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voetius
L V B Industries STELLAR CONSTELLATION
64
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Posted - 2013.07.08 15:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Funny, I was just re-reading an article in PC Gamer Jan 2011 entitled :
Face of the Future
"EVE 2.0 would be the worst idea ever. To reboot society, economy, social infrastructure, would be madness", says Torfi. Instead the team refine and reimagine, ... "
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Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
126
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Posted - 2013.07.08 15:46:00 -
[32] - Quote
So here we have two people (see comments above)that if Eve WAS re-written and re-launched would not like it - even though they could not detect the difference? I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Six Six Six
Blood and Decay
183
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Posted - 2013.07.08 15:51:00 -
[33] - Quote
Klandi wrote:So here we have two people (see comments above)that if Eve WAS re-written and re-launched would not like it - even though they could not detect the difference?
I think I'll just answer that with a quote from you.
Klandi wrote: Again, you have missed the point. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4343
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Posted - 2013.07.08 15:53:00 -
[34] - Quote
I see where you are going with this.
There are advantages to rewriting some of the base code in a manner that would be much more friendly to handling load better than what we currently have.
However I get the impression that they are looking at ways to eventually get to node switching heaven without having to rewrite the game from the ground up.
The only issue with a complete rewrite is time. The reality of it is that it would tie up the entire dev team for a few years to get the job done, and in the meantime there would be little (if any) work done on EVE expansions and other content.
The player base won't put up with being put on hold for 18 months, let alone triple that (or more).
So.... in a perfect world yes it would have advantages, but it's simply not practical. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
14
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Posted - 2013.07.08 18:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote:Create a new EVE in the image of EVE
Don't see the point of that as the current EVE isn't perfect but is playable and yeah I know about coding issues.
Then you have Dust to think about (don't think they would have bothered with Dust if they were considering overhauling EVE completely).
Wouldn't it be better to start a new game? Of course they already started with WoD although personally I think that might have been a mistake because of the subject matter.
Edit: One other thing to think about, if you completely redo the game then that is no longer the original game and they do seem to be proud of the fact they've kept the game going for over 10 years.
This. You don't just rewrite a game from scratch if it's going to be the same exact game. That's a huge waste of time. In fact, the entire concept of object oriented programming arose specifically to prevent this type of thing from ever needing to be done. People don't write renderering engines from scratch much any more for instance.
Aside: I don't think WoD is a failure in terms of subject matter. I think it really does need another solid game to remind people what was so engaging about that universe and its core pen and paper gameplay principals of politics and Machiavellian grand level conspiracies. People that are going to play WoD for the long term aren't going to end up playing it because of the vampires, they're going to play it because it's a very interesting universe to be a part of with its own bizarre rules and avenues to power. |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
126
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Posted - 2013.07.08 19:13:00 -
[36] - Quote
PopeUrban wrote: This. You don't just rewrite a game from scratch if it's going to be the same exact game. That's a huge waste of time. In fact, the entire concept of object oriented programming arose specifically to prevent this type of thing from ever needing to be done. People don't write renderering engines from scratch much any more for instance.
So here's the thing. As Python is based around OOP, why then are the team at CCP having such a hard time programming in changes around several simple items - PoSes and drones to name a couple? Why do they and why have they said on many occasions that the code is so "fragile" that changing it could wreak havoc. Are they incompetent? I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Kraal Utrecht
Running with Knives Nexus Fleet
10
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Posted - 2013.07.08 19:14:00 -
[37] - Quote
EVE is not dying. It is just getting old and hermetic. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
4932
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Posted - 2013.07.08 19:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Yes, lets step back 9 years and have Eve 2.0, im so tired of Eve 12.something we have now. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Six Six Six
Blood and Decay
185
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Posted - 2013.07.08 21:45:00 -
[39] - Quote
Klandi wrote:PopeUrban wrote: This. You don't just rewrite a game from scratch if it's going to be the same exact game. That's a huge waste of time. In fact, the entire concept of object oriented programming arose specifically to prevent this type of thing from ever needing to be done. People don't write renderering engines from scratch much any more for instance.
