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Rivek
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Posted - 2005.12.05 07:49:00 -
[1]
The new drone changes are largely good and interesting. Adding drones with new effects gives new tactical options, which few will argue with. I am, though, very concerned about the potentially uber damage output of our normal damage dealing drones with the new modules, skills, and ship bonuses. Consider a Dominix with some maxed out skills.
Lets assume:
Gallente BS 5: +50% dmg Drone interfacing 5: +100% dmg Heavy drones 5: + 50% dmg Drone Specialization 4: +8% dmg 1x T2 Drone Dmg mod: +23% dmg Ogre II's: 24 base damage, 1.92 base multiplier, 2.0 sec rof 5x Drone control module 1's (these allow +1 drone controlled and use up a high slot and 75 cpu, limit 5)
Multiplying this all out gives us:
24 x 1.92 x 1.25 x 2.0 x 1.5 x 1.08 / 2 = 93 dps for 1 ogre 2 with no damage mod.
Add the damage mod and you get 93 x 1.23 = 114 dps.
Multiply that by 10x drones and you have 1140 dps... gankageddon equivilent, with only 1 damage mod. Now add in additional damage mods. I dont know the stacking formula so lets estimate that the second damage mod gives a 19% bonus and the third gives a 14% bonus to dps.
1140 x 1.19 x 1.14 = 1546 dps
1546 damage per second with cruiser like tracking.
Getting absurd yet? I think so.
See your name in lights at TunDraGon.com |
Shirei
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Posted - 2005.12.05 07:51:00 -
[2]
And that is only with Ogres...
With the Sentry drones it should be even more ridiculous.
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.12.05 07:55:00 -
[3]
how many ravens are used in fleets successfully?
Drones take 3x longer to get there. And when you warp out you lose them :)
Originally by: WildCard "NOW Flyzone" before after
Be back in a year or so |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.12.05 07:57:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Shirei And that is only with Ogres...
With the Sentry drones it should be even more ridiculous.
no it couldn't. i did the maths. it barely broke 1000 with gallente.
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Hellspawn666
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:02:00 -
[5]
I was under the understanding that rmr would only allow 5 droens at any one time... Plus tbh your assumations are silly not many people have those all trained so high and the few that do disever a high dps.
The fact is this is far weaker then a gankageddon since it takes bleedin ages for the drone damage to kick in anless your right on top of the enemy, even then ofcourse your droens are targetablee and post patch will be more manageable so a clever pilot will easily destroy them before they even reach him. But its gonna be interesting to see how they work... im more afraid of the defending group of ppl at a fleet battle setting up about 50 sentry droens tbh witht eh long range that could be very scary.
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Zapp Brannigen
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:02:00 -
[6]
Out of curiosity, with a similar tier1 battleship designed for turret/missile warfare (aka damage bonuses) what would be it's equivalent DPS? Considering if you also trained your skills to attain T2 turrets/damagemods/ammunition? (For example, Large Turrets V, Large Turret Specialization IV... etc).
With the amount of training necessary to see that kind of output from heavy drones, if instead you went turrets how different is it really?
Also, according to the site, Dominix current dronebay is 375m3, which going to be halved to 190m3... so you can only have 7 heavy drones at most. With your calculations, drops the DPS down to 1082 instead. (But probably more since you free up 3 high slots for turrets/whatever).
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Punktious
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:04:00 -
[7]
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Shirei And that is only with Ogres...
With the Sentry drones it should be even more ridiculous.
no it couldn't. i did the maths. it barely broke 1000 with gallente.
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure they do 50 in dmg every 2 second, without skills and ship bonus.
---------------------------- Bathing in cold water is, just like hitting yourself in the head.... nice when you stop doing it. |
Shirei
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:05:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Zapp Brannigen Out of curiosity, with a similar tier1 battleship designed for turret/missile warfare (aka damage bonuses) what would be it's equivalent DPS? Considering if you also trained your skills to attain T2 turrets/damagemods/ammunition? (For example, Large Turrets V, Large Turret Specialization IV... etc).
With the amount of training necessary to see that kind of output from heavy drones, if instead you went turrets how different is it really?
Twice as much roughly.
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Punktious
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:10:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zapp Brannigen
Also, according to the site, Dominix current dronebay is 375m3, which going to be halved to 190m3... so you can only have 7 heavy drones at most. With your calculations, drops the DPS down to 1082 instead. (But probably more since you free up 3 high slots for turrets/whatever).
This site is allready been updated with the RMR drone stats dronebay wise. The Dominix has 375m3 dronespace in RMR. ---------------------------- Bathing in cold water is, just like hitting yourself in the head.... nice when you stop doing it. |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:15:00 -
[10]
Drone enhancement modules are a Bad IdeaÖ.
