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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1185
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Posted - 2013.07.07 23:30:00 -
[31] - Quote
Mytai Gengod wrote:In the real world, where this margin trading borrows it's name and seems to be loosely modeled after, the firm that is providing the margin will immediately sell your positions, without concern to sell price, to meet your obligations and may permanently close your account. Some times there can be charges filed if there was additional fraudulent behavior related to the margin trading.
Abusing this market tool is risk free in Eve. I don't expect nor want CCP to remove it as some are asking, but consequences for those abusing it would make sense.
That's my point. CCP doesn't want the mass banning and/or SP removal that's necessary to implement consequence. It's not worth doing. Not everything irl can be translated sucessfully into a mmo to make good game mechanics. Margin trading is a prime example. This can of worms should be thrown out, not opened and made into soup... Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
508
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Posted - 2013.07.07 23:33:00 -
[32] - Quote
Mytai Gengod wrote: Abusing this market tool is risk free in Eve. I don't expect nor want CCP to remove it as some are asking, but consequences for those abusing it would make sense.
Define 'abusing,' since no one is harmed by a failed buy order. There's no risk to anyone.
A good tenet of resale (especially high dollar items) is that you make your profit at time of purchase (or manufacture). If you don't have enough wiggle room to turn some profit no matter what in a mostly stable market, then you have lost money before you ever made your first bungled sale.
If someone buys up a whole bunch of crap for at or above market price with the intention that they will then turn around and sell it even further above market price, then they have already set themselves up for any potential failure. The awesome overpriced market order they intend to sell to may even be real. What happens if someone else fills it first? Have they been 'scammed?' Not really, but they're still left holding the bag of expensive goods, just the same as if they were. Somehow, people in EVE will find a way for this to also be anyone's fault but their own. Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
508
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Posted - 2013.07.07 23:38:00 -
[33] - Quote
sabre906 wrote: Margin trading is a prime example. This can of worms should be thrown out, not opened and made into soup...
There is no can of worms. There is no risk to either party as a result of the margin trading skill, and therefore there can be no consequence levied on either. If someone suffered a loss due to a 'scam,' they suffered it at the moment they purchased product above market price, not when the buy order they intended to take advantage of failed. Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3597
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Posted - 2013.07.07 23:41:00 -
[34] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Mytai Gengod wrote:In the real world, where this margin trading borrows it's name and seems to be loosely modeled after, the firm that is providing the margin will immediately sell your positions, without concern to sell price, to meet your obligations and may permanently close your account. Some times there can be charges filed if there was additional fraudulent behavior related to the margin trading.
Abusing this market tool is risk free in Eve. I don't expect nor want CCP to remove it as some are asking, but consequences for those abusing it would make sense.
That's my point. CCP doesn't want the mass banning and/or SP removal that's necessary to implement consequence. It's not worth doing. Not everything irl can be translated sucessfully into a mmo to make good game mechanics. Margin trading is a prime example. This can of worms should be thrown out, not opened and made into soup...
Good thing RL margin trading has not been introduced into EVE. RL Margin Trading: Borrow Money, buy things with it. EVE Margin Trading: Only put a portion of the cost of an order into Escrow, Pay the whole amount before being able to actually buy anything.
The only thing they have in common are the words "Margin Trading" and one of those words is dependent on an uncommon phraseology in the RL example. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Alice Saki
Full Spectrum Hairdresser Pirates
69806
|
Posted - 2013.07.07 23:43:00 -
[35] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:These things stick out like pink lighthouses on fire.
Oh I'm sure a yellow lighthouse on fire would still stick out
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15399
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Posted - 2013.07.08 00:02:00 -
[36] - Quote
Mytai Gengod wrote:Abusing this market tool is risk free in Eve. How is it being abused and how does losing a ton of ISK qualify as GÇ£risk-freeGÇ¥?
There is definite risk for the buyer: he may lose his order and all the fees that go into it without getting the goods. For the seller, there is no risk at all. So why should there be more risk (for either side) than there already is?
sabre906 wrote:That's my point. CCP doesn't want the mass banning and/or SP removal that's necessary to implement consequence. Eh. None of those are consequences GÇö those are player punishments for cheating and exploitation. Of course they're not going to apply those to legitimate gameplay. There are definite consequences for bad use of the margin trading abilityGǪ
Quote: Not everything irl can be translated sucessfully into a mmo to make good game mechanics. Margin trading is a prime example. This can of worms should be thrown out, not opened and made into soup. Again, margin trading would be a really interesting mechanic if translated into game mechanics, but that's not what the skill is doing. And what can of worms are you talking about? You have still not explained this. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3597
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Posted - 2013.07.08 00:13:00 -
[37] - Quote
Tippia wrote:And what can of worms are you talking about? You have still not explained this.
