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Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
12
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Posted - 2013.07.08 15:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Recently I've been losing battles to enemy tech 1 ships but with tech 2 guns (often faction ammo). While I know I'm probadly doomed in winning such fights I'm still going to ask if its possible to beat these more powerful targets with weaker weapons?
This trend is what made me give up FW, it just makes it impossible to find a fight you can have any real chance in. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
3021
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Posted - 2013.07.08 15:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Recently I've been losing battles to enemy tech 1 ships but with tech 2 guns (often faction ammo). While I know I'm probadly doomed in winning such fights I'm still going to ask if its possible to beat these more powerful targets with weaker weapons?
This trend is what made me give up FW, it just makes it impossible to find a fight you can have any real chance in.
The best gun in the world is useless to someone who you just poked in the eyes.
So perhaps you should consider EWAR, or not exchanging direct gunfire (such as drones, smart bombs, etc).
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Rico Minali
The Straw Men
1298
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Posted - 2013.07.08 15:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Use meta 4 tech 1 guns with faction ammo. Make sure you are keeping range properly and dont get messed up with transversal velocity. Make your enemy fight on your terms. For instance, if you are using blasters, you need to be in punching distance from your target, get them webbed and keep transversal to a minimum. Other than that it comes down to rigs, drugs and relevant skills. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
2825
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Posted - 2013.07.08 15:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bring more guns.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy Caldari State
230
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Posted - 2013.07.08 16:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think this will always be situational. If they are in a bigger gun slower ship corkscrew to close the gap...also duel fit AB MWD will help as AB does not increase sig radius like MWD. Orbit them close and they should not be able to hit you.
If you can kite em, and snipe em. The key is to know what you can do with your fit you are flying and be able to recognize what your enemy may have. Avoid fights your not fit for and engage those that you are. |
Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
12
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Posted - 2013.07.08 16:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote:Recently I've been losing battles to enemy tech 1 ships but with tech 2 guns (often faction ammo). While I know I'm probadly doomed in winning such fights I'm still going to ask if its possible to beat these more powerful targets with weaker weapons?
This trend is what made me give up FW, it just makes it impossible to find a fight you can have any real chance in. The best gun in the world is useless to someone who you just poked in the eyes. So perhaps you should consider EWAR, or not exchanging direct gunfire (such as drones, smart bombs, etc).
I'm Caldari and so all our combat friagtes don't have drone capacity. Ewar fair might stop them shooting but it also takes up resources for the guns to kill them with.
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Haramir Haleths
Nutella Bande
13
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Posted - 2013.07.08 16:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
T2 guns are not better then T1 Meta 4 guns. They are cheaper and you can use more specialized ammo. And mostly its not the weapon who wins the fight. Its your competence and tactics.
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Varesk
Origin. Black Legion.
433
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Posted - 2013.07.08 16:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Recently I've been losing battles to enemy tech 1 ships but with tech 2 guns (often faction ammo). While I know I'm probadly doomed in winning such fights I'm still going to ask if its possible to beat these more powerful targets with weaker weapons?
This trend is what made me give up FW, it just makes it impossible to find a fight you can have any real chance in.
you can use faction ammo in t1 guns.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
3021
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Posted - 2013.07.08 16:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote:Recently I've been losing battles to enemy tech 1 ships but with tech 2 guns (often faction ammo). While I know I'm probadly doomed in winning such fights I'm still going to ask if its possible to beat these more powerful targets with weaker weapons?
This trend is what made me give up FW, it just makes it impossible to find a fight you can have any real chance in. The best gun in the world is useless to someone who you just poked in the eyes. So perhaps you should consider EWAR, or not exchanging direct gunfire (such as drones, smart bombs, etc). I'm Caldari and so all our combat friagtes don't have drone capacity. Ewar fair might stop them shooting but it also takes up resources for the guns to kill them with. And yes I'm solo PvPing tell me me to join a gang please. Doc Fury wrote:Bring more guns. we're talking about frigates here and I'm unwilling to risk my cruiser with only 50m ISK in my wallet.
