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HooBaJoo
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Posted - 2005.12.02 04:05:00 -
[1]
Edited by: HooBaJoo on 02/12/2005 04:05:45 What kind of success rate do they have? Are they more effective against heavier, slower missiles? What situational uses have you found for them?
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Mudkest
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Posted - 2005.12.02 05:16:00 -
[2]
only been in game a few months and spent most time mining ant trianing learning skills and barges(almot got covetor yay) but the few times I used them, only had succes in taking down light missiles at around 20-30km away. around 15km and closer theye are not fast enough to take out light missiles. only ran into heavier missiles once and didnt have launcher equiped at that time so cant say for anything other then light missiles, but theye seem to need at least 5 seconds or so to ahve a chance at taking out missiles.
smartbombs can work nice for missile defene with some timing, but be carefull where you do that :p
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Hoshi
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Posted - 2005.12.02 05:39:00 -
[3]
With the increased speed missiles got few months ago these things became mostly worthless. 9 times out of 10 you are better of fitting real missiles in your launchers instead of defenders.
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2005.12.02 05:53:00 -
[4]
Perhaps we need special defender-launchers? Perhaps around Rocketlauncher ROF up to Assault launcher ROF, and firing varying sizes for different effectiveness. I'd suggest a torp sized defender that hits any missile within 500m, but that'd be an insane nerf to missile boats.
Still, defenders being made more useful would be nice. I only ever use defenders, if i have a launcher fitted, to take down EM missiles when in my harpy, incase i forgot a hardener, or just dont want to deal with the 40 or so damage taken by have 0 base em resists. ------------------------------------
Quote: 1 Billion isk currently sells on ebay for about $225 90 day GTC $38.95 Currently selling for 300mill
Therefore 1Bill isk costs you $129.50. |
Kaell Meynn
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Posted - 2005.12.02 06:05:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 02/12/2005 06:05:07
Originally by: Hoshi With the increased speed missiles got few months ago these things became mostly worthless. 9 times out of 10 you are better of fitting real missiles in your launchers instead of defenders.
^^^ What she said. They arent usefull post missile-(buff/nerf). Dont use them.
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Gorgons
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Posted - 2005.12.02 07:59:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Hoshi With the increased speed missiles got few months ago these things became mostly worthless. 9 times out of 10 you are better of fitting real missiles in your launchers instead of defenders.
When I'm doing lvl 4 missions in my cerb at a range of around 40+ km, the battleships will fire loads of defenders. Most of the time only 3-4 of my missiles hit, so I have to go in close to break some of the nastier BS tanks..
conclusion: defenders do work at longer range.. atleast on me -------------------------------------------- In the space age the most important space is between the ears. |
Shugo Kazuma
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Posted - 2005.12.02 08:39:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Gorgons When I'm doing lvl 4 missions in my cerb at a range of around 40+ km, the battleships will fire loads of defenders. Most of the time only 3-4 of my missiles hit, so I have to go in close to break some of the nastier BS tanks..
conclusion: defenders do work at longer range.. atleast on me
I would never base data against NPCs, we all know they cheat with their 40km/s MWDs and their guns of long range hitting and high speed targeting. I even hear NPCs can launch defenders to defend other NPCs, which you can't do normally.
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Lord Aradon
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Posted - 2005.12.02 08:44:00 -
[8]
Um, ill defend the defenders here (you see what i did there?)
I use defenders, with my skills 1 defender missile takes down all but torps, which require 2, so yes, they are VERY effective to a degree. Just dont expect them to take down EVERY missile coming your way.
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Macro Media
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Posted - 2005.12.02 09:02:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Macro Media on 02/12/2005 09:02:27 Defenders are useful in a group situation.
Imagine a raven tank. Fittet with all Arb Rocket launchers and defender missiles. This leaves tons of CPU/Powergrid for super shield tank.
For NPC's, this would tank very well, and make you almost immune to missiles. Of course, you need a gankageddon to clear up, but that is another story.... ------------ Criminal EVE Guides Evil Genius 101 Guide |
Gorgons
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Posted - 2005.12.02 09:46:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shugo Kazuma I would never base data against NPCs, we all know they cheat with their 40km/s MWDs and their guns of long range hitting and high speed targeting. I even hear NPCs can launch defenders to defend other NPCs, which you can't do normally.
Well if you still decide to train defenders past lvl 1, I'm pretty sure you will see that these defenders do work. As stated above, you can't count on them hitting every single missile. Try to spam the fire button like crazy when you see a missile in flight, I'll bet you hit some of them. -------------------------------------------- In the space age the most important space is between the ears. |
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Theron Gyrow
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Posted - 2005.12.02 09:58:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 02/12/2005 09:59:36 I posted this in another thread, but I figure it's pertinent enough for the question to do a repost.
