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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1614
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 10:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Original version is here: https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/2013/07/06/a-sidegrade-to-cloaking/
the tl:dr version: You can scan down someone with a cloak with combat probes. This will drop you on the same grid, but not right on top of them. You can get a distance to someone cloaked on grid with dscan. It's not entirely accurate, but with time, you can find them. More people makes this easier (triangulation ftw). Requires RL skill.
To counter this, you can shut down your warp core. This makes you (even without a cloak), unable to be scanned down. It also drops you off local. You cannot move while your core is down. Shutting down your core takes a short time to do. 30 seconds or so (same time as the safe log off timer)
Restarting your warp core puts you back on local. It takes minutes to come back online. You cannot move until it's fully online. All other actions are possible.
Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult
502
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 10:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
No for all the reasons posted in all the other "nerf cloaks because I'm afwaid" threads. |
HiddenPorpoise
BG-1 The Craniac
10
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Posted - 2013.07.08 11:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Isn't the thing about the lore on cores that they explode when you cut the power? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1614
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Posted - 2013.07.08 11:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Just to go into a little detail on the thought behind this:
AFK cloaking is bad gameplay. It should never be a viable tactic to turn on your cloak, then walk away for hours at a time.
The reasons it's a viable tactic are:
1: Cynos. Sure, there's one person in system. But that person can /rapidly/ become an entire fleet. 2: No status change whether they're there or not.
That second one is the core of it.
You have nothing to fear from someone who isn't there. But you have no way of knowing, at any point in time, if they are there or not. They could be AFK for 8 hours. They could come back 30 minutes and hot drop you.
You can't bait someone who's not there. But did they not take the bait because they weren't there, or because they got back /just/ after you finished?
HiddenPorpoise wrote: Isn't the thing about the lore on cores that they explode when you cut the power?
Really? I must have missed that one. Of course, Lore can be updated. Someone makes a breakthrough for safe shut downs.Or damping. It's far from an insurmountable issue.
Tchulen wrote: That said, turning on and off warp core could be interesting but only if it isn't able to be combined with being cloaked.
I had been thinking it could be combined, so it'd still be possible to set up an ambush. Get to an anomaly, stay cloaked, shut down your core. You can't be found unless you're really unlucky. People turn up, people get hotdropped Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1463
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 11:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
You broke biombers, blockade runners, recons, scouts etc etc etc etc, made gatecamps nigh impossible to clear, and you STILL did nothing to nerf AFK docking/POSing.
If you can find and kill cloaked ships, then they need to be able to find and kill everyone in your stations or POS. It's only fair. |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult
502
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 12:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:AFK cloaking is bad gameplay. It should never be a viable tactic to turn on your cloak, then walk away for hours at a time. Why? Whilst I don't do this myself I can see reasons why it is a perfectly valid tactic.
Steve Ronuken wrote:The reasons it's a viable tactic are:
1: Cynos. Sure, there's one person in system. But that person can /rapidly/ become an entire fleet. 2: No status change whether they're there or not.
That second one is the core of it.
You have nothing to fear from someone who isn't there. But you have no way of knowing, at any point in time, if they are there or not. They could be AFK for 8 hours. They could come back 30 minutes and hot drop you.
You can't bait someone who's not there. But did they not take the bait because they weren't there, or because they got back /just/ after you finished? You might have something to fear from cloaked ships that might or might not be afk. I don't. I assume they're not afk and get on about my business.
You see, it's all in your head. You don't know whether they're active or not and that eats you up. Just assume they are and you'll be fine. Why nerf something that doesn't need nerfing? Why come up with a *solution* in the game for a *problem* which is entirely in your head? Wouldn't it be better to come up with a solution to the real problem, the problem of your fear, than to change the game? Just stop being afraid. Stop thinking that they might not be there and assume they are.
I'm really sorry to say this but why do you need CCP to do something about your inability to think around a problem? We all manage it fine. When you say you can't bait them, I do. I just bait them whilst simultaneously doing other things with my corp mates and that is where the problem lies. All the people I see complaining about afk cloakies appear incapable of playing the game in any other way than solo. If you play with other people you can always deal with cloaky campers. If they're afk you do what you were doing anyway. If they're not they might try to attack you and you attack them right back. You win some you lose some but if you get out of the mentality that you can only do anything when there is no one else in system you might actually get somewhere in the game.
Don't fly expensive ships. Fly as a group. Fit pvp modules. Do your ratting or your mining as you would normally do and as a group you can deal with things. If you fly inexpensive ships it's not that much of a pain if you get hotdropped by more than you can cope with.
