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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
509
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:12:00 -
[61] - Quote
Inokuma Yawara wrote:
Your comment adds no value to this conversation. Nothing you said added to my education of this, most intriguing, discussion.
This entire discussion adds no value to anything, so that's par for the course. You must be incredibly new here, since this topic has come up at least once per month since I have been playing, with exactly the same discussion and results.
FFS, the entire process of the margin trading scam and how to avoid it is detailed on the Evelopedia of all ******, outdated things.
Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
544
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:20:00 -
[62] - Quote
First, IRL law have really no direct effect on what ahppens in EVE. The laws are made by CCP in game. Contractual laws are just as meanigless as criminal laws.
Second, having the buyer lose his escrow if his buy order fails because he does not have the ISK to complete it can probably close the loop-hole of geneating "dupe isks" but I am pretty sure people would find a way to use the system in a new way to benefit from it and make people e-rage at it again. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
509
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:24:00 -
[63] - Quote
Utzam wrote:contract contract contract
You keep using this word.
Contracts and buy/sell orders are two completely different mechanics in EVE.
A contract is a direct agreement between players, and allows for a whole host of scamming, almost all of which is totally and completely legal in game.
Buy and sell orders are market mechanics, neither of which is an explicit direct agreement between any two players. It allows for almost no direct scamming at all.
In either case, each type of available scam relies not upon breaking any rules or bending any mechanics, but upon players being naive, stupid, greedy, or unable/unwilling to read and research what it is they are buying.
What you people want is for EVE to save people from themselves. It's not that kind of game. It provides all the warnings you need, but it's not going to stop you clicking the button. Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15399
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:24:00 -
[64] - Quote
Utzam wrote:Yes, your making a great case for their being a problem. No-one getting hurt is a relative distinction based on your assumption that the buyer can walk away from their buy order after the seller accepts. GǪso what's the problem? And yes, no-one gets hurt: everyone leaves with their assets intact. At most, the buyer's assets are less than they should be, but that's part of the risk he assumes in setting up the order.
Quote:The current implementation in Eve is incomplete. No. It is just not emulating its namesake.
Quote:False. If the buy order defaults No, it's entirely correct. You can't default in EVE. The mechanics don't allow for it because it would create massive ISK duping exploits. If the buyer has no more money after the escrow amount is exhausted, the order is trashed. The key here is that the entire escrow amount has been paid out, just like you asked. There is no more money in escrow. The buyer has already lost it all to the broker who has already transferred it all to the seller. The order is not closed until the escrow amount has been exhausted.
So again, you're showing that you're not familiar with the mechanics involved. You can keep claiming that you are, but then you belie this claim with your suggestions. If you're familiar with the mechanics, why do you keep saying things that aren't true? Why do you ask them to implement measures that are already in place?
Quote:exploit n.
to take advantage of (a person, situation, etc.), esp unethically or unjustly for one's own ends the use of a bug or glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers. Fixed. So no, there is no exploit.
Quote:con-+tract n. An agreement between two or more parties, especially one that is written and enforceable by law. -á Contracts is a new system, where you can trade your items in various fashions with other players or corporations. GǪbut we're talking about buy orders, not contracts. The rule against contract exploits deal with certain bugs that allowed you to set up contracts for e.g. stacks of unstackable items. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
388
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:30:00 -
[65] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:What you people want is for EVE to save people from themselves. It's not that kind of game. It provides all the warnings you need, but it's not going to stop you clicking the button.
It is. Take out insurance, and all these warning boxes, and you'll have a point. Otherwise, it's built into this game all about ganking and "toughness".
If it's already there, might as well use it. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Ra Jackson
CRIMINALS IN ACTION Initiative Mercenaries
173
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:39:00 -
[66] - Quote
Kalliel Egnald wrote:Molic Blackbird wrote:Working as intended. The game has managed to work just fine with the margin skill in place. If you think it is soooo easy to manipulate the Tritanium market upwards using the margin trade skill, do it yourself and reap the billions upon billions of profit in the process. that sounds like an interesting enough experiment. i shall try it.
