpha, or just row DPS, they can become completely irrelevant. What perfect alpha of assigned drones does in this game of DPS/alpha/reps might be problematic.
So my question is do drone assistance mechanic need rebalancing, and do you find sentry drone based fleet as fun as other types of fleet?
Feedback form Ytterbium, Fozz and Rise and is also welcome, if they have any. Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
Delucian
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
44
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Posted - 2013.07.02 18:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dont break what finally works very well! |
Caerfinon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
78
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Posted - 2013.07.02 18:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Before nerfing sentry drones, are there any fleet tactics to counter them? Perhaps a role for a wing or squad to specifically hunt down and eliminate sentry drones may counter their effectiveness. Or some, as yet undiscovered, type of doctrine may expose a weakness in the sentry drone doctrine.
The nice part about the sandbox is that you can try to adapt to what the other guys are doing. I just think that this trail should be exhausted before bringing out the nerf bat.
Cheers C. |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
226
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Posted - 2013.07.02 18:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
I donGÇÖt have any problems with sentry drones, my problem is mechanic that allows single player to simultaneously and perfectly control fire from hundreds of drones. Fleet of 250 ships, each with 5 drones, and FC can perfectly concentrate fire of over twelve hundred drones while remaining 249 people in fleet are picking their nose, or eating lunch, or whatever...
Is that good game design? Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
Whitehound
1497
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Posted - 2013.07.02 19:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bring a larger fleet. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Hakaimono
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly
170
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Posted - 2013.07.02 19:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Find an FC who knows how to counter that. |
Delucian
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
45
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Posted - 2013.07.02 19:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Close proximity drones - smartbomb them to hell
Sentrys - counter snipe them |
Caleidascope
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
309
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Posted - 2013.07.02 19:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
What about firing range? I think warden has range of 90 km? (optimal + falloff). How far can that be increased? Life is short and dinner time is chancy Eat dessert first! |
Tenchi Sal
Aliastra Gallente Federation
162
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Posted - 2013.07.02 19:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
considering how useless other drones are, its nice to see useful drones for a change. i recently started doing lvl 4 missions, the first ones i've done after the big drone nerf. losing ogre II left and right and having to go restock over and over again is giving me a headache. i've already started training missiles now. i've also been considering training sentry drones since you can scoop them up when the npcs start focus firing on them. sentry drones seems to be the gallente's last hope considering they suck at everything else that doesnt involve suicide ganking. |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
430
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Posted - 2013.07.02 19:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:Main advantage of those sentry based ships is perfect alpha completely controlled by FC without any input from rest of the fleet pilots, other then assigning drones to FC.
pressing F1 (or whatever desired keybind is) requires more thought and deep tactical play than just assigning drones ?
Null warfare is just one person controlling the masses, sentries just remove one small insignificant step from other types of doctrines.
Reps also need time to hit, in the case of most fleets where armour is dominant, this means lock time+rr cycle time which is at the very least 5 seconds. If your fleet members take 5 seconds to click the correct target and press F1 then I do apologise, but there's no hope for that fleet in the first place. |
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Delucian
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
45
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Posted - 2013.07.02 19:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
It sounds like your fleet is too composed of a given type of ship/type (be they armor or shield). There are different tactics that should be employed in a drone rich environment, part of which should be your own drone wing. Utilizing tactics that do not allow the other fleet to engage the central blob without suffering greater damage from snipers and your drone wing (s).
Once damage projection shifts the the tactic shifts to centralize damage either onto the swarm or onto the main fleet.
Seems more like a tactical issue TBH.
.... course I am a self-accepted sucky FC. |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
154
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Posted - 2013.07.02 20:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
Suicide bomb sentry drones maybe? [Wolf, SB] Power Diagnostic System II Adaptive Nano Plating II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
1MN Microwarpdrive II Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Small Graviton Smartbomb II Small Graviton Smartbomb II Small Graviton Smartbomb II Small Graviton Smartbomb II Small Graviton Smartbomb II
Small Anti-Explosive Pump II Small Anti-Kinetic Pump II
|
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
430
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Posted - 2013.07.02 20:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
Shereza wrote:Suicide bomb sentry drones maybe? [Wolf, SB] Power Diagnostic System II Adaptive Nano Plating II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
1MN Microwarpdrive II Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Small Graviton Smartbomb II Small Graviton Smartbomb II Small Graviton Smartbomb II Small Graviton Smartbomb II Small Graviton Smartbomb II
Small Anti-Explosive Pump II Small Anti-Kinetic Pump II
if you are going to do that you might as well brick tank a bunch of domis, stick MJD on them and send them with large bombs into them. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
279
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Posted - 2013.07.02 22:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Caleidascope wrote:What about firing range? I think warden has range of 90 km? (optimal + falloff). How far can that be increased?