This can.
On contracts for 1 ISK. Split it up and sell to my 2 ISK/worm buy order. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
508
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 00:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Tippia wrote:And what can of worms are you talking about? You have still not explained this. This can.On contracts for 1 ISK. Split it up and sell to my 2 ISK/worm buy order.
This isn't cool. I didn't realize that your can only has 16 worms, and the awesome overpriced buy order is for 32 minimum. Now I have a 1 ISK can of worms that only goes for .5 ISK on the marketplace.
I feel cheated. Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Eram Fidard
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
187
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 00:24:00 -
[39] - Quote
You've missed the point entirely OP. I know this has already been said many times, but here it is again.
The scam is not "exploiting" the market order.
The scam is "exploiting" players' greed and lack of common sense.
Like every other scam in existence, if you simply do the tiniest modicum of research, you will see the glaring hole.
In this case, the "research" is quite literally a single click away from the scam.
So...what exactly was this post meant to do? Propose a solution to the perceived problem? I don't see one. Generate discussion? The topic has been discussed to hell and back, with never a single intelligent thought on how, or why one would do away with this scam.
You are an insular player-type with limited knowledge of the game, and yet consider yourself capable of generating an informed opinion from your own understanding. That is exactly the same type of person who would fall for a margin scam.
I have something you should read before you post such drivel again: http://imgur.com/NOTa2Pf |
Gilat Sumat
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.07.08 01:25:00 -
[40] - Quote
Why even allow characters to even post a buy orders if they were never going to have enough isk in their wallets for the transaction? I understand the margin trading skill can somewhat put-off the full payment of the order when placed but the whole transaction should somehow be covered before itGÇÖs listed.
The example presented by Rhivre brings up a valid point of wasting new traders and couriers timeGǪ I wonder if Chribba ran his transaction service like this.
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Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2013.07.08 01:28:00 -
[41] - Quote
Eram Fidard wrote:You've missed the point entirely OP. I know this has already been said many times, but here it is again. The scam is not "exploiting" the market order. The scam is "exploiting" players' greed and lack of common sense. Like every other scam in existence, if you simply do the tiniest modicum of research, you will see the glaring hole. In this case, the "research" is quite literally a single click away from the scam. So...what exactly was this post meant to do? Propose a solution to the perceived problem? I don't see one. Generate discussion? The topic has been discussed to hell and back, with never a single intelligent thought on how, or why one would do away with this scam. You are an insular player-type with limited knowledge of the game, and yet consider yourself capable of generating an informed opinion from your own understanding. That is exactly the same type of person who would fall for a margin scam. I have something you should read before you post such drivel again: http://imgur.com/NOTa2Pf
The post is intended to create discussion, hence it being in the general discussion page. The discussion is based on the practice of intentionally putting yourself into Default utilizing margin trading and debating on it being an exploit.
but because you're the type of forum fighter that fuels their opinion with personal attacks, i suppose for you this discussion serves no reason and you're welcome to NOT Post here.
but the argument stands. Intentionally Putting yourself into Default and creating False Buy orders is something of concern, i feel.
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Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2013.07.08 01:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:I just want to know how much OP got scammed for. The only people that start these threads are whiny babies who are naive enough to fall for the scam, so OP must fall into that category.
Did they get your life savings, OP?
A month worth of level 4 missions?
Inquiring minds want to know.
none, i don't get scammed.
i waste my money by doing stupid things along the lines of intentionally using poorly fitted vessels for serious missions. Smart Bombing Noctis on L3's, 250mm Dual Rails on a Naga, Rainbow Oracle, Projectile Rokh...
I usually don't have money to get scammed because it is all invested in ships which i will likely get destroyed in short order for doing something risky or stupid for fun.
So, no, this isn't a rage thread based on 'i got scammed! i want revenge!' ... It is a third party observation made while i was hanging around Jita fitting another suicide ship and thought enough of it to be discussion worthy. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3597
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 02:04:00 -
[43] - Quote
Kalliel Egnald wrote:The post is intended to create discussion, hence it being in the general discussion page. The discussion is based on the practice of intentionally putting yourself into Default utilizing margin trading and debating on it being an exploit.
Nobody's going into default, as no debt is created, so there's no debt that can't be serviced.
The same thing happens if you go to WalMart, get to the cash register, and don't have the money to cover your bill. You're not in default because there's no debt to default on.