You're not the only person to get camped by cloakies. Lots of people deal with it perfectly fine. Learn to yourself and you'll have a lot more fun. You might even have more self respect if you can lose the fear, too.
Tchulen wrote: That said, turning on and off warp core could be interesting but only if it isn't able to be combined with being cloaked.
I had been thinking it could be combined, so it'd still be possible to set up an ambush. Get to an anomaly, stay cloaked, shut down your core. You can't be found unless you're really unlucky. People turn up, people get hotdropped [/quote] So let me get this straight, you want to nerf cloaks so they can't *make* you afraid because you don't know whether they're there or not but you also want to make it so they can remove themselves from local at a location so you think they're not there, wait for an unsuspecting person and then light a cyno under their butt?
Is this a "stealth buff cov ops cloaky ambushes" thread? Or is it a "remove afk cloaking because I'm afraid" thread? Both? I'm confused! |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1614
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 12:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
It should probably be noted:
I spend most of my time in High and Low. And when in Low, I'm moving around. Cloaky campers make no difference to me.
They do get to other people though
This was me spitballing an option different for the others I've heard on the subject (timers, fuel, a button to randomly hit) Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1268
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 12:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
will shutting down your warp core prevent people from using corp/ship hangars? just curious
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
2000
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Posted - 2013.07.08 15:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Original version is here: https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/2013/07/06/a-sidegrade-to-cloaking/the tl:dr version: You can scan down someone with a cloak with combat probes. This will drop you on the same grid, but not right on top of them. You can get a distance to someone cloaked on grid with dscan. It's not entirely accurate, but with time, you can find them. More people makes this easier (triangulation ftw). Requires RL skill. To counter this, you can shut down your warp core. This makes you (even without a cloak), unable to be scanned down. It also drops you off local. You cannot move while your core is down. Shutting down your core takes a short time to do. 30 seconds or so (same time as the safe log off timer) Restarting your warp core puts you back on local. It takes minutes to come back online. You cannot move until it's fully online. All other actions are possible. No, because by creating any kind of limit to cloaking, without addressing it's impact on other parts of the game, you create an imbalance.
In Wormholes, where cloaking is often the norm, this would break major elements. In Null sec, where so-called AFK Cloaking is the only realistic counter to chat intel's warning ability, you hand PvE players an "I Win" button. One, I should point out, only null bears actually claim to want. Not all PvE players have been thrilled with how weak competition is in the supposedly hard core section.
Cloaking is not isolated, and is in a delicately interwoven relationship with intel gathering, since it is by obvious detail an attempt to avoid revealing intel by it's very nature. Due to Local Chat's obvious value in gathering intel, it is often pointed at in this context. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Katia Echerie
D4RK M00N RISIGN
0
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Posted - 2013.07.08 15:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
The only thing I think should be done to cloaking is that cloak modules should use cap. It should also be something that all covert ops cloak capable ships can keep cap stable at 85%+.
Now the only reason I would do that is because it adds a little bit of a drawback to when you use a cloak. Why? For the fun of it. |
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15119
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 16:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:It should probably be noted: I spend most of my time in High and Low. And when in Low, I'm moving around. Cloaky campers make no difference to me. They do get to other people though This was me spitballing an option different for the others I've heard on the subject (timers, fuel, a button to randomly hit) The reason AFKing has a poor affect in high and low, is due to how often neutrals are in and through those systems. This is also the case in many NPC systems. The same cannot be said for sov null.
The funny thing is you talk of AFK, but use active play as reason for this.
But let me ask you this. Whilst they are AFK and cloaked, which mechanic are they using to interact with you?
With the answer, why do you think more intel on top of this is balanced. After all you're not nerfing the cause here, only the effect.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Rengerel en Distel
1675
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 17:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
When someone can come up with a "solution" that doesn't break living in a wormhole, perhaps they can be taken more seriously. Or people can just get over the fact that there are sometimes other people in a zone with them. As has been said repeatedly, if there is one person in the zone keeping you from doing what you want to do, then bring friends. If they bring friends, you know they're not afk.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
162
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 18:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Remove local and you solve the AFK cloaking and effortless perfect intel at the same time. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
4934
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 22:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Relevant. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
203
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 02:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
FMS...not another one!
EDIT: In on a "Nerf Cloaking Thread" My Feature\Idea:-á Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2880
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 03:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:AFK cloaking is bad gameplay. It should never be a viable tactic to turn on your cloak, then walk away for hours at a time. Using Local as intel is bad gameplay. It should never be a viable tactic to immediately see a hostile enter system and dock-up/log-off for hours at a time until he/she leaves.