That clearly shows that you did not understand the scam. It works only with very low volume items. Pretty much the opposite of Tritanium. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
544
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:42:00 -
[67] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪbut we're talking about buy orders, not contracts. The rule against impossible-to-complete contracts deal with certain bugs that allowed you to set up contracts for e.g. stacks of unstackable items.
One could argue that orders on the market are outstanding contracts with the broker. But that still does not mean we have to follow real life rules with them so meh. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
509
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:42:00 -
[68] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:What you people want is for EVE to save people from themselves. It's not that kind of game. It provides all the warnings you need, but it's not going to stop you clicking the button. It is. Take out insurance, and all these warning boxes, and you'll have a point. Otherwise, it's built into this game all about ganking and "toughness". If it's already there, might as well use it.
Providing warning signs doesn't save anyone from themselves.
If it did, I would have never sold my first 100 million ISK Firetail, to say nothing of those that followed.
If it did, greedy people would not be 'scammed' by paying far too much for items on the marketplace.
All the warning signs in the world will not save someone if they are determined to click the button anyway. Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Krete
Crystal Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:47:00 -
[69] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Utzam wrote:contract contract contract You keep using this word. Contracts and buy/sell orders are two completely different mechanics in EVE. A contract is a direct agreement between players, and allows for a whole host of scamming, almost all of which is totally and completely legal in game.
Not everyone agrees with you.
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
509
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:52:00 -
[70] - Quote
Krete wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Utzam wrote:contract contract contract You keep using this word. Contracts and buy/sell orders are two completely different mechanics in EVE. A contract is a direct agreement between players, and allows for a whole host of scamming, almost all of which is totally and completely legal in game. Not everyone agrees with you.
CCP agrees with me, and they're the only ones who actually matter in this case. Until and unless they deem that these things are exploits, they are not. Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
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E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy Caldari State
230
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:54:00 -
[71] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No. People not knowing what stuff is worth is not an exploit.
Not knowing may not be an exploit but using the mechanic on purpose should be. This should be simple enough to prove. If the person places the buy order and then cleans out the wallet (easily seen by ccp) then I would have to say this act in itself is an admission of knowing. |
E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy Caldari State
230
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:59:00 -
[72] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Utzam wrote:Yes, your making a great case for their being a problem. No-one getting hurt is a relative distinction based on your assumption that the buyer can walk away from their buy order after the seller accepts. GǪso what's the problem? And yes, no-one gets hurt: everyone leaves with their assets intact. At most, the buyer's assets are less than they should be, but that's part of the risk he assumes in setting up the order. [ Quote:False. If the buy order defaults No, it's entirely correct. You can't default in EVE. The mechanics don't allow for it because it would create massive ISK duping exploits. If the buyer has no more money after the escrow amount is exhausted, the order is trashed. The key here is that the entire escrow amount has been paid out, just like you asked. There is no more money in escrow. The buyer has already lost it all to the broker who has already transferred it all to the seller. The order is not closed until the escrow amount has been exhausted. So again, you're showing that you're not familiar with the mechanics involved. You can keep claiming that you are, but then you belie this claim with your suggestions. If you're familiar with the mechanics, why do you keep saying things that aren't true? Why do you ask them to implement measures that are already in place? Quote:exploit n.
to take advantage of (a person, situation, etc.), esp unethically or unjustly for one's own ends the use of a bug or glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers. Fixed. So no, there is no exploit. Quote:con-+tract n. An agreement between two or more parties, especially one that is written and enforceable by law. -á Contracts is a new system, where you can trade your items in various fashions with other players or corporations. GǪbut we're talking about buy orders, not contracts. The rule against impossible-to-complete contracts deal with certain bugs that allowed you to set up contracts for e.g. stacks of unstackable items. Drawing a line thru a definition doesnt fix or change that definition. At least not for the majority of us grounded in reality. |
Utzam
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 13:59:00 -
[73] - Quote
Tippia wrote: So again, you're showing that you're not familiar with the mechanics involved. You can keep claiming that you are, but then you belie this claim with your suggestions. If you're familiar with the mechanics, why do you keep saying things that aren't true? Why do you ask them to implement measures that are already in place?