on a dominix you can get 90km optimal with garde IIs and those are the short range sentries. 73km looks to be the max range on a geddon (3 omni, 3 drone scope chips)
as for discos: I'd use a phoon, gotta go with a ship that has 8 highslots. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
431
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Posted - 2013.07.02 23:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
oh yeah forgot phoon was cheap now as well. |
Grandma Squirel
Squirel Enterprises
28
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Posted - 2013.07.02 23:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
The only version that is particularly hard to counter is the slowcat version, and that is tied into the entire cap balance issue.
The drones tie you down, and are an easy bomb target. Your also vulnerable to high dps enemies coming inclose. Not only do they do more damage, but fighting on top of your sentries really messes with the tracking. Even with the giant Domi drone bay, you get to reposition 2 times and then your out of dps... |
vyshnegradsky
Pompeii Syndicate No Safe Haven
107
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Posted - 2013.07.02 23:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bomb them. And if they simply recall their drones then hey, they still aren't shooting you. This one's a bit over the edge guys.
Locked for breaking... well, pretty much all the rules.
- CCP Falcon |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
431
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Posted - 2013.07.03 00:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Grandma Squirel wrote:The only version that is particularly hard to counter is the slowcat version, and that is tied into the entire cap balance issue.
The drones tie you down, and are an easy bomb target. Your also vulnerable to high dps enemies coming inclose. Not only do they do more damage, but fighting on top of your sentries really messes with the tracking. Even with the giant Domi drone bay, you get to reposition 2 times and then your out of dps...
gardes track better than any battleship sized weapon already
and you recall drones before moving, i thought that was obvious. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
206
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Posted - 2013.07.03 00:49:00 -
[19] - Quote
Think some of you are missing the point OP is trying to make. It's not about sentry drones. He's pretty much just complaining about drones being able to be assigned. And it actually is a legit point.
The sentry drone doctrine does remove a certain amount of the "incompetence factor" of fleet members. Players in the fleet don't have to target, don't have to manage their weapons, don't really have to do anything. They can go into the other room, make a sandwich, catch up on whatever game is playing, and poke their head in every so often to see if the FC won the fight or not. Yes, that's a bit of an exaggeration. But it still doesn't require much input from the fleet member. He can do plenty of other things while "fighting". Like for instance, manage the other Slowcats he has running in the fleet.
It is a style of gameplay that heavily favors alts. And correspondingly favors folks who can afford multiple accounts. Which unfortunately does seem a bit like pay-to-win. Is that good or bad? Not sure. Money doth have it's privileges, and multiboxers do contribute more to CCPs bottom-line than the solo account player. But then again, some believe that the game should be about skill and not how much money you can throw at it (the typical complaint of the poor). |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1169
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Posted - 2013.07.03 00:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
It's not hard to counter, it's just ppl aren't willing to fly the counter fit. Would you want to be part of the zerg fleet full of smartbombs? Hmm... actually, that sounds like fun...
In any case, countering takes effort, it's easier to just whine and have it nerfed. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
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Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2077
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Posted - 2013.07.03 00:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
A few bombers make the mean sentries go away. |
Dato Koppla
Veni Vidi Evassi The Barking Nexus Chommy Alliance
273
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Posted - 2013.07.03 01:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:A few bombers make the mean sentries go away.
This, T2 Sentries are not cheap and a well placed bomber squad can pretty much wipe the field of all your dps instantly. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
206
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Posted - 2013.07.03 05:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote: This, T2 Sentries are not cheap and a well placed bomber squad can pretty much wipe the field of all your dps instantly. If only I had put more than one flight of Sentry drones in my Archon! Dammit!
(And you guys are still completely missing the point the OP was trying to make.)