Ah. Keep flying cheap and keep working at it. BTW some of the other advice in this thread is pretty good too. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
2831
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Posted - 2013.07.08 16:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Doc Fury wrote:Bring more guns. we're talking about frigates here and I'm unwilling to risk my cruiser with only 50m ISK in my wallet.
Bring friends (with more guns).
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
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Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
245
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Posted - 2013.07.08 16:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
If you are flying identical fits, with identical SP levels in all relevant skills, and the only difference is that one fit is Tech 1 Meta 0 and the other is Tech 2, the only variable left is player skill. However, the Tech 2 fit is going to do double the damage at twice the range, and it also likely will have 1/3 more EHP and will be able to dictate range on you.
So if the guy in the Tech 2 fit is any good, then he can simply pick a range at which he hits you hard and you hit him little or not at all, and since he has more EHP than you to start with, the fight is over before it started, unless he is very bad at EvE, or just makes a lot of stupid mistakes. It will take quite a bit of player skill to close that gear gap, but crappy players in expensive kit are not exactly hard to find in this game. A good eye for careful target selection can go a long way, but it also will mean you run a lot more often than you fight.
Keep in mind, he also may have links on his side, which gives him a further edge. Of course, you can bring that same edge, if you have it. If you put a link supported T1M0 fit up against a straight Tech 2 fit without links, then the gap gets somewhat smaller and easier to close.
Or, as noted, bring a whole bunch of your noobfit friends along. Make that 1v1 into a 1v3 or 1v5, and the odds start to tip in your favor, assuming all of your 3 or 5 rememberd to load up on clue before undocking. Then maybe you only need the other guy to make one mistake instead of a whole slew of them, and that one mistake could be as simple as choosing to engage. |
Zimmy Zeta
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
24708
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Posted - 2013.07.08 16:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote:Recently I've been losing battles to enemy tech 1 ships but with tech 2 guns (often faction ammo). While I know I'm probadly doomed in winning such fights I'm still going to ask if its possible to beat these more powerful targets with weaker weapons?
This trend is what made me give up FW, it just makes it impossible to find a fight you can have any real chance in. The best gun in the world is useless to someone who you just poked in the eyes. So perhaps you should consider EWAR, or not exchanging direct gunfire (such as drones, smart bombs, etc). I'm Caldari and so all our combat friagtes don't have drone capacity. Ewar fair might stop them shooting but it also takes up resources for the guns to kill them with. And yes I'm solo PvPing tell me me to join a gang please. Doc Fury wrote:Bring more guns. we're talking about frigates here and I'm unwilling to risk my cruiser with only 50m ISK in my wallet.
As a Caldari, you could use missiles to either kite the enemy or speedtank without screwing your own tracking. The Condor is great ship for that, but Kestrels can also become very dangerous frigates. T2 enemy guns cannot hurt you if you either stay out of range or orbit so fast that it becomes almost impossible to track you.
Just think of how bad an average post by me is, and then realize half of them are even worse |
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
786
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Posted - 2013.07.08 16:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Bring more guns.
^^^
Go with the Code. www.minerbumping.com |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
246
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Posted - 2013.07.08 16:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
If you you're finding FW frustrating because you just want more "gudfites" at more or less equal (low) levels of SP, kit, and player skill, then try joining RvB for a while. That way you can have some fun while you're gaining the SP needed to close the gear gap in the wild. |
Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
12
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Posted - 2013.07.08 16:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zimmy Zeta wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote:Recently I've been losing battles to enemy tech 1 ships but with tech 2 guns (often faction ammo). While I know I'm probadly doomed in winning such fights I'm still going to ask if its possible to beat these more powerful targets with weaker weapons?