The very fact that you have fairly substantial DPS without even fitting a single module on your ship should be enough of an advantage, being able to double your drone armada, and enhance their damge and being able to run electronic warfare and being able to armor tank is a BIT MUCH. ------ Campaign to remove shield hardener effects, they suck!! |
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Kryptic1
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Rivek
Heavy drones 5: + 50% dmg
Heavy Drone Operation gives 5% damage per level, not 10%.
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Rivek
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:20:00 -
[12]
Gankship style gunships can get 1200 dps or so right now. They will achieve less in RMR. But even then thats ignoring the fact that said gunships have 7 or 8 damage mods in lowslots. These numbers were achieved with 1, 2, or 3 damage mods.
Even without ANY damage mods a dominix with 5 of these drone control modules will put out a huge amount of damage. Far too much I think. Far more than other battleships will be doing post RMR. A dominix can still fit a tank or Ewar quite easily while doing this crazy damage.
And as for the range? I don't care about fleet battles aka lagfests. 90% of fights for me are within 30k of a gate or station. I'm willing to bet 90% of fights for most people who actively pvp (and dont wait until their alliance calls for blobbing) also do battle within 30k most of the time.
See your name in lights at TunDraGon.com |
Rivek
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:21:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kryptic1
Originally by: Rivek
Heavy drones 5: + 50% dmg
Heavy Drone Operation gives 5% damage per level, not 10%.
Correct, my mistake. I did the actual calculation with a 25% bonus though so the point remains.
See your name in lights at TunDraGon.com |
Dust Angel
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Rivek Gankship style gunships can get 1200 dps or so right now. They will achieve less in RMR. But even then thats ignoring the fact that said gunships have 7 or 8 damage mods in lowslots. These numbers were achieved with 1, 2, or 3 damage mods.
Even without ANY damage mods a dominix with 5 of these drone control modules will put out a huge amount of damage. Far too much I think. Far more than other battleships will be doing post RMR. A dominix can still fit a tank or Ewar quite easily while doing this crazy damage.
And as for the range? I don't care about fleet battles aka lagfests. 90% of fights for me are within 30k of a gate or station. I'm willing to bet 90% of fights for most people who actively pvp (and dont wait until their alliance calls for blobbing) also do battle within 30k most of the time.
Ganka gets 1600 dps iirc.
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:22:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 05/12/2005 08:24:11
Originally by: Rivek The new drone changes are largely good and interesting. Adding drones with new effects gives new tactical options, which few will argue with. I am, though, very concerned about the potentially uber damage output of our normal damage dealing drones with the new modules, skills, and ship bonuses. Consider a Dominix with some maxed out skills.
Lets assume:
Gallente BS 5: +50% dmg Drone interfacing 5: +100% dmg Heavy drones 5: + 50% dmg Drone Specialization 4: +8% dmg 1x T2 Drone Dmg mod: +23% dmg Ogre II's: 24 base damage, 1.92 base multiplier, 2.0 sec rof 5x Drone control module 1's (these allow +1 drone controlled and use up a high slot and 75 cpu, limit 5)
Multiplying this all out gives us:
24 x 1.92 x 1.25 x 2.0 x 1.5 x 1.08 / 2 = 93 dps for 1 ogre 2 with no damage mod.
Add the damage mod and you get 93 x 1.23 = 114 dps.
Multiply that by 10x drones and you have 1140 dps... gankageddon equivilent, with only 1 damage mod. Now add in additional damage mods. I dont know the stacking formula so lets estimate that the second damage mod gives a 19% bonus and the third gives a 14% bonus to dps.
1140 x 1.19 x 1.14 = 1546 dps
1546 damage per second with cruiser like tracking.
Getting absurd yet? I think so.
Confusing: You (incorrectly) say that heavy drones 5 is 50%, but then (correctly) include it as a 25% effect.
Regardless numbers wise it is getting a little over the top, given it is only using 5/6 high slots, 3/7 low slots and about 2/3 of the dominix's CPU.
Edit :
13 posts in between starting and posting sheesh . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:25:00 -
[16]
Dominix, Flavor of the month (tm) ?
From all comments I see on the forums, it looks very much like that. ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well ... |
Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:26:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 05/12/2005 08:32:05 Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 05/12/2005 08:30:15
Originally by: Jim Raynor Drone enhancement modules are a Bad IdeaÖ.
The very fact that you have fairly substantial DPS without even fitting a single module on your ship should be enough of an advantage, being able to double your drone armada, and enhance their damge and being able to run electronic warfare and being able to armor tank is a BIT MUCH.
damage mods, tracking modules, range modules all seem fine to me, the drone control modules when specifically put on a dominix however are way over the top imho. (putting the two you could use on a typhoon not anywhere near as powerfull )
Edit add :
2x drone control on typhoon : 40% base damage/hitpoint increase while using 100% utilization of the dronebay instead of 71%.