You may find better traction with your ideas if you don't start with premises that are false on their face. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Stonecrusher Mortlock
University of Caille Gallente Federation
164
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 03:09:00 -
[44] - Quote
you know how you avoid market scams?
look at the min volume for a sale if it says any thing other than 1 its a scam.
its that simple.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15399
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 04:30:00 -
[45] - Quote
Gilat Sumat wrote:Why even allow characters to even post a buy orders if they were never going to have enough isk in their wallets for the transaction? I understand the margin trading skill can somewhat put-off the full payment of the order when placed but the whole transaction should somehow be covered before itGÇÖs listed. That would temove the entire point of the skill. The reason you're allowed to post the order s because you're assumed to have the cash ready when it's needed, and if not, you have wasted a bunch of fees on transctions that never happened. You're allowed to o it becuse nothing bad happens (to nyone other than whoever set up the order) if the ISK isn't there in the end.
Also, why does it need to be covered? Again, it's not like anyone gets screwed over if the wallet is empty when someobe tries to sell to the order. The mechanics protect both parties and no-one loses anything.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Utzam
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 06:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tippia wrote:[quote=Gilat Sumat]The mechanics protect both parties and no-one loses anything.
This is the source of the problem. Buy orders need to be treated more like RL contracts for two reasons.
1. The amount the buyer places in escrow is never at risk, leading to these types of margin trading scams and unbalancing the 'market PVP' in favor of the buyer. 2. Whether or not a trade is a margin trade is not visible to the seller, nor is the amount in escrow.
The current set of margin trading scams are abusing the game mechanics. Raising the bar and reducing the profit that someone can make off margin scamming will handle the problem without removing the benefit of margin trading.
Two changes are needed. The first is that the entire escrow amount should be fair game for the seller to take from the buyer in the event a margin buy order defaults. The escrow amount should be at least 25-40% of the total value of the buy order. The amount in escrow should be visible in the market.
These changes are self-balancing and when the scammers fail to see profit in this exploit once it's fixed they will move to something more worthwhile like jet-can mining in Tama . |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
444
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 06:51:00 -
[47] - Quote
I hate this scam, not because i've ever fallen for it, but because it mainly effects the newer players that know no better that assume that the market system itself is safe and risk-free. It can easily take away all their hard earned isk in an instant, and similtaniously destroy their trust in the very market system itself.
Plenty of newer players have stopped playing (or at least, claimed that they intend to stop playing) after becoming victims of this scam. I believe that in itself should be reason enough for CCP to do something about it.
But then again, this one has been around for ages now, and CCP doesn't seem to give a rats ass. Post with your main, like a BOSS! |
Krete
Crystal Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 07:07:00 -
[48] - Quote
Utzam wrote: Two changes are needed. The first is that the entire escrow amount should be fair game for the seller to take from the buyer in the event a margin buy order defaults. The escrow amount should be at least 25-40% of the total value of the buy order. The amount in escrow should be visible in the market.
Sure, once CCP gets past all the pages of FUD in this thread resisting change.
I like the idea of having more information in the market about each order. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3597
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 07:18:00 -
[49] - Quote
Utzam wrote: Two changes are needed. The first is that the entire escrow amount should be fair game for the seller to take from the buyer in the event a margin buy order defaults. The escrow amount should be at least 25-40% of the total value of the buy order. The amount in escrow should be visible in the market.
It is. It is. Why? The seller cannot lose anything due to a margin trade failing. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Liafcipe9000
Smeghead Empire
7804
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 07:19:00 -
[50] - Quote
tl;dr drugs are bad mmkay You may gain the knowledge, but you will lose your belief, with all its mystery and comfort. If there was proof, absolute and certain, there is an afterlife, why not quit this life, and be done with it? Ponder about these things all your life, and you're a philosopher. Compress these ponderings into a couple of pages, and you'll go mad. |
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
5421
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 07:30:00 -
[51] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:I hate this scam, not because i've ever fallen for it, but because it mainly effects the newer players that know no better that assume that the market system itself is safe and risk-free. It can easily take away all their hard earned isk in an instant, and similtaniously destroy their trust in the very market system itself.
Plenty of newer players have stopped playing (or at least, claimed that they intend to stop playing) after becoming victims of this scam. I believe that in itself should be reason enough for CCP to do something about it.