So here's the thing. As Python is based around OOP, why then are the team at CCP having such a hard time programming in changes around several simple items - PoSes and drones to name a couple? Why do they and why have they said on many occasions that the code is so "fragile" that changing it could wreak havoc. Are they incompetent?
Maybe you should ask them as they're the ones dealing with the code.
I see it as either there's a problem of compatibility or it's potentially too much bother to mess around with, meaning there's a real risk of breaking something if they do.
I can't say for modern ones but old emulators didn't emulate 100% there were always a few issues. You say what's this to do with it, well just highlighting potential problems between different codes. |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
126
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Posted - 2013.07.08 23:12:00 -
[40] - Quote
Well, they can contribute to the thread as well - but I think that will be highly unlikely I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
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CCP BunnyVirus
C C P C C P Alliance
963
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Posted - 2013.07.09 00:40:00 -
[41] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:There was a game called Neocron. It was a deus ex style cyberpunk mmorpg. You didn't need to sell the game, we came in droves begging for permission to play (FPS cyberpunk MMORPG OMGWTFBBQGRASS)
Anyway, they decided to do a Neocron 2 rather than keep Neocron and upgrade it, and basically it died. Really died. It's still about as a community built game, but its featureless, buggy and has a peak population of like 100.
Long and short of it is, rebuilding your game will rebuild your playerbase, and you may not like the outcome of that. Especially considering the enormous financial commitment a complete remake takes.
I played it for over 2 years and than it died! 3D Artist |
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Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
220
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Posted - 2013.07.09 01:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
Once the Legacy code is gone I think Eve needs to call it self Eve V2
Or eve finally coming out of beta, a game with over 13 years in the making, play tested for 10 years..... Welcome to EVE 2
Oh then release as a free game Eve the original on an old sever to get that old game play feel. So we can compare the 2 Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Amnesiaa Haze
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
39
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Posted - 2013.07.09 01:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
You're telling CCP to make the same mistake all the other big MMO's which have been&gone made...
They reach a point of sustained success.. and then they go and change everything... try fix what isn't broken, and then they die.
Why would you want to change the thing which made you a success in the first place?
LEAVE, EVE, ALONE.
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Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
2528
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Posted - 2013.07.09 03:18:00 -
[44] - Quote
Whatever.
'sos long as I gets to keep me stuffs...
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Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
126
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Posted - 2013.07.09 09:19:00 -
[45] - Quote
Amnesiaa Haze wrote:You're telling CCP to make the same mistake all the other big MMO's which have been&gone made... They reach a point of sustained success.. and then they go and change everything... try fix what isn't broken, and then they die. Why would you want to change the thing which made you a success in the first place? LEAVE, EVE, ALONE.
I will deal with this firstAmnesiaa Haze wrote: try fix what isn't broken .
Change "breaks" most things. Life is not static and things evolve into better more streamlined ways of living. The steam age was not "broken" , the first Mini Cooper was not "broken" but they had to evolve and if they don't then they become "broken". If what we understand from the previous Technical Producer, the code methodology that allows the game to evolve, is so dysfunctional now that changing parts would cause unforeseeable problems and would take up more time and money to fix. This thing I am talking about is the POS in particular. One of the reasons I dislike doing pos stuff is the antiquated methods used to both assemble the thing into a space factory and the rights issues. If you have ever tried to do any of the above you would wonder at the incompetency. It needs to be fixed because this is broken and they (CCP) are saying they cannot - citing code issues.
I want to play and enjoy this game as much as you - but I want to also contribute to the improvement of Eve in the only way I can - by bringing up ways to improve it via the forums.
Capire? I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Daedra Blue
Atomic Biohazard The Butterfly Effect Alliance
52
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Posted - 2013.07.09 11:47:00 -
[46] - Quote
Klandi wrote:Amnesiaa Haze wrote:You're telling CCP to make the same mistake all the other big MMO's which have been&gone made... They reach a point of sustained success.. and then they go and change everything... try fix what isn't broken, and then they die. Why would you want to change the thing which made you a success in the first place? LEAVE, EVE, ALONE.