5x drone control on dominix : 200% base damage/hitpoint increase while going from 33% to 66% dronebay utilization.
Edit add 2 :
The dominix is of course 100% increase over its none control boosted RmR stats, but 200% over the base abilitys of 5x heavys. . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Darwinia
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:28:00 -
[18]
Actually.. if you fit +drone modules you don't fit Nos.. if you don't fit nos, you have to fit cap rechargers to tank.. so no EW. +drone damage modules will be low slot, so you have to gimp your armour tank.
Also with only 5 mid slots and no bonuses, EW on a Dominix is really not that strong.. not to mention you can't fit warp scramblers or speed modules.
In it's current form, the Dominix got a great boost.. but if you take into account the drone's inherent drawbacks (not to mention things like the humping bug), plus the fact that you pretty much need maxed skills to get it uber.. it's not that bad.
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Rivek
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:29:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Rivek on 05/12/2005 08:30:19 Based on a quick calc, I'm thinking a Moros can break 5 or 6,000 dps with its bonuses and alot of drone modules fitted. Who needs siege weaponry?
edit: might have done the calc wrong, i need some sleep and will try again tommorow.
See your name in lights at TunDraGon.com |
Shirei
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:31:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dust Angel Ganka gets 1600 dps iirc.
1200. And gets reduced to 700-800 with 3-4 damage mods after the patch (depending on how exactly the new stacking penalty works).
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Lorth
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:32:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Rivek Edited by: Rivek on 05/12/2005 08:21:47 The new drone changes are largely good and interesting. Adding drones with new effects gives new tactical options, which few will argue with. I am, though, very concerned about the potentially uber damage output of our normal damage dealing drones with the new modules, skills, and ship bonuses. Consider a Dominix with some maxed out skills.
Lets assume:
Gallente BS 5: +50% dmg Drone interfacing 5: +100% dmg Heavy drones 5: + 25% dmg Drone Specialization 4: +8% dmg 1x T2 Drone Dmg mod: +23% dmg Ogre II's: 24 base damage, 1.92 base multiplier, 2.0 sec rof 5x Drone control module 1's (these allow +1 drone controlled and use up a high slot and 75 cpu, limit 5)
Multiplying this all out gives us:
24 x 1.92 x 1.25 x 2.0 x 1.5 x 1.08 / 2 = 93 dps for 1 ogre 2 with no damage mod.
Add the damage mod and you get 93 x 1.23 = 114 dps.
Multiply that by 10x drones and you have 1140 dps... gankageddon equivilent, with only 1 damage mod. Now add in additional damage mods. I dont know the stacking formula so lets estimate that the second damage mod gives a 19% bonus and the third gives a 14% bonus to dps.
1140 x 1.19 x 1.14 = 1546 dps
1546 damage per second with cruiser like tracking.
Getting absurd yet? I think so.
OMG. I just went through your list of skills... check check check... I have everyone maxed out. Wow and to think I was worried that the domi was going to be nerfed in this patch. I'm going to be able to fly the most overpowered ship, and start from the ground floor with maxed skills. You sir just made my day.
And before anyone says anything. I'm in agreement that this sound utterly overpowering. The reason I havn't trained amar past frig 3, is because I hate flying the so called 'best' ships in eve (ie pre-nerf geddon)
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Shirei
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:33:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Darwinia Actually.. if you fit +drone modules you don't fit Nos.. if you don't fit nos, you have to fit cap rechargers to tank.. so no EW. +drone damage modules will be low slot, so you have to gimp your armour tank.
Ships with that damage output shouldn't be able to tank at all.. The highest damage output you can currently (before patch) get out of a tanked ship is on the order of 400-600.
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without
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:37:00 -
[23]
heavy drones have **** poor tracking, aparantly they miss cruisers about 50-60% of the time, so half ur nuber for cruisers.
and heavy drones only hit frigs 0.01% of the time
not to mention the time it takes for your drones to reach the target.
assume domi vs megathron. megathron locks roughly same time as domi. fight is at say 30km. gona take heavy drones 30 sec to get to the megathron. if megathron has 500DPS. its already done 15k hp dmg
your calculation only holds for thermal drones. other drones are much lower
can you even fit 5 of those mods and dmg mods like u said
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Lorth
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:39:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Darwinia Actually.. if you fit +drone modules you don't fit Nos.. if you don't fit nos, you have to fit cap rechargers to tank.. so no EW. +drone damage modules will be low slot, so you have to gimp your armour tank.
Also with only 5 mid slots and no bonuses, EW on a Dominix is really not that strong.. not to mention you can't fit warp scramblers or speed modules.
In it's current form, the Dominix got a great boost.. but if you take into account the drone's inherent drawbacks (not to mention things like the humping bug), plus the fact that you pretty much need maxed skills to get it uber.. it's not that bad.