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Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
68
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Posted - 2013.07.03 06:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Dato Koppla wrote: This, T2 Sentries are not cheap and a well placed bomber squad can pretty much wipe the field of all your dps instantly. If only I had put more than one flight of Sentry drones in my Archon! Dammit! (And you guys are still completely missing the point the OP was trying to make.)
People being obtuse aside, the fact that a couple counters of various degree make the point (largely) moot.
Who cares if the grunts are there to push F1 or the FC can do it for them? Who cares if that then allows for multi box fleets?
If the complaint is that the fleet style is boring and minimally interactive, then the op needs to go join fw as all major fleets tend to be boring.
If the complaint is that there are too many ships per player, then it becomes the usual troll about "suck it up princess"
The only point (in my opinion) with some room for debate is the one about perfect alpha. And really it isn't that much different than the mumble order to primary by any other fleet is it? But as others pointed out your logi either catches the damage or not. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3078
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Posted - 2013.07.03 06:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:A few bombers make the mean sentries go away.
You need a continuous stream of bombers, few bombers are totally irrelevant and Domis don't even need to pull sentries.
If the sentry fleet is smart enough to have a fast locker with them, they one-shot your bombers as soon as they decloak.
If you are going to use bombers, why not do it right and try to actually kill the Domis and not just their drones.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
923
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Posted - 2013.07.03 10:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Hakaimono wrote:Find an FC who knows how to counter that.
This.
->Bomber runs
->Suicide SM BS (not a good choice but sometimes is good enough)
->Doom Portal
Many others are possible and cooking untill someone start using them, succeeding and make them cry, just like the pretended so awesome stupid 200K EHP 700dps Tengus at....25km (with top skills and rage)-now those are not being replaced while just by reducing slightly the amount or EHP the same ship could do 600dps at over 55km...well 250dps caracals are better indeed.
Not a new tactic, it's rather a very old one and has its counters
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
102
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Posted - 2013.07.03 10:20:00 -
[27] - Quote
Couple the already given benefits with the fact that said sentry Dominix is pretty much the only ship type that can make decent use of the target spectrum breaker (as seen in the latest doctrines) for the simple fact that due to the 'assist' command, those ships only need to be on grid but not be able to target something and you have an extremely strong fleet concept, quite possibly too strong.
At the same time, that very doctrine is a hard counter to the use of TSBs, since only the drone director actually needs to lock a target.
I'm too inexperienced regarding the use of bombers, but I'd think that if the sentries were not assisting a single drone director but instead a couple of fast locking ships, the doctrine should be pretty lethal for bomber fleets as well. |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1376
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Posted - 2013.07.03 16:23:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:I donGÇÖt have any problems with sentry drones, my problem is mechanic that allows single player to simultaneously and perfectly control fire from hundreds of drones. Fleet of 250 ships, each with 5 drones, and FC can perfectly concentrate fire of over twelve hundred drones while remaining 249 people in fleet are picking their nose, or eating lunch, or whatever...
Is that good game design?
I have a problem with people being able to shoot me from 75-100k out... it's just not fair! They should go toe-to-toe with me, damn it!!
Is that good game design?!?!?!? I say NO! Nerf everything that can shoot me from more than 500m out!! "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Ciyrine
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2013.07.03 17:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
If i assign my sentries to someone with fast lock time can thr drones fire at targets that are outside my targeting range? |
Whitehound
1500
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Posted - 2013.07.03 17:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:(And you guys are still completely missing the point the OP was trying to make.) Oh, I think most get the "point", but they are only not paying any attention to it. And why would we? It is the same "point" we get to see all the time, made by a few mental kids who want to tell others how to play the game so they can have fun, because otherwise their brain implodes.
It starts with imagining how the ship they are shooting is a person and that they are shooting the person. Then they make rules what that person may and may not use and whine about how this or that becomes unfair to them based on their associations.
So others now must sit inside a ship and must not use sentries, because they would have to shoot sentries in order to win when really they wanted to shoot the person, and so how can they shoot the person?!
Naturally, and because of the way their brains are build, will these implode on facing such a dilemma. So they go complaining on the Internet, hoping someone will fix their dilemma and also bring them cookies and milk.
If you are looking pretty sharp at the monitor right now, know there will not be any cookies or milk.
Must of the time do we not pay attention to it at all and all these points and whines zip through the Internet, flashing before our eyes, without ever reaching the soul. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
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