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Adunh Slavy
1094
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Posted - 2013.07.05 03:42:00 -
[31] - Quote
Tumahub wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:What is a government if it's not at its citizens service? A geographical monopoly on the illegitimate use of force. The final arbiter in all cases of dispute between two parties, including itself (unless itself is threatened. See first sentence for clarification.)
Fixed Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2286
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Posted - 2013.07.05 04:46:00 -
[32] - Quote
Fair point, but since I'm explaining it to statists, I had to use the (in)appropriate verbiage to convey the concept.
You've got to realize that, for most of them, it's mind-blowing to even broach the concept of the state from any viewpoint other than "magical human cooperation machine built on pure love and devotion that keeps the bad people from doing bad things." |
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
678
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Posted - 2013.07.05 11:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:What is a government if it's not at its citizens service?
Democracy, this word should mean something, it's meant to mean something.
What happened in Egypt at some point is a democracy lesson at the highest level for many countries armies, an Army reminding the government they're at their citizens service and not their executioners, preventing a larger human disaster in the country it self and surrounding ones eventually.
The democracy process is on the road for this country, the example given by Egyptian army should be taken by many others where those armies neutrality leads to fake democracies and citizens arresting/murderers with the complicity of existing governments to keep their citizens mouth shut and benefit of those same citizens taxes to have better conditions.
I respectfully salute Egyptian army for respecting their country citizens wish and make it happen "smoothly" for a better process of democracy and liberty of this noble country and people. Yeah! Go Egypt!!! Woo!!!!!*Edit: Was going to put this in the funny news thread but I'm better than that
Not that any of the cases are acceptable and the over whelming reaction by the 'authorities' is unacceptable, but I will assume that most of the perpetrators of these actions are those that align with the Muslim faith or those that will ultimately find themselves in the hands of the law for other violations once things settle. A bunch of r.a.p.e cases, although massively unfortunate, should not be used to discredit the overall situation. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
943
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Posted - 2013.07.05 11:52:00 -
[34] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:What is a government if it's not at its citizens service?
Democracy, this word should mean something, it's meant to mean something.
What happened in Egypt at some point is a democracy lesson at the highest level for many countries armies, an Army reminding the government they're at their citizens service and not their executioners, preventing a larger human disaster in the country it self and surrounding ones eventually.
The democracy process is on the road for this country, the example given by Egyptian army should be taken by many others where those armies neutrality leads to fake democracies and citizens arresting/murderers with the complicity of existing governments to keep their citizens mouth shut and benefit of those same citizens taxes to have better conditions.
I respectfully salute Egyptian army for respecting their country citizens wish and make it happen "smoothly" for a better process of democracy and liberty of this noble country and people. Yeah! Go Egypt!!! Woo!!!!!*Edit: Was going to put this in the funny news thread but I'm better than that
Propaganda.
Democratic countries all around the world salute what happened and you drop a link to some awful crap site like CNN, cmon CNN????
Why don't you link Reuters comments, Russian/European/Arabian known information sites instead of that piece of crap written by incompetent lazy people?
Also this:
Slade Trillgon wrote:Not that any of the cases are acceptable and the over whelming reaction by the 'authorities' is unacceptable, but I will assume that most of the perpetrators of these actions are those that align with the Muslim faith or those that will ultimately find themselves in the hands of the law for other violations once things settle. A bunch of r.a.p.e cases, although massively unfortunate, should not be used to discredit the overall situation. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
23721
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Posted - 2013.07.05 12:18:00 -
[35] - Quote
Democracy in the west was fought in bloody civil wars, with the deathtolls in the millions across Europe and the streets of Paris floodying with blood from the guillotines. I would say if an act of **** in a population of 14 million protesting peacefully in the streets is the worst Egypt can do when its their turn I think its us that come off badly.
That said we were first and proved the concept and the peaceful template, but still there were no systematic massacres, no religious zealots and it was a Secular peaceful uprising for the most part.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /S¦¦GùòGÇ+GÇ+GùòS¦¦\ Unban Saede! |
Graygor
1kB Realty 1kB Galactic
43671
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Posted - 2013.07.05 12:34:00 -
[36] - Quote
Kirjava wrote:Democracy in the west was fought in bloody civil wars, with the deathtolls in the millions across Europe and the streets of Paris floodying with blood from the guillotines. I would say if an act of **** in a population of 14 million protesting peacefully in the streets is the worst Egypt can do when its their turn I think its us that come off badly.
That said we were first and proved the concept and the peaceful template, but still there were no systematic massacres, no religious zealots and it was a Secular peaceful uprising for the most part.
Agreed.
I think people forget it took just shy of 700 years from the manga carta for Britain to become a full democracy.
America kind of hit the ground running as they benefited from The Enlightenment and 500 years of democratic evolution back in Britain.
Then you have Japan.... which is a truly bizarre kind of democracy. I cant even explain how weird it is... and how insanely noisy. "I think you should buy a new Mayan calendar. Mine has muscle cars on it." --áKenneth O'Hara
"I dont think that can happen, you can see Gray has his invuln field on in his portrait." - Commisar Kate |
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
23722
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Posted - 2013.07.05 13:00:00 -
[37] - Quote
Yea, the Japanese play musical chairs with the cabinet right? I stopped remembering who their Prime Minister was after Koizumi....