I will deal with this first Amnesiaa Haze wrote: try fix what isn't broken . Change "breaks" most things. Life is not static and things evolve into better more streamlined ways of living. The steam age was not "broken" , the first Mini Cooper was not "broken" but they had to evolve and if they don't then they become "broken". If what we understand from the previous Technical Producer, the code methodology that allows the game to evolve, is so dysfunctional now that changing parts would cause unforeseeable problems and would take up more time and money to fix. This thing I am talking about is the POS in particular. One of the reasons I dislike doing pos stuff is the antiquated methods used to both assemble the thing into a space factory and the rights issues. If you have ever tried to do any of the above you would wonder at the incompetency. It needs to be fixed because this is broken and they (CCP) are saying they cannot - citing code issues. I want to play and enjoy this game as much as you - but I want to also contribute to the improvement of Eve in the only way I can - by bringing up ways to improve it via the forums. Capire?
I totally agree with you and have been asking for these POS fixes for like ever, everyone who ever touched a POS knows what a dog pile it is.
BUT!
We don't really care about this:
Klandi wrote: they (CCP) are saying they cannot - citing code issues
Because if they want a JITA RIOT II RELOADED!! THEY WILL GET IT WITH A VENGEANCE!!
Also the CSM will be chopping balls off people if POS don't get revamped eventually. |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
126
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Posted - 2013.07.10 12:08:00 -
[47] - Quote
Agree completely Daedra What I understand though is that the fixes (even if they come in the form of a re-write) will not be quick - so it might be a waste of time to OMFGWTF rage in Jita I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Andrea Griffin
541
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Posted - 2013.07.10 14:27:00 -
[48] - Quote
I spend a lot of my time working on a large code base that supports web portals for most major ISPs in America. We have a LOT of ancient code sitting around. It's badly written, working with it is clunky, but we know that it works. When you're working with software, having a chunk of reliable code that you can trust - despite its faults - is a godsend.
Writing code from scratch sounds nice, but when you do this you instantly lose all of the testing, debugging, and production-time the old code had. You have to spend all that time re-testing, re-debugging, re-deploying, dealing with side effects and odd artifacts, etc., etc.
From a hobby perspective, that's fine. From a business perspective, well, time is money.
Joel on Software looks at this issue in depth. It's a great read. CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
397
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Posted - 2013.07.10 14:41:00 -
[49] - Quote
Daedra Blue wrote:Because if they want a JITA RIOT II RELOADED!! THEY WILL GET IT WITH A VENGEANCE!!
Also the CSM will be chopping balls off people if POS don't get revamped eventually.
Can riot. Can DDoS. Can do all that stuff, but if it effects code so deeply embedded in the game, to touch it could bring the entire game down.
It's like Blizzard not touching the 1st 16 slot bag for players in WoW. They flat out said it'll cause more trouble if they messed with it, and haven't changed it...and they changed the entire world; reinvented classes; and changed fight mechanics completely since WotLK. Tens of millions of dollars worth of code changes...but they won't touch a single 16 slot bag, because what it can break.
The POS code is like that 16 slot bag. To fix it, would mean to risk the game being broken. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Solaris Ecladia
High Flyers Ex Cinere Scriptor
125
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Posted - 2013.07.10 14:59:00 -
[50] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Daedra Blue wrote:Because if they want a JITA RIOT II RELOADED!! THEY WILL GET IT WITH A VENGEANCE!!
Also the CSM will be chopping balls off people if POS don't get revamped eventually. Can riot. Can DDoS. Can do all that stuff, but if it effects code so deeply embedded in the game, to touch it could bring the entire game down. It's like Blizzard not touching the 1st 16 slot bag for players in WoW. They flat out said it'll cause more trouble if they messed with it, and haven't changed it...and they changed the entire world; reinvented classes; and changed fight mechanics completely since WotLK. Tens of millions of dollars worth of code changes...but they won't touch a single 16 slot bag, because what it can break. The POS code is like that 16 slot bag. To fix it, would mean to risk the game being broken.
i have zero idea what you said there |
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Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
397
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Posted - 2013.07.10 15:04:00 -
[51] - Quote
Solaris Ecladia wrote: i have zero idea what you said there
I can see why...