It's quite accurate to refer to this situation as a default. That the process of a default is not fully implemented by Eve does not negate that categorization.
Tippia wrote: The key here is that the entire escrow amount has been paid out, just like you asked. There is no more money in escrow. The buyer has already lost it all to the broker who has already transferred it all to the seller. The order is not closed until the escrow amount has been exhausted.
False. You can't have it both ways. Also, consider we're talking about margin trade scams where the minimum buy amount is often equal to the total quantity on the buy order.
The seller absolutely does not receive the escrow amount since the game will cancel out the order prematurely due to the buyer not having sufficient ISK for the full trade.
As the seller I expect to receive the entire amount in escrow (e.g. if they are selling something at $2M that normally costs $1M and have 50% in escrow on a buy order for 1000 units where they can only pay for 500 based on the current escrow, the seller exchanges 500 units at the $2M unit cost for the full amount in escrow).
If I as the seller have 1000 units and meet the requirements for the order, I should walk away with $1B and still have 500 units left over.
Tippia wrote: So again, you're showing that you're not familiar with the mechanics involved. You can keep claiming that you are, but then you belie this claim with your suggestions.
You're troll has no power here.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15399
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 14:00:00 -
[74] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:One could argue that orders on the market are outstanding contracts with the broker. No, you couldn't, because market trading does not make use of the contracting mechanics in any way.
Ace Uoweme wrote:It is. Take out insurance, and all these warning boxes, and you'll have a point. Incorrect, as always. None of those save people from themselves. In fact, those are good examples of what he's talking about: warnings, not preventions. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Krete
Crystal Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 14:00:00 -
[75] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Krete wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Utzam wrote:contract contract contract You keep using this word. Contracts and buy/sell orders are two completely different mechanics in EVE. A contract is a direct agreement between players, and allows for a whole host of scamming, almost all of which is totally and completely legal in game. Not everyone agrees with you. CCP agrees with me, and they're the only ones who actually matter in this case. Until and unless they deem that these things are exploits, they are not.
Citation needed.
And that doesn't change that not everyone agrees with you. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
509
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 14:05:00 -
[76] - Quote
Krete wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Krete wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Utzam wrote:contract contract contract You keep using this word. Contracts and buy/sell orders are two completely different mechanics in EVE. A contract is a direct agreement between players, and allows for a whole host of scamming, almost all of which is totally and completely legal in game. Not everyone agrees with you. CCP agrees with me, and they're the only ones who actually matter in this case. Until and unless they deem that these things are exploits, they are not. Citation needed. And that doesn't change that not everyone agrees with you.
I don't need to cite anything.
Cite where CCP has deemed this to be an exploit. Because you cannot, it is not, regardless of who disagrees with me. Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
509
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 14:07:00 -
[77] - Quote
Utzam wrote: As the seller I expect to receive the entire amount in escrow
Why would you receive anything? Under the indicated conditions, the buy order failed and no transaction took place; you still have your product. If you cannot then sell it for a profit elsewhere, the problem lies with you for having made a bad purchase. Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
398
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 14:19:00 -
[78] - Quote
Margin Trading. A host of legitimate trading applications, that allow you to spread your isk farther than it would normally go, and invest yourself in numerous different markets simultaneously. A pillar of the economy.
And we are supposed to believe that because one of it many, many applications can be used to scam morons out of money, that the skill itself in an exploit?
Not buying it. (which, also, is the ultimate defense against Margin Trading scams, just don't buy it. ) Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15399
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 14:20:00 -
[79] - Quote
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:Not knowing may not be an exploit but using the mechanic on purpose should be. No, it really shouldn't. Exploits deal with bugs in the game and unintended effects. People not knowing the mechanics and making mistakes because of it does not qualify as either of those.
Quote:Drawing a line thru a definition doesnt fix or change that definition. No, but it highlights the part of the suggested definition that is irrelevant for the context.
