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Tachibane Kanade
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.07.10 12:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello,
I am very new to this game, and I hope my suggestion wouldn't hurt alot of player feelings or anything. But its my own opinion as a new player. But I think the current cloaking design in EVE-Online is very flawned and unfair and I think it should be changed to make it more 'fair' and exciting for both sides.
Right now, as can be demonstrated by Mad Ani's stream... And after reading many topics about cloaking and ability to decloak in general. I think its generally accepted by all EVE Players that its almost impossible to decloak a ship if the cloaked player knows what he is doing. I think this is really stupid, why can't players chase out a cloaky ship in their system who is just idling or AFKing?
I suggest adding a ship-module that has the ability to scan down cloaky ships, and when successfully scanned down the ability to shutdown their cloaking device while being 'locked' down. The decloaked ship should go somewhere else to avoid getting blown up. After warping off he should be able to cloak again, and the tracking should be started over again in order to decloak them. My point is that players should be able to chase out cloaky intel ships with special anti-cloaking devices.
This would put cloaky ships on the edge, like it should when you are in enemy territory. And at the same time, it gives the players/alliances the ability to chase out their spies who are camping their systems.
I am really interested hearing your veteran, and other new player opinions regarding this matter? Isn't the current cloaking not extremely flawned? Regards |
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
201
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Posted - 2013.07.10 12:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
IBTF
You're gonna get flamed on this one. Do a search and see all the other threads about this topci. |
Tachibane Kanade
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.07.10 12:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
I don't particularly mind being flamed by internet warriors. But I rather like to read from those who don't like the idea as to why they dont like it. I am not claiming that I know much about the game, because I don't.
But I just don't understand why people are not able to do anything about cloaky ships in their system (as long as the pilot isnt stupid). Gathering intel should be possible, im not saying it should be easy to scan down cloaky ships or anything but the general idea that alliances/corps whatever are almost completely helpless removing cloaky ships from their system.
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Argoist Zxim
Terraprobe Dynamics Aurora Foundation
12
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Posted - 2013.07.10 12:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
As had been said before: If you want the ability to uncloak ships with a module, pvpers get one for forcing you to undock from station.
Because they amount to the same thing. |
Mr Doctor
Los Polos Hermanos. Happy Cartel
30
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Posted - 2013.07.10 12:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cloaking is fine. Its not OP at all, nor is it next to impossible to kill a cloaky. |
Tachibane Kanade
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.07.10 13:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mr Doctor wrote:Cloaking is fine. Its not OP at all, nor is it next to impossible to kill a cloaky.
Could you explain? I have read topics how to decloak ships. But in thos every topics they said its very hard to succesfully do this and you generally only have a chance to do this when a ship is entering a system.
Once you miss that chance and the ship is cloaked, it then becomes nearly impossible to catch one because 'something' needs to be within 2500 meters of the cloaked ship in order to decloak it. And technically, a cloaked intel ship could just be 650 KM off-grid and AFK all day long with incredible little chance of ever getting decloaked am I wrong?
If there is a module to decloak a ship, for example scanning it down could take up to 5 minutes to complete (just entering random number for sake of argument) that should already be enough for people to try and drive out a intel ship from their system. Currently, they can't do much about it, which is stupid...
Maybe the idea of a ship-module is wrong then, maybe it should be a additional option on a POS? Then this shouldnt affect low-sec / highsec but only nullsec?
Again, I am sorry if my idea's should stupid, I am also completely fine with not changing the current mechanics. I just personally find it weird how it currently works. |
suid0
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
18
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Posted - 2013.07.10 13:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tachibane Kanade wrote:Mr Doctor wrote:Cloaking is fine. Its not OP at all, nor is it next to impossible to kill a cloaky. Could you explain? I have read topics how to decloak ships. But in thos every topics they said its very hard to succesfully do this and you generally only have a chance to do this when a ship is entering a system. Once you miss that chance and the ship is cloaked, it then becomes nearly impossible to catch one because 'something' needs to be within 2500 meters of the cloaked ship in order to decloak it. And technically, a cloaked intel ship could just be 650 KM off-grid and AFK all day long with incredible little chance of ever getting decloaked am I wrong? If there is a module to decloak a ship, for example scanning it down could take up to 5 minutes to complete (just entering random number for sake of argument) that should already be enough for people to try and drive out a intel ship from their system. Currently, they can't do much about it, which is stupid... Maybe the idea of a ship-module is wrong then, maybe it should be a additional option on a POS? Then this shouldnt affect low-sec / highsec but only nullsec where the stations are owned by players, not NPC Corps.Again, I am sorry if my idea's should stupid, I am also completely fine with not changing the current mechanics. I just personally find it weird how it currently works.
The reason these ideas are bad is because they allow you to find and decloak cloaked ships, which technically you shouldn't even know are there. You only know because the local chat tells you. Now you are wanting a risk free way to decloak and find any ship in system, without really putting anything on the line for this largly overpowered ability.