Solaris Ecladia wrote: Well turns out he wasnt very smart and accepted it. So now I found myself facing a question of morality. He had a cargohold full of BPOs and ore which he jetcanned. so I could have picked them up and ****** off but I ended up killing him and podding him. Did I make the right call?
"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Vorll Minaaran
Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere
11
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Posted - 2013.07.10 15:29:00 -
[52] - Quote
Klandi wrote:... What I understand though is that the fixes (even if they come in the form of a re-write) will not be quick...
Seems you accept the fact that recoding one feature (POS) could takes a lot of time, and you want CCP to rewirte entire EVE codebase with full of features in one go?
Your logic seems a bit flawed to me.
They rewriting parts of the old code as they find them blocking other improvements/new features (like they did with Crimewatch). POS system could be one of the oldest, most complicated legacy code and affects tens of thousands players. They couldn't and wouldn't risk any mistake, so it will take long time to recode. |
AnikoDan
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2013.07.10 17:25:00 -
[53] - Quote
Would love to be able to fly my Eve ship :( maybe in eve 20.0 |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
126
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Posted - 2013.07.10 17:38:00 -
[54] - Quote
OK Andrea You are the type of person whose reply I value here, because you say that you live the job and there is nothing to say you don't, so I believe you do. I read Joel on software and revised the language in the OP. I know the code does not get old, or cracked and I hear what the guy means when he says that the company commits harikari when they re-write from scratch - BUT....
There is code in Eve that is a nightmare to tamper with. There also comes a time (Voril) when you look at the problem and say - enough, lets start again. The costs is justified because the time you stop firefighting and re-apply to starting again is worth it.
Also as I stated in the OP (now underlined) you would not have to start from scratch as you could re-use the code (it doesn't grow old) but you could take the time to attempt to fix the issues that will make fixing the POS a reality.
I wish I knew more about this so I could explain myself clearer but hopefully I have done enough.
I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Andrea Griffin
543
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Posted - 2013.07.10 19:33:00 -
[55] - Quote
Klandi wrote:There is code in Eve that is a nightmare to tamper with. There also comes a time (Voril) when you look at the problem and say - enough, lets start again. The costs is justified because the time you stop firefighting and re-apply to starting again is worth it. It is true that in some circumstances there is a benefit to ripping out a chunk of the system. Depending on how the original chunk was written it can be very time consuming and risky. It is my understanding (from past CCP dev posts) that the POS code is in this state right now:
1. The POS code is in a single large file; 2. Nobody really understands how it all works; 3. Everyone is afraid to touch it; 4. The risk involved in changing the current code is very high. 5. Rumors of Cthulhu living there have been mentioned.
Basically, "Here Be Dragons."
Changing the code just for the sake of changing the code isn't worth the effort. If it works adequately in its current state there's no need to touch it. As far as I know there hasn't been any fire fighting with the POS system (the last change was the fuel block change a while back - a relatively "minor" tweak, if there be such a thing). So it's probably in that state of "it works right now, don't touch it, don't even breathe on it."
Assuming you want to make updates to the POS part of the code base (adding new features, for example) careful refactoring would be beneficial. if I remember correctly that is slated to happen - but only when CCP decides to revamp the POS system. Until they want to make substantial changes, their development time is better spent fixing existing bugs and implementing planned features.
It's really a case of, "What do you gain by spending time on X." Yes, refactoring the POS code would make POS development easier, but there's very little to gain from all that work until they expect to make real changes to the POS system as a whole. That time could be better spent on features for the current expansion (unless, of course, the next expansion is all about POS stuff).
The current mess, even though it is a mess, "works" for a satisfactory level of "works".