Example of defender use:
Assumptions: 1) There's a half second delay after defender launches before it acquires its target, which is always the closest missile targeted to the ship launching it. 2) The defender missile usualy misses the head-on intercept with its target and needs 2.5+ seconds to turn around and catch it (rarely missing even a second time). Total delay used for this calc = 2 sec (just in case the 2.5 sec turnaround time just feels that long and is actually 1.5 sec). 3) Staggered launch by the attacker, one missile every two seconds (12 sec RoF by Raven, 10 sec by Cerberus etc) using T1 stuff and 0-1 dam mods. 4) Level 4 skills for everyone 5) Firing ship has +10% per level missile speed bonus, giving heavies and cruises speed of 7350 m/s. 6) Starting range 70km => flight time 9.52 sec, say 10 sec with the half second target acquisition delay. 7) Defender speed 7500m/s * 1.2 * 1.2 = 10800 m/s (if missile projection skill affect defenders. I don't know) 8) Arbalest rocket launcher used, RoF 2.6 sec.
Missile closing speed about 18km/sec.
Defenders on autofire: time....event 0.......missile 1 (M1) and defender 1 (D1) launched 2.......M2 launched 2.6.....D2 launched at M1 - wasted 4.......M3 launched 5.2.....D3 launched at M1 - wasted 5.9.....D1 kills M1 6.......M4 launched 7.8.....D4 launched at M2 8.......M5 launched 10......M6 launched 10.4....D5 launched at M2 - wasted 11.6....D4 kills M2 12......M7 launched 13......D6 launched at M3 14......M3 hits, M8 launched 15.6....D7 launched at M4 16......M4 hits, M9 launched 18......M5 hits, M10 launched 18.2....D8 launched at M6 20......M6 hits, M11 launched
From now on, all missiles will hit. From 70k range using tech 1 launchers and max 1 damage mods two missiles were shot down.
How much better would a 0-lag, perfect reaction time manual activation work? Let's say that someone has as many defender launchers as needed, so RoF is not an issue ever.
timeevent 0.......missile 1 (M1) and defender 1 (D1) launched 2.......M2 launched 4.......M3 launched 5.9.....D1 kills M1 5.9.....D2 launched at M2 6.......M4 launched 8.......M5 launched 10......M6 launched 10.2....D2 kills M2 10.2....D3 launched at M3 12......M7 launched 13.6....D3 kills M3 13.6....D4 launched at M4 14......M8 launched 16......M4 hits, M9 launched 16......D5 launched at M5 18......M5 hits, M10 launched
Three missiles stopped before the first hits, after that none. It is of course possible that some defender hits a missile head-on, but it is rare and doesn't really change the result all that much.
Defenders have their uses against ships with one or two launchers, but against a serious missile ship (even one) which staggers its launches their usefulness is extremely limited.
NPCs cheat. There is a Defender Chance % for every missile you launch - and that defender is indeed automatically aimed at that missile, not the closest one. This one change makes defenders very, very useful at longer ranges.
-- Gradient's forum |
Tanya Kovacs
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Posted - 2005.12.02 10:16:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 02/12/2005 10:16:51 Uhm, for missions defenders are usefull at long range fighting. I fitted an assaultlauncher with defenders and switch it to light missiles when enemies are to close. But for long range the defenders are helpfull, especially against heavy missiles. All you have to do is to be aware of "incoming glowing dots" and launch the defender. Each missile the defender intercepts is less damage to tank. They are useless in "close combat" (because of the strange flightpath), but helpfull at longer ranges. At least in my humble (newb-)opinion
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Zark Brassen
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Posted - 2005.12.02 10:45:00 -
[13]
I agree - defenders are good at long range. In missions it cuts down on the number of missiles that hit you - which is a good way to conserve your tank. I recently took out a 800K angel battleship in my Muninn - it did not hit me once - i stayed at 40+ km with two assaultlaunchers with defenders - not one of his cruise missiles got through.
But when the enemy comes within 20 km they are very good.
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Niki Silver
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Posted - 2005.12.02 11:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Zark Brassen But when the enemy comes within 20 km they are very good.
Did you mean to say not very good? Under 30km they are close to useless. Under 20km they are totally useless.
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Steven Gould
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Posted - 2005.12.02 11:17:00 -
[15]
It might be usefull defending a convoy or a group of miners/ non-missile protected ships ?
fly in a raven with a @$#@load of speedy launcers with defenders. You could protect a lot of ships closeby if you don't chain-launch them
Quote: It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of java that thoughts aquire speed, the hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Grey Area
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Posted - 2005.12.02 11:38:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Steven Gould It might be usefull defending a convoy or a group of miners/ non-missile protected ships ?
fly in a raven with a @$#@load of speedy launcers with defenders. You could protect a lot of ships closeby if you don't chain-launch them
No offence, but it seems you don't know how they work. They only target missiles that are targetting YOU, not other ships.