Also to revise the estimate for deathtolls for democracy in Europe, probably over a hundred million dead for our democracy in Europe, and still rehabilitating the former eastern block through the EU and investment. Until Belarus is a democracy I don't think the liberation of Europe will fully be completed.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /S¦¦GùòGÇ+GÇ+GùòS¦¦\ Unban Saede! |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
943
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 13:10:00 -
[38] - Quote
Kirjava wrote:Yea, the Japanese play musical chairs with the cabinet right? I stopped remembering who their Prime Minister was after Koizumi....
Also to revise the estimate for deathtolls for democracy in Europe, probably over a hundred million dead for our democracy in Europe, and still rehabilitating the former eastern block through the EU and investment. Until Belarus is a democracy I don't think the liberation of Europe will fully be completed.
Considering the last WW II was about 100 millions (global also but most in Europe) we can safely say at least 150Millions in less than 3 generations and much more since many European democratic processes started earlier, but for some like East Europe makes only a bit more than one decade they start knowing what democracy looks like but they're catching quite fast which is good, not perfect not good enough but on the good road.
Edit: Japanese example imho is a very interesting one. You see all these contrasts, democracy and modernism at higher levels ever conceivable conciliated with feudal living or habits that make Japanese people what they are witch such a rich culture in so many aspects. Took them what 3/4 generations from Feudal system to Democratic one? -I don't know if it's a perfect example but at least in a very interesting one for me. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Stegas Tyrano
GLU CANU Open Space Consultancy
533
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Posted - 2013.07.05 15:17:00 -
[39] - Quote
People seem to be talking about the egyptian army as if it solely serves the country and it's president when in reality it has always been pro-mubarak and pro-american (thanks to the billions it gets in military aid).
The coup was bound to happen sooner or later. Herping your derp since 19Potato --á[Proposal] - Ingame Visual Adverts |
jason hill
The Riot Formation Unclaimed.
306
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Posted - 2013.07.05 15:26:00 -
[40] - Quote
then you obviously didn't read my post then |
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Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
23731
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Posted - 2013.07.05 15:31:00 -
[41] - Quote
Not exactly, Mubarak was a part of the military before hand and he was pro military. The billions in aid to the Army is a fairly nice amount of cash, but nothing the Egyptian state can't say thanks, but no thanks and replace it with a bit higher taxes.
The army is a component of Egyptian life too, and in a military enterprise there is loyalty to the people as much as the leaders, how else do they keep such an institution stable and motivated? The previous military rule only worked because the case could be legitimately made they were the best for the job, and with the Muslim Brotherhood the main opposition committing terrorist acts objectively its a fair point.
They aren't the best people on Earth I'll grant you that, but their priority is stability and defence of the nation, Israel sits to the north east across Suez so they have a damn good motivation to be sober and not get wrapped up in nationalistic or religious fervour. Also the people on the streets were demanding that the President be removed from power, till Egypt matures as a democracy the military will be the most educated, level headed and cohesive organisation in the country and its lucky they have such an institution to avoid becoming a state like Iran or worse, Zimbabwe given the Brotherhoods economic illiteracy.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /S¦¦GùòGÇ+GÇ+GùòS¦¦\ Unban Saede! |
Adunh Slavy
1107
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 16:26:00 -
[42] - Quote
Tumahub wrote:Fair point, but since I'm explaining it to statists, I had to use the (in)appropriate verbiage to convey the concept. You've got to realize that, for most of them, it's mind-blowing to even broach the concept of the state from any viewpoint other than "magical human cooperation machine built on pure love and devotion that keeps the bad people from doing bad things."
+1
Understood :) Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2323
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 18:14:00 -
[43] - Quote
Graygor wrote: America kind of hit the ground running as they benefited from The Enlightenment and 500 years of democratic evolution back in Britain.
Their advantage was they confederated and rejected populism in favor of common law and republic style representation.
Honestly, I wish people would stop calling the US of 18th-earth 19th century a "democracy," because it was no such thing. Democracy is the name of the evil crony-capitalist fascist state that it is today. |
Adunh Slavy
1109
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 19:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
Tumahub wrote: If Egypt is going to successfully extricate itself from their economic plight, they'll need to completely reject the notion that Democracy should be their stated goal.
Quite true. Franklin said it well, "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for lunch." Another nice way of saying it is, commonly termed Social Justice.
What Egypt, and the rest of us for that matter, should aim for is equality under the law, regardless of that law being sharia or something more akin to what we in the west consider the natural law as expressed by the Magna Carta, Bill of Rights, Rights of Man. Government should have no right that an individual does not have. If government wants maximum freedom, then so should its subjects, anything else is a road to tyranny.
And just cause I know how these conversations on Eve forums go ...
If you think rights are just temporary privileges, as stated by the late George Carlin, then you admit you are a slave or a wanna be slave owner. If the former, time to get rid of some chains. If the later, oh wait, no one admits to that, instead they talk about social justice. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
29638
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 14:53:00 -
[45] - Quote
And in the current unrest in Egypt, a British Cameraman has been killed in the clearing of pro Islamist protesters.
Death toll is over 120 and rising, this is going to get ugly...
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /S¦¦GùòGÇ+GÇ+GùòS¦¦\ Unban Saede! |
Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
990
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 18:09:00 -
[46] - Quote
Interesting thread, wish more threads regarding these particular topics were like this one instead of being filled with slander, libel and "ad hominem" attacks.
Civilized people explaining their points of views in a descriptive manner while being polite and answering questions with their opinions.
(goes back to watch my own National Assembly members shouting slurs, insults and death threats in live National TV to members of the opposition)
Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco |
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