This trend is what made me give up FW, it just makes it impossible to find a fight you can have any real chance in. The best gun in the world is useless to someone who you just poked in the eyes. So perhaps you should consider EWAR, or not exchanging direct gunfire (such as drones, smart bombs, etc). I'm Caldari and so all our combat friagtes don't have drone capacity. Ewar fair might stop them shooting but it also takes up resources for the guns to kill them with. And yes I'm solo PvPing tell me me to join a gang please. Doc Fury wrote:Bring more guns. we're talking about frigates here and I'm unwilling to risk my cruiser with only 50m ISK in my wallet. As a Caldari, you could use missiles to either kite the enemy or speedtank without screwing your own tracking. The Condor is great ship for that, but Kestrels can also become very dangerous frigates. T2 enemy guns cannot hurt you if you either stay out of range or orbit so fast that it becomes almost impossible to track you.
A long list of destroyed Kestrels seem to suggest that that is not the case
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=1675337&view=losses&m=6&y=2013
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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
167
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Posted - 2013.07.08 16:43:00 -
[16] - Quote
So, this whole "Tech2 is suddenly unfair to us noobs" bull**** must be the new "hot topic", eh?
Try doing what everyone else is doing...training. That seems to work well enough. |
Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
12
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 16:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sobaan Tali wrote:So, this whole "Tech2 is suddenly unfair to us noobs" bull**** must be the new "hot topic", eh?
Try doing what everyone else is doing...training. That seems to work well enough.
I am but half the time it isn't doing any good. I wasn't using rigs so I trained rigs after suggestions on the forum. I lasted 10 seconds more. I train a bit more, my frigate and pod is blown to bits in a gate camp by battlecruisers. I complain about it on the forum. People say I shouldn't play this game. I give up in frustration and go back to mining to rebuild my lost founds.
I try to PvP again and again and each time I just die instantly. |
Leigh Akiga
State War Academy Caldari State
20
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Posted - 2013.07.08 16:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Recently I've been losing battles to enemy tech 1 ships but with tech 2 guns (often faction ammo). While I know I'm probadly doomed in winning such fights I'm still going to ask if its possible to beat these more powerful targets with weaker weapons?
This trend is what made me give up FW, it just makes it impossible to find a fight you can have any real chance in.
Optimal, falloff and tracking |
Eurydia Vespasian
Nova Insula Mining and Industrial
4016
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Posted - 2013.07.08 17:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:So, this whole "Tech2 is suddenly unfair to us noobs" bull**** must be the new "hot topic", eh?
Try doing what everyone else is doing...training. That seems to work well enough. I am but half the time it isn't doing any good. I wasn't using rigs so I trained rigs after suggestions on the forum. I lasted 10 seconds more. I train a bit more, my frigate and pod is blown to bits in a gate camp by battlecruisers. I complain about it on the forum. People say I shouldn't play this game. I give up in frustration and go back to mining to rebuild my lost founds. I try to PvP again and again and each time I just die instantly.
your time will come. suffering now is only the flame that will temper your future steel.
either that...
or you will just always be bad. such is the way of eve.
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Icarus Able
Traverse Holdings
35
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Posted - 2013.07.08 17:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:So, this whole "Tech2 is suddenly unfair to us noobs" bull**** must be the new "hot topic", eh?
Try doing what everyone else is doing...training. That seems to work well enough. I am but half the time it isn't doing any good. I wasn't using rigs so I trained rigs after suggestions on the forum. I lasted 10 seconds more. I train a bit more, my frigate and pod is blown to bits in a gate camp by battlecruisers. I complain about it on the forum. People say I shouldn't play this game. I give up in frustration and go back to mining to rebuild my lost founds. I try to PvP again and again and each time I just die instantly.
When you get killed by someone ask for their fit, that way you can learn what beat you. Just keep experimenting, while training. T2 guns arent a long train at all for frigates. |
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PopeUrban
El Expedicion
14
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Posted - 2013.07.08 17:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Sobaan Tali wrote:So, this whole "Tech2 is suddenly unfair to us noobs" bull**** must be the new "hot topic", eh?
Try doing what everyone else is doing...training. That seems to work well enough. I am but half the time it isn't doing any good. I wasn't using rigs so I trained rigs after suggestions on the forum. I lasted 10 seconds more. I train a bit more, my frigate and pod is blown to bits in a gate camp by battlecruisers. I complain about it on the forum. People say I shouldn't play this game. I give up in frustration and go back to mining to rebuild my lost founds. I try to PvP again and again and each time I just die instantly.