No this is much worse then a geddon. To gank, right now, the geddon must use at least 15 slots. This domi set-up uses 7. See the problem.
So now you have the domi doing more damage, and with the ability to tank, or use EW (even with only 5 mids ew still rock) Just imagine facing a geddon with the same damage as today, but with an apocs tank, and he's jamming you. Thats the situation you'll see if these numbers are correct, and its going to be nothing but problems.
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Zapp Brannigen
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:44:00 -
[25]
Errr... I believe the calculation is flawed?
When there is a damage enhancer, doesn't the damage bonus go to the damage multiplier? So the calculation should instead be...
(24 * (1.92 * (.5 + 1 + .25 + .08 + .23))) / 2
Which totals to 47.4624 DPS...
Or am I wrong?
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Glassback
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:45:00 -
[26]
Well I havnt done the math, all I know is that a Ferox destroyed every single drone I set on it from my Ishtar the other night on the test server. So anyone thinking that drones are the new "win" button regardless of the damage output is mistaken, they have their weaknesses just like any other weapon.
G.
I've got an idea--an idea so smart that my head would explode if I even began to know what I'm talking about
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Darwinia
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:46:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lorth
Originally by: Darwinia Actually.. if you fit +drone modules you don't fit Nos.. if you don't fit nos, you have to fit cap rechargers to tank.. so no EW. +drone damage modules will be low slot, so you have to gimp your armour tank.
Also with only 5 mid slots and no bonuses, EW on a Dominix is really not that strong.. not to mention you can't fit warp scramblers or speed modules.
In it's current form, the Dominix got a great boost.. but if you take into account the drone's inherent drawbacks (not to mention things like the humping bug), plus the fact that you pretty much need maxed skills to get it uber.. it's not that bad.
No this is much worse then a geddon. To gank, right now, the geddon must use at least 15 slots. This domi set-up uses 7. See the problem.
So now you have the domi doing more damage, and with the ability to tank, or use EW (even with only 5 mids ew still rock) Just imagine facing a geddon with the same damage as today, but with an apocs tank, and he's jamming you. Thats the situation you'll see if these numbers are correct, and its going to be nothing but problems.
Ok, for the record.. I agree the Domi with +drone is overpowered. The point I'm trying to make is that it's not as bad as you claim it to be.. there is NO way you are putting on an Apoc level tank with EW on a Dominix. Consider the whole setup. I've read that a full drone damage setup will take 2/3 of a Domi CPU.. that doesn't leave much for EW (which is CPU intensive)
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Gabriel Karade
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:48:00 -
[28]
While it is a lot of damage it's very easy to pull this Dominix's teeth. If you use 10 Ogre II's in this way, that's it, you don't have a spare wave (you could cram another 5 Ogre II's if you neglect defence against smaller ships) and you don't have any other weaponry.
Lets not forget when comparing it to a pre-patch Armageddon that the latter can also boost its damage by a further 311/sec by employing 5 Ogre II's.
Note: not saying some tweaking may or may not be in order...
(\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:52:00 -
[29]
A geddon with a similar fitting gets a damage per second of about 580.7 with drones. Ogre II consists of most amount of that damage. The geddon is fitted with 1 Heat Sink II, 1 Drone Control (+1 drone), 7x Mega Pulse II, and with max skills. I say "similar fitting" because of the number of slots free.
Oh, and the Drone Damage Module II gives 22% not 23%.
Also, 5x Drone Control Units will cut the Dominix' CPU in half, as well as reduce replacement waves to about 1/2 instead of 2 waves. 345 CPU (30 CPU for the drone damage mod) is usually enough to fit a ship, though the Dominix will struggle fitting a shield tank I should think.
It's difficult to say whether this is overpowered. On paper with numbers it is, however there are several drawbacks unaccounted for: the intensely slow speed of Ogres, their very poor tracking against objects smaller than a battlecruiser (it will do about 30-40% as much damage as normally against a cruiser, reduced further with higher Drone Navigation skill), the easily destructible 500k ISK per drone (base price is slightly less than 300k, but they are T2...), as well as the "easily" reduced DPS (ECM doesn't work quite well against Domi, but your guns may to, if you have a bit of tracking and patience) Their tracking should be compared to cruiser sized blasters. The Ogre II has 3 times as much tracking as an Electron Blaster, but tend to orbit at 1/4th the range (1.2km instead of about 5km)and at 2x the velocity (250m/s+ effectively instead of 150m/s) and in a stupid manner (orbit instead of manual) - all this making the effective tracking intensely poor.
Apparently, when there's new patch notes I sound like I'm 4 years old on christmas EVE on TS. |
Zapp Brannigen
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Posted - 2005.12.05 08:52:00 -
[30]
Can anyone verify my calculation correction? If I'm right, this topic seems to be moot.
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