Utzam wrote:It's quite accurate to refer to this situation as a default. GǪyou mean aside from sharing none of its characteristics. So it seems rather odd to categorize it as a default when all requirements have been fulfilled.
Quote:False. You can't have it both ways. What two ways, and what's false about it? The seller receives any amount of money in escrow until those funds have been depleted. As the seller, you receive the full amount in escrow if your sale amounts to that much. What's confusing you is that you're not fully familiar with the mechanics of how margin trading works in EVE: it lowers the amount of money you need to put into escrow in order to set up a buy order. The money in escrow is still being paid out, in full, to anyone who fulfils the requirements for the order as long as there is enough ISK to complete the transaction.
Quote:As the seller I expect to receive the entire amount in escrow (e.g. if they are selling something at $2M that normally costs $1M and have 50% in escrow on a buy order for 1000 units where they can only pay for 500 based on the current escrow, the seller exchanges 500 units at the $2M unit cost for the full amount in escrow).
If I as the seller have 1000 units and meet the requirements for the order, I should walk away with $1B and still have 500 units left over. GǪwhich is exactly what happens. At least unless someone else has a cheaper order on the market, in which case they get the money, or unless there is too little cash in escrow to complete the transaction.
Pointing out that someone is wrong is not trolling. The simple fact of the matter is that you're wrong: what you're asking for is already in the game.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Rogue Aspire
The Reblier Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 15:05:00 -
[80] - Quote
It's only an exploit because you want it to be.
If it was going to crush the market then it would have happened many years ago.
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Krete
Crystal Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 15:42:00 -
[81] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Utzam wrote: As the seller I expect to receive the entire amount in escrow
Why would you receive anything? Under the indicated conditions, the buy order failed and no transaction took place; you still have your product. If you cannot then sell it for a profit elsewhere, the problem lies with you for having made a bad purchase.
I think the point he's making is that buy orders in the game are not binding and this doesn't reflect reality at all.
Depends on your point of view whether or not this is an exploit. It deserves a fresh look at least and productive conversation from the community.
Whether or not you agree with it, making buy orders binding would fix the margin trade scamming problem. Is this what everyone's afraid of?
How many replies on this thread are really from margin trading scammers? |
Orbelea
Perpetuum Industries
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 15:58:00 -
[82] - Quote
Krete wrote: I think the point he's making is that buy orders in the game are not binding and this doesn't reflect reality at all.
Depends on your point of view whether or not this is an exploit. It deserves a fresh look at least and productive conversation from the community.
Whether or not you agree with it, making buy orders binding would fix the margin trade scamming problem. Is this what everyone's afraid of?
How many replies on this thread are really from margin trading scammers?
Look, its not an exploit for the simple reason Devs introduced margin trading and knew the buy order would not be binding, its an intended mechanic, therefore not an exploit.
There is no problem with the skill. Greedy players who think that just because there is 1 inflated by order, that's the real value of the item. This an incorrect assumption to make. You need to research and look at an average then you will realize its to good to be true, CCP cannot fix ignorance.
You cant make it binding because your wallet will go negative, and that would be a huge and much bigger problem!
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Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1041
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 16:09:00 -
[83] - Quote
Because you can't differentiate between a person buying an officer module to use and to sell to a buy order for a quick profit, the only way to "fix" margin trading scams is to get rid of the skill.
I think removing jita chat would solve 80% of your problem actually. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy Caldari State
230
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 16:15:00 -
[84] - Quote
Tippia wrote:E-2C Hawkeye wrote:Not knowing may not be an exploit but using the mechanic on purpose should be. No, it really shouldn't. Exploits deal with bugs in the game and unintended effects. People not knowing the mechanics and making mistakes because of it does not qualify as either of those.