I know you don't want to hear this, but Faction warfare is a team sport. Hence the term faction warfare. In addition, there's very much a rock to every sort of scissors in EVE. What separates the winners from the losers in most 1v1 engagements doesn't usually come down to equipment or SP, but operational knowledge of your ability to win. Knowing when you have a chance and when you don't is a thing you can only pick up with experience.
Fitting IS a PvP skill. |
Andrea Griffin
534
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 18:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
I'd like to remind you that a lot of us who have been involved in PvP for a long time used to be in your situation. We were starting to get fights and we were losing. A lot.
That's normal. Some are butter than others when starting out, but we all started out by losing a lot of ships.
T2 guns to have an advantage: The specialization skills give a 2% damage increase per level of said skill, so even with all things being equal, a fully skilled pilot may be doing up to 10% more damage than you with the same ammo.
However, most fights are won outside of that 10% margin. Most fights are won before one side opens fire.
Try doing this for a while: Read, read, read, read about every frigate and destroyer. Know what they are capable of, what they are not capable of, and common PvP fits. Not just the ships YOU fly, but every ship you're likely to see (and then some).
Now that you have a conceptual knowledge of strengths and weaknesses, you need to dictate the terms of the fight. Start the fight in a position that is advantageous to you, but disadvantageous to your opponent.
Caldari ships use hybrids and missiles, which gives you a really good mix of close combat and long range combat capabilities depending on what you want to do. Make use of that. Try some in your face blaster merlins. Try some railguns. Try light missiles, rockets. Try crazy things that everyone says won't work because, quite frankly, why not? It's just space pixels.
Solo combat is hard. It's really hard. On top of being new, you have zero backup. Then, you also have to deal with people who have off grid boosters, giving them a further edge in combat.
It takes time, but keep working at it. Those first few kills will be the hardest ones to get, but they will be the sweetest. True Solo PvP is the hardest way of life in Eve but, in my opinion, the most rewarding.
I'll make a deal with you: I'll supply you with 10 non-faction frigates of your choice if you promise to send me what you've learned from each of your fights. Do that and I'll give you another 10. I might even throw in a special toy or two from time to time. CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
963
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Posted - 2013.07.08 18:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote:Recently I've been losing battles to enemy tech 1 ships but with tech 2 guns (often faction ammo). While I know I'm probadly doomed in winning such fights I'm still going to ask if its possible to beat these more powerful targets with weaker weapons?
This trend is what made me give up FW, it just makes it impossible to find a fight you can have any real chance in. The best gun in the world is useless to someone who you just poked in the eyes. So perhaps you should consider EWAR, or not exchanging direct gunfire (such as drones, smart bombs, etc). I'm Caldari and so all our combat friagtes don't have drone capacity. Ewar fair might stop them shooting but it also takes up resources for the guns to kill them with. And yes I'm solo PvPing tell me me to join a gang please. Doc Fury wrote:Bring more guns. we're talking about frigates here and I'm unwilling to risk my cruiser with only 50m ISK in my wallet. easy.
[Griffin, Solo Peter Griffin] Signal Distortion Amplifier II Ballistic Control System II
1MN Afterburner II Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype Engine Enervator Enfeebling Phase Inversion ECM I Enfeebling Phase Inversion ECM I
Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Mjolnir Rocket
Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I Small Particle Dispersion Augmentor I [empty rig slot]
Hobgoblin II x1
works perfectly fine with t1 rockets
you can even take a shot at 1v2s as long as you have the right ECM types - just stay away from anything t2 and from drone boats.
you are generally fine going into a 1v1 with one correct and one mismatched ECM module (I would usually roam with Minmatar/Gallente or Minmatar/Caldari when using this fitting) but if possible identify your target from a few AU away, dock up, swap ECM modules to match your target, undock and go for it.