See what I did there?
Steve Ronuken wrote:1: Cynos. Sure, there's one person in system. But that person can /rapidly/ become an entire fleet. A cyno jammer denies the anyone the ability to use a regular cyno. Covert cynos can only be fitted to ships that...
- have no tank and can die to a single volley from a Thrasher. See: Stealth Bomber. - have a decloaking penalty that prevents them from locking on to anything for 5 to 7 seconds (7 to 10 seconds if you include lock time). See: covert-fit Tech 3s, Force Recon ships. - move slow under cloak (i.e. they won't be able to keep you with a kiting-sniper PvE setup). - can be jammed by a Griffin/Kitsune/Blackbird.
Steve Ronuken wrote:2: No status change whether they're there or not. Because everyone hides indefinitely as soon as the status of Local changes from "all friendly" to "one hostile."
Steve Ronuken wrote:You have nothing to fear from someone who isn't there. But you have no way of knowing, at any point in time, if they are there or not. They could be AFK for 8 hours. They could come back 30 minutes and hot drop you. Oh boo-hoo. High-sec miners deal with this kind of threat every day. They are called suicide gankers and you never know when one will drop in.
Instead of whining that there is a possible threat that you can't proactively get rid of, try to doing what high-sec miners do... make themselves unattractive targets!!
Mine in Procurers. Run complexes/anomalies/belts in cheaper, more PvP-centric ships. Team up with people. Basically live as if the enemy is always one system over. You ARE in null-sec after all.
Yes, yes... you ISK/hr goes down a bit... boo hoo. That's the price you pay for safety (the same price that everyone else does). What makes YOU so special that you shouldn't have to do this? Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Nariya Kentaya
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
650
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 04:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
You can nerf cloaks when you come up with an idea that meets these requirements:
1) Does not break wormhole space 2) addresses the omnipotent intel tool that is local, and the absolute gank defense it provides (unless you are completely AFK) 3) provide some way for ships inside of a POS or docked in station to be attacked and destroyed, because hey, its NULL why should you be allowed a place of perfect immunity in space and a cloaker not?
On this topic though, seriously? its ONE SHIP, that itself cannot fight ANYTHING WITH A GUN, evena t a frigate level, withoutt aking significant damage or dying. if you are with a buddy, he is VERY UNLIKELY to attack.
and lets assume he wants to cyno in a fleet, well then, you can just lok at your conveniently placed LOCAL to see the spike and be aligning or getting out of there fairly quickly.
but in all honesty, if you feel you are under such a threat, do waht YOUR SUPPOSED TO DO, get FRIENDS, fly in FLEETS, and have A DEFENSIVE FORCE AT LEAST ON CALL IN A NEARBY SYSTEM.
i swear, i lived in wormholes over a year, never ahd problems with cloakies, went out and did my PI like everyone else even when i knew full well there was someone in system. i am now in null and i cannot believe how many people i haev met who are "oh so scurred of big bad cloaker", its sad. but hey, it leaves alot of relic/data sites for me and me alone since everyone else is too scared to be in system/space with a neut/red.
also, restarting warp cores is a no-no, turning them off causes a cataclysmic explosion akin to something between a Bomb adn an old AOE DD.
(DEAR LORD CCP, LET US TURN OFF OUR CORES MID-COMBAT, i wanna see blobs burn because i took the keys out of my Stealth Bomber) |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
1170
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 05:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
No |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
2009
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 13:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Oh boo-hoo. High-sec miners deal with this kind of threat every day. They are called suicide gankers and you never know when one will drop in.
Instead of whining that there is a possible threat that you can't proactively get rid of, try to doing what high-sec miners do... make themselves unattractive targets!!
Mine in Procurers. Run complexes/anomalies/belts in cheaper, more PvP-centric ships. Team up with people. Basically live as if the enemy is always one system over. You ARE in null-sec after all.
Yes, yes... you ISK/hr goes down a bit... boo hoo. That's the price you pay for safety (the same price that everyone else does). What makes YOU so special that you shouldn't have to do this? A part of me is crying that you have used logic to point out how high sec is often more dangerous than null sec.
It all is perfectly accurate, which is the sad part.
True, I make the same argument quite often, but I feel saddened when I do it too...
Oh, you can also mine in the new venture, with a properly skilled character you can get over 800 ore per minute, quite comparable to exhumers considering the risk profile! (built in warp strength, use the Tech 2 mining lasers and mining drone, fit creatively!) Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 14:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
It's amazing to me how many nullbears wish eve was single-player instead of a sandbox. |
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