But then again, this one has been around for ages now, and CCP doesn't seem to give a rats ass. So it's like all the other scams. If you don't know what you're doing, you can lose a lot of money. If you actually bother to find out or read the details, you'll spot that something is very wrong here. I'm not seeing how this is somehow qualitatively any different from all the other scams there are. If anything it's not as bad, since the actual damage done is through a legitimate trade where they paid too much for a product. They don't suffer damage from the failed trade, keep the items and can pass the damage on to other people or at least recover some of the invested ISK. |
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 07:59:00 -
[52] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:And again, someone is trying to make the case that players need to be protected from their own stupidity. Oh yes, and arguing that cleverness is an exploit.
An exploit is whatever CCP says it is. CCP says this is not an exploit. End of story.
No. You and a bunch of other players have been saying it isn't an exploit. No one from CCP has said anything on this thread topic.
However, I will submit that I am fairly convinced by the well reasoned arguments showing this is not an exploit. OP brought forward a legitimate matter to discussion, and those who responded with examples and such, have won their argument.
But CCP has said nothing, here. Watch this space.-á New exciting signature in development. |
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2013.07.08 08:20:00 -
[53] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:I just want to know how much OP got scammed for. The only people that start these threads are whiny babies who are naive enough to fall for the scam, so OP must fall into that category.
Did they get your life savings, OP?
A month worth of level 4 missions?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Your comment adds no value to this conversation. Nothing you said added to my education of this, most intriguing, discussion.
Watch this space.-á New exciting signature in development. |
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
6069
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 08:59:00 -
[54] - Quote
Inokuma Yawara wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:And again, someone is trying to make the case that players need to be protected from their own stupidity. Oh yes, and arguing that cleverness is an exploit.
An exploit is whatever CCP says it is. CCP says this is not an exploit. End of story. No. You and a bunch of other players have been saying it isn't an exploit. No one from CCP has said anything on this thread topic. However, I will submit that I am fairly convinced by the well reasoned arguments showing this is not an exploit. OP brought forward a legitimate matter to discussion, and those who responded with examples and such, have won their argument. But CCP has said nothing, here.
CCP's View on this
Note this part: 6. SCAMMING Severe offenses may result in an immediate ban without warning; however, warnings may be given for first time offenses, followed by account suspensions of varying degree and ultimately a permanent ban if a player:
GÇóa. Illegally obtains items from another through use of an exploit or cheat method. GÇób. Intentionally creates contracts that cannot be completed through normal game mechanics or abilities. GÇóc. Has been told by a GM to discontinue a scam ploy and disregards the instruction.
** Nothing about Market scamming as OP is discussing it. I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!-á Now... where's Ken? |
Utzam
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.07.08 10:48:00 -
[55] - Quote
BoSau Hotim wrote: GÇób. Intentionally creates contracts that cannot be completed through normal game mechanics or abilities.
This makes a remarkably clear case that margin trade scamming is against the rules.
The current system protects those who abuse margin trading by withholding information relating to buy/sell orders. Buy/sell orders should not be special cased in favor of the scammers.
Simple solutions do exist to this problem.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15115
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Posted - 2013.07.08 10:50:00 -
[56] - Quote
Utzam wrote:BoSau Hotim wrote: GÇób. Intentionally creates contracts that cannot be completed through normal game mechanics or abilities.
This makes a remarkably clear case that margin trade scamming is against the rules. The current system protects those who abuse margin trading by withholding information relating to buy/sell orders. Buy/sell orders should not be special cased in favor of the scammers. Simple solutions do exist to this problem. That was put there for completely different reasons. Plus this mechanic is using normal game mechanics, so no sorry. But nice try.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Utzam
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 11:03:00 -
[57] - Quote
Mag's wrote: Plus this mechanic is using normal game mechanics, so no sorry. But nice try.
Cyno's in the middle of the sun also use normal game mechanics. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15399
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 12:19:00 -
[58] - Quote
Utzam wrote:This is the source of the problem. What problem? The buyer is never at risk (beyond losing a lot of cash on nothing) but neither is the seller. The seller doesn't particularly need to know the state of someone else's wallet because if it doesn't cover the sale, nothing happens and no-one gets hurt.
Quote:The current set of margin trading scams are abusing the game mechanics. In what way?
Quote:Two changes are needed. The first is that the entire escrow amount should be fair game for the seller to take from the buyer in the event a margin buy order defaults. The escrow amount should be at least 25-40% of the total value of the buy order. The amount in escrow should be visible in the market. The first two are already the case; the last one should definitely not happen, since people have no business knowing other people's wallet states.