(the redocking part makes this fitting even more awesome when you are a pirate and can dock everywhere)
some killmails to show it works:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15393117 http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15385049 http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15388115 |
The VC's
Spack Force 5
147
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 18:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Op, spend a bit more on your mods and stop fitting meta zero mods. T1 is anything up to meta 4. Meta 3 are way better than the basic junk you are fitting atm and still cheap. T2 guns and launchers are more about giving access to different ammo types. This is more important with autocannons, lasers and to a certain extent blasters. All others work very well as T1, especially launchers, railguns and artillery. They are easier to fit too. I hardly ever use T2 railguns now.
Also, don't get yourself bogged down with 'races'. Pick a weapon system, pick a shp class, skill for it.
Ed. If that is your only killboard, you have had a total of eleven fights. Seriously dude, that is nothing, it seems like you are not even trying. Get more practice, die lots, the die less. One in five people are Chinese. There are five people in my family, so one must be Chinese. It's either my mum, my dad, my older brother Colin or my younger brother Ho-Cha-Chu. But I think it's Colin |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
235
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Posted - 2013.07.08 18:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Recently I've been losing battles to enemy tech 1 ships but with tech 2 guns (often faction ammo). While I know I'm probadly doomed in winning such fights I'm still going to ask if its possible to beat these more powerful targets with weaker weapons?
This trend is what made me give up FW, it just makes it impossible to find a fight you can have any real chance in.
You again?
At least revive your old thread, it is the continuation of that discussion, after all. |
Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
12
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 18:43:00 -
[26] - Quote
The VC's wrote:Op, spend a bit more on your mods and stop fitting meta zero mods. T1 is anything up to meta 4. Meta 3 are way better than the basic junk you are fitting atm and still cheap. T2 guns and launchers are more about giving access to different ammo types. This is more important with autocannons, lasers and to a certain extent blasters. All others work very well as T1, especially launchers, railguns and artillery. They are easier to fit too. I hardly ever use T2 railguns now.
Also, don't get yourself bogged down with 'races'. Pick a weapon system, pick a shp class, skill for it.
Ed. If that is your only killboard, you have had a total of eleven fights. Seriously dude, that is nothing, it seems like you are not even trying. Get more practice, die lots, the die less.
I'l caldari so we're all about missiles and shields so thats not really an issue I have only one real route
and about the killboard really? From the kills I look up on Eve kill everyone else does so much better when they start |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
339
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 19:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
classic eve pvp approach
Doc Fury wrote:Bring more guns.
New inventory: Getting better since version 1.2, but what about back and forward buttons? |
Proletariat Tingtango
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
441
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 19:25:00 -
[28] - Quote
jesus christ |
Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
12
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Posted - 2013.07.08 19:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:jesus christ
do you have any other statements or advice beyond that? |
Andrea Griffin
535
|
Posted - 2013.07.08 19:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:I'l caldari so we're all about missiles and shields so thats not really an issue I have only one real route Caldari is missiles and hybrids. Many of their most effective ships are fit with blasters. The Merlin is a great example of this at the frigate level.
If you're focusing on missiles though, remain aware that range doesn't mean anything to you as long as you can hit the target. What matters is their speed and their signature radius. Using small weapons (rockets, light missiles) you really just need to worry about speed.
This is the opposite of guns and their combination of optimal and falloff ranges. Once you're outside of their optimal and into falloff, they will apply less and less damage. They also have to worry about tracking - if you can get "under their guns" and orbit them faster than they can track, they will have troubles applying damage.
That is one of the strengths of missiles - they allow you to fight anywhere in their range and you can apply damage. You just need to care about your target's speed (and signature radius to a degree).
So, dictate the range of the engagement. If they have short range weapons, start fighting them at the edge of scram/web range. Stay there as long as you can in their falloff. If they have long range weapons, get in close and orbit them as fast as you can. Outrun their tracking to reduce damage while you keep lobbing missiles.
Mixing in some EWar can really help you out here, too. You don't HAVE to shield tank your ships even if they're Caldari. As an example you can fit a speed mod, scram, web, and TD in the mid slots of a Merlin and dump an armor plate in the low for a buffer. It's not traditional, it's uncouth, some will call it heresy, but it can be done. The griffin fit posted above will give pilots the shakes if you can catch them with it. CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
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