As far as entire code bases go, it's better to take what you have and iterate on it until it is in a good working state. Starting from scratch sounds like a good idea - we can all start with a nice clean architecture, we can use well defined design patterns, etc., etc., but then you have to suffer through all of the little artifacts along the way all over again.
It ends up being more time and resource consuming than simply massaging the existing monster into something reasonable. By the time you're finished re-writing from scratch and borrowing bits and pieces from the old system, you could have refactored the original code base and made improvements along the way.
It's very counter intuitive but in my experience that has always been the case.
In any case, CCP has some incredibly bright people working on the code. I don't say that lightly: Name me one other game in the world that operates on the scale that Eve does. There's an incredible amount of room for error in such a large game. I have full faith that they are making the best technical decisions for the company at the time they make those decisions.
Yup, there is the occasional SNAFU, but those have become more and more rare as CCP has matured as a company. They've had the wisdom to look at what they can do better, then they've gone ahead and done it. Every year they keep improving things. I don't know how long you've been here with Eve, but we get small, incremental patches on a regular basis now. I remember expansion patches that have had days of downtime for deployment, then had to be rolled back, then released again, then pulled back, then...
These days, we're in good hands. : >
Hope that helps! CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
399
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Posted - 2013.07.10 20:25:00 -
[56] - Quote
Klandi wrote:Also as I stated in the OP (now underlined) you would not have to start from scratch as you could re-use the code (it doesn't grow old) but you could take the time to attempt to fix the issues that will make fixing the POS a reality.
I wish I knew more about this so I could explain myself clearer but hopefully I have done enough.
Well some code doesn't grow old (or more correctly, elegant -- BASIC, Fortran and Pascal come to mind here), but C and C++ has been around for decades now, and will be around for decades longer (and no Java wasn't the answer!). As much as programmers are very Libertarian in their views, they are starchily conservative with programming languages they use. Medicine evolves faster. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Andrea Griffin
543
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Posted - 2013.07.10 20:37:00 -
[57] - Quote
Don't forget Python! CCP uses a TON of Python. : > CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
126
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Posted - 2013.07.11 14:00:00 -
[58] - Quote
And this is the thing that intrigues me - Python (as an OOP) lends itself to the type of coding that really should not allow these issues to crop up - so the continuing question is - has python evolved and is the version used 10yrs ago compatible with what is currently used ? I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
409
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Posted - 2013.07.11 14:04:00 -
[59] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:Don't forget Python! CCP uses a TON of Python. : >
Python, the scripting language that starts it all. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
409
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Posted - 2013.07.11 14:47:00 -
[60] - Quote
Klandi wrote:And this is the thing that intrigues me - Python (as an OOP) lends itself to the type of coding that really should not allow these issues to crop up - so the continuing question is - has python evolved and is the version used 10yrs ago compatible with what is currently used ?
Python is the first "language" a programmer will learn if progressing to C++ due to it's garbage collecting ability (it teaches proper coding practices. It forces a stop if it discovers an error).
Just like C Python 5+ years ago can still be used, even if the coding practices change or the language changes. C and C++ are very similar but C++ is an evolved language with it's own practices. A C programmer can understand C++ and vice versa, but how they code is different (which causes problems).
But Python is a scripting language and a layer above C and C++. It's use is for features that doesn't need low level programming (which C++ is used for. Only Assembly is lower, and that's direct byte to byte "talk" with hardware. It's not much used, some programs like the NOD antivirus is written in Assembly for fast scanning [one of the fastest languages], but it's not as robust as C++ for actually doing things that need to be done).
It's like layers of a cake. C++ is the cake, Python is the icing on top. Python won't catch the errors in C++ itself, it will stop if a function doesn't make it work though. Python has it's place especially for the ease of adding features without touching the engine itself, but it's a top layer scripting language (in the case here). If the engine is where the error comes from, thats when it becomes a headache to fix. And touching that is a major project -- and in gaming it's not done unless it's funded (usually done when making new expansions, if done at all). "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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