LMAO so you think when somone places a buy order and cleans out their wallet right after and they dont know is going on? I understand you will say almost anything to try and be right but please stop acting like the people in these forums are not smart enough to see through it. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
399
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 16:24:00 -
[85] - Quote
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:Tippia wrote:E-2C Hawkeye wrote:Not knowing may not be an exploit but using the mechanic on purpose should be. No, it really shouldn't. Exploits deal with bugs in the game and unintended effects. People not knowing the mechanics and making mistakes because of it does not qualify as either of those. LMAO so you think when somone places a buy order and cleans out their wallet right after and they dont know is going on? I understand you will say almost anything to try and be right but please stop acting like the people in these forums are not smart enough to see through it.
You misunderstand completely. The person "not knowing the mechanics" in Tippia's reference is not the person using Margin Trading, but rather the person getting fleeced by it, because they didn't understand how the whole thing works.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Krete
Crystal Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 16:36:00 -
[86] - Quote
Orbelea wrote: You cant make it binding because your wallet will go negative, and that would be a huge and much bigger problem!
Not really. Their escrow and whatever else is in their wallet would be sufficient.
Take them down to 0 isk. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15400
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 16:37:00 -
[87] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Because you can't differentiate between a person buying an officer module to use and to sell to a buy order for a quick profit, the only way to "fix" margin trading scams is to get rid of the skill. GǪwhich raises the question of why it needs to be fixed. It's not a problem, after all.
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:LMAO so you think when somone places a buy order and cleans out their wallet right after and they dont know is going on? No, I think that if someone looks at the market and sees a buy order and then blindly believes that this means that he is mechanically ensured to get that exact amount of money, he doesn't know what's going on.
Falling for a the margin trading scam is no different than not updating the market window and failing to notice that someone else beat you to the sale (or the buyer cancelled the order): the order is gone, you still have the goods, you are free to try some other order to liquidate your stuff. If at any point you didn't do your research and bought stuff at outrageously inflated prices, then that's your problem. So your not paying attention or being unfamiliar with the market mechanics does not make it an exploit.
Krete wrote:Not really. Their escrow and whatever else is in their wallet would be sufficient.
Take them down to 0 isk. You mean kind of like how it already works? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Orbelea
Perpetuum Industries
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 16:45:00 -
[88] - Quote
Krete wrote:Orbelea wrote: You cant make it binding because your wallet will go negative, and that would be a huge and much bigger problem!
Not really. Their escrow and whatever else is in their wallet would be sufficient. Take them down to 0 isk.
Good thinking , now we have isk created out of nothing. i'll be a trilionaire overnight with my alt's assistance. |
Portia Venetia
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 16:45:00 -
[89] - Quote
My chief complaint with the Margin Trading scam is that it defies the definition of that term used in any other market. The EVE market behaves like a typical commodity exchange in almost every other regard except when it comes to margin trading and buy orders.
In any commodity market I know of, there's no such thing as an uncloseable buy order. An order on the board will be filled if a seller steps up to fill it. The buyer may cancel their order at any time before it is filled, but they are on the hook the moment the transaction takes place. It is not unreasonable to expect people to rely on their knowledge of market operations when viewing buy orders when every other part of the EVE market works as expected in RL markets. I have expounded on these differences in previous posts.
There are good and salient points made about how difficult or even impossible it would be to implement true "margin trading" in EVE (the argument against negative wallet balances and the disposable nature of characters, for instance), and I generally agree with those. I don't think Margin Trading needs to be "fixed" in that regard.
I do feel however that some distinction should be made between clear, fillable buy orders, and those that cannot be closed because there is insufficient capital in the buyer's wallet to complete the order. This would, to some degree, keep the EVE market aligned with the typical expectation of commodity market operations. My best suggestion for this in the past has been that for those buy orders where Minimum Volume * Buy Amount > Wallet Balance, the order is highlighted in red and provides the message "This order can not be filled at this time" when the user mouses over that order line in the market interface. In this way the user may know exactly how the market will operate, which is what is expected. |
Utzam
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 16:45:00 -
[90] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So your not paying attention or being unfamiliar with the market mechanics does not make it an exploit.
You seem to have a vested interest in keeping this exploit around.
The fantasy world you live sounds awesome. I'd like to subscribe to your RSS feed.
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