Quote:This makes a remarkably clear case that margin trade scamming is against the rules. GǪexcept that it's not a contract and that it can be completed through normal game mechanics and abilities. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
knowsitall
Adeptus iNdustry and Logistics Silent Eviction
15
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Posted - 2013.07.08 12:31:00 -
[59] - Quote
Kalliel Egnald wrote:This is more of a discussion intended to plea my point of view and belief and see if others agree.
Margin Trading is a Skill which reduces the amount of Escrow required to be put up at the point of a Buy Order's Issuing. Thus allowing a player to place buy orders which exceeds his current wallet funds. Now this is a valid skill and Margin Trading is an actual economic thing which many players successfully play every day on the markets as they balance buying and selling so that their issued buy orders are filled upon their purchase.
However, this has opened up a method of conning players out of their isk known as 'Margin Scamming' where a player will issue a buy order that is grossly above the market average then emptying their wallets so that when ever some one tries to fill that buy order, the trade is cancelled simply because the player's wallet lacks the funds to fill the buy order. This scam is usually accompanied by using alts to provide the asked items, usually at an inflated price.
Now, i am not against scamming. Market and Player freedom are things which makes Eve great in my eyes. However, this 'scam' is using an exploit... That is exploiting the fact that a players wallet can never go into the Red. Because we can never accrue debt, orders that can not be filled are simply cancelled. Which means those that intentionally default on these buy orders are never charged, punished, or even put out by their actions.
I understand, however, that debt is something that would crush the standing Eve market because it would be a source of infinite isk as players would simply obtain billions upon billions in debt then throw that character away, never paying the accumulated debt back. So that is not a solution to this problem. Further more, Margin Trading is a valid method of market play allowing players to move mountains of assets and Isk liquidized in orders on the markets, so outright removing the ability is also not really an option.
However, i view this as an Issue which is required to be looked at as these players are Exploiting the Player Wallet in order to advance themselves above other at the expense of the inexperienced player.
Now before you go and say- 'You're whining because you got scammed' or something to that extent but probably in not so many words... I have never fell for Margin Scamming, And i am not one that thinks negatively about scamming because i believe that it is a valid way to play EvE as you're out-witting and out-playing others in the game. But it is just something that i have observe and have an adverse feeling towards because i believe that it is exploiting the game itself rather then praying upon and exploiting others, which is what EvE is all.
I would be intrested in hearing others feelings and thoughts on this matter. so... what do you think?
I agree with this. I think an easy fix would be regardless of your margins trading buy orders should take into escrow a minimum of a buy of your minimum volume. Therefore ALWAYS one buy order has to be fill but not all. Then when a buy order is filled, it does an new escrow for for the minimum volume.
This way people who are not "scamming" still only need a some escrow (especially as they tend to have 1 unit minimum orders) people falsely avertising that they buy stuff have to buy 1 order, then if they can't fill the escrow for the second minimum their order is cancelled.
I think this would do it.
KIA |
Utzam
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:05:00 -
[60] - Quote
Tippia wrote:What problem? The buyer is never at risk (beyond losing a lot of cash on nothing) but neither is the seller. The seller doesn't particularly need to know the state of someone else's wallet because if it doesn't cover the sale, nothing happens and no-one gets hurt.
Yes, your making a great case for their being a problem. No-one getting hurt is a relative distinction based on your assumption that the buyer can walk away from their buy order after the seller accepts.
The fact that this is even a scam is amusing because ultimately the seller should be walking all over them for putting up such a grossly overpriced buy contract. This is a well documented part of contract law. The current implementation in Eve is incomplete.
Tippia wrote: The first two are already the case..
False. If the buy order defaults the buyer gets to walk away instead of being forced to give the seller his entire escrow amount. The key here is that the buyer loses his escrow to the seller.
Tippia wrote: Look, if you don't even understand the mechanics involved, maybe you should resist trying to claim they are problematic or an exploit since you quite simply don't know whether or not it is working as intended due to your unfamiliarity with said mechanics.
Very familiar actually. Understanding how the mechanics work and realizing that Eve's implementation is faulty are not mutually exclusive.
Quote:This makes a remarkably clear case that margin trade scamming is against the rules. exploit n. to take advantage of (a person, situation, etc.), esp unethically or unjustly for one's own ends
Tippia wrote: GǪexcept that it's not a contract and that it can be completed through normal game mechanics and abilities
con-+tract n. An agreement between two or more parties, especially one that is written and enforceable by law.
Buy orders certainly qualify as contracts by any reasonable definition. I wouldn't confine yourself to such a static rule set. Laws change all the time, and it's about time CCP fixed this. |
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