The problem with defenders as I see it is that you can fit the same system on all sizes of ship...so a system that is loaded on a battleship can take out a cruise missile with one shot...fine...but the same system can also be mounted on a frigate! Cruise missiles already hit frigates for very poor damage, and here we are with a system that can reduce it still further.
Defenders only need fixing IF;
1. They make a separate launcher for each size class...small, rapid fire to take out small missiles, large, slow fire to kill torps and cruise in one shot...medium somewhere in the middle. OR
2. The increase the damage that cruise do to smaller targets
I think it's a bit limited that the only missile that takes two shots to kill is a Torp...I assume missiles have hitpoints (as this is how smartbombs kill them too) but I can't find it anywhere. I would suggest the following;
Rockets - oh come on, who the hell is going to be able to shoot down a rocket? Standards - 40 points Heavies - 80 points Cruise - 120 points Torps - 240 points
(note...smartbombs do 25/50/100/250 for micro/small/medium/large)
And then I suggest; Small defender missiles do 50 points of damage, ROF = assault launcher, fitting = standard launcher Medium defender missile do 125 points of damage, ROF & fitting = heavy launcher Large defender missiles do 250 points of damage, ROF & fitting = cruise launcher
At least then you wouldn't have frigates having an equal defence to a battleship!
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Steven Gould
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Posted - 2005.12.02 12:32:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Steven Gould on 02/12/2005 12:34:34 well i did use a question mark m8.
but the thing above i use frequently. I just position my ship halfway between both parties.
-> against NPCS that is!! ...
sorry
Quote: It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of java that thoughts aquire speed, the hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Grey Area
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Posted - 2005.12.02 12:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Steven Gould Edited by: Steven Gould on 02/12/2005 12:34:34 well i did use a question mark m8.
but the thing above i use frequently. I just position my ship halfway between both parties.
-> against NPCS that is!! ...
sorry
Well, if you are saying that you get the NPCs to target you instead, then yes your defenders will work...but at that point I'd say the defenders are protecting YOU, not the other ships. --- Ha! Vote me for top forum ***** |
Steven Gould
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Posted - 2005.12.02 12:58:00 -
[19]
looks a bit like semantics to me now!
They still do there job: destroying missiles before they impact while the enemy ships are destroyed. Had i not been there with my defenders then they would probably still have been destroyed but a lot of the missiles would have hit the convoy/miners/whatever. possible resulting in ships lost.
Quote: It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of java that thoughts aquire speed, the hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Rawthorm
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Posted - 2005.12.02 14:23:00 -
[20]
They work but you have the train the missile skills up. They are not exempt from the new missile system just cos turret users use them
Also range helps. It would be insane to expect an intercept weapon to catch a missile which is only launched 10km from you.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.12.02 14:45:00 -
[21]
Defenders are good. They just need monitoring, and dont expect to shoot down anything fired from 10km or under.
Someone placed a time calculation above, and whilst that may show defenders to be bad in a purely mathematical sense, in practice they're very good if you know how to use them. I find them particularly useful on Minmatar ships where we often have utility high slots spare when we arent busy fitting nos/neut/remote rep/blah.
For example, against a Raven spamming Cruises, a single rocket launcher with defenders will cut down 1/6 of his DPS against you.
Theyre good, just practice with 'em, and dont fit them on a ship that fights up close or requires a lot of attention to maneuvering.
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Theron Gyrow
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Posted - 2005.12.04 22:32:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Testy Mctest Someone placed a time calculation above, and whilst that may show defenders to be bad in a purely mathematical sense, in practice they're very good if you know how to use them. I find them particularly useful on Minmatar ships where we often have utility high slots spare when we arent busy fitting nos/neut/remote rep/blah.
For example, against a Raven spamming Cruises, a single rocket launcher with defenders will cut down 1/6 of his DPS against you.
If the opponent launches all missiles simultaneously, what you say is true. The point of that time calculation was that if the opponent staggers the firing, then you can only get the first couple.
To recap: stupid opponent = defenders good. Smart opponent = defenders almost useless.
-- Gradient's forum |
Megadon
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Posted - 2005.12.04 22:46:00 -
[23]
Defenders work fine. Arbalest assault lauchers and defenders level V are your friend. They don't work below 20 km very well, but that's not where they are intended anyway and i think thats where people get confused. They are more effective against slower missiles. It takes 3 defenders to take out a torp, only 1 for the rest. Most useful against heavy missiles and cruise missiles.
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Filan
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Posted - 2005.12.05 14:42:00 -
[24]
Kestrels can spit out missles faster then any enemy ive encountered so far can spit out defenders.
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