If this were to happen I think you were on the right track to begin with, it should be a ship module not POS. Because it'd just be dumped on a tower where a player doesn't have to defend it and abused to clean systems of cloakies. Instead... Make it a hi-slot module that can only be fitted to a super/titan, has a 5 minute timer like triage/siege mods and renders the ship immobile while active. Then you can hunt your decloaked ships.
tl;dr; cloaking is fine |
Tachibane Kanade
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.07.10 13:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Actually, I can't really find a solid counter response to:
"The reason these ideas are bad is because they allow you to find and decloak cloaked ships, which technically you shouldn't even know are there. You only know because the local chat tells you"
Haha, your absolutely right, it makes sense when you say it though. I guess its fine then to carebear in a enemy system 24/7 cloaked and be 99.99% safe. It still doesn't sit well with me, but yeah, the only reason currently you know they are there is because of chat...
hmmmmmmmmmmmm -__- sadface |
Arya Regnar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
44
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Posted - 2013.07.10 13:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Stop trying to make nullsec safe carebear. Go to highsec if it bothers you.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Tachibane Kanade
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 13:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Stop trying to make nullsec safe carebear. Go to highsec if it bothers you.
Did you actually read the thread or you simply misunderstand? Which one is it because you absolutely not making sense. Current mechanics allow for carebearing in nullsec while cloaked, while my whole suggestion is to find a way to change that and give corps/alliances some tools to get rid of these cloaky ships in their space.
Just leave the thread if you can't contribute properly, there is no need for you in this thread. Also, I am flying in highsec space as I am still new to the game. My suggestion came to mind after repeatedly watching Mad Ani's stream and the inability for alliances to be able to do anything against it. |
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suid0
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
19
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Posted - 2013.07.10 13:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tachibane Kanade wrote:Actually, I can't really find a solid counter response to:
"The reason these ideas are bad is because they allow you to find and decloak cloaked ships, which technically you shouldn't even know are there. You only know because the local chat tells you"
Haha, your absolutely right, it makes sense when you say it though. I guess its fine then to carebear in a enemy system 24/7 cloaked and be 99.99% safe. It still doesn't sit well with me, but yeah, the only reason currently you know they are there is because of chat, which is equally bad.
hmmmmmmmmmmmm -__- sadface
Your best counter to an afk cloaky is to change systems (harder if you are a renter with limited systems to pick from)
If the cloaky follows (or another one shows up), they're not afk and might be hunting you. |
Tachibane Kanade
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 14:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
suid0 wrote:Tachibane Kanade wrote:Actually, I can't really find a solid counter response to:
"The reason these ideas are bad is because they allow you to find and decloak cloaked ships, which technically you shouldn't even know are there. You only know because the local chat tells you"
Haha, your absolutely right, it makes sense when you say it though. I guess its fine then to carebear in a enemy system 24/7 cloaked and be 99.99% safe. It still doesn't sit well with me, but yeah, the only reason currently you know they are there is because of chat, which is equally bad.
hmmmmmmmmmmmm -__- sadface Your best counter to an afk cloaky is to change systems (harder if you are a renter with limited systems to pick from) If the cloaky follows (or another one shows up), they're not afk and might be hunting you.
Yes, but my reason for coming up with the idea in the first place is actually towards one specific type of players. Those "intel" players who camp certain systems only to track down enemy movement. Like for example exactly what Mad Ani is doing for his stream.
He just sits in the system, nothing you do will bait him, because he ain't there to fight. He just watches the staging system. This ability to just sit there and a alliance who owns that space is not able to anything against it is the only thing that I find a bit weird. Or maybe I just want to see Mad Ani's ship get tackled on the stream... haha I don't know :-)
However you have convinced me earlier, It's true that you only know about a cloaky in your system because you see it on local. That by itself is equally stupid. And above all, if all the big alliances in nullsec are ok with the current mechanics, it shouldnt have to be changed anyway. I just found it a bit strange. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
211
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 14:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tachibane Kanade wrote:Actually, I can't really find a solid counter response to:
"The reason these ideas are bad is because they allow you to find and decloak cloaked ships, which technically you shouldn't even know are there. You only know because the local chat tells you"
Haha, your absolutely right, it makes sense when you say it though. I guess its fine then to carebear in a enemy system 24/7 cloaked and be 99.99% safe. It still doesn't sit well with me, but yeah, the only reason currently you know they are there is because of chat, which is equally bad.
hmmmmmmmmmmmm -__- sadface There is lore explanation to local chat: you know they are there because they came through stargate (which keeps track of all ships passing through). But that part of lore does not explain why ships that cyno in system or come from wormhole are also shown in local. Fix that and then you can add as many cloaky hunting modules as you want. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
963
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Posted - 2013.07.10 14:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tachibane Kanade wrote:Hello
Hi there.
Could you care to explain why cloak is a problem? Your first explanation or at least your point is not quite clear, specially based on streams so you said.
To solve whatever problem, if there's one in the first place, you need to identify said mechanic problem first then figure if there are counters. If there is no counter then yes it's OP, if there are counters to it then it's not a problem except for lazy players not willing to understand this is not a scripted game but a player made content one, thus those lazy players should start applying tactics or being creative/imaginative instead of moaning because something is not handed to them.
At this day and after hundreds of pages dozens of threads about this over the years no one yet has identified a single true problem that can't be solved with in game tools, thus cloak is not a problem. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Tachibane Kanade
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 14:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Tachibane Kanade wrote:Hello Hi there. Could you care to explain why cloak is a problem? Your first explanation or at least your point is not quite clear, specially based on streams so you said. To solve whatever problem, if there's one in the first place, you need to identify said mechanic problem first then figure if there are counters. If there is no counter then yes it's OP, if there are counters to it then it's not a problem except for lazy players not willing to understand this is not a scripted game but a player made content one, thus those lazy players should start applying tactics or being creative/imaginative instead of moaning because something is not handed to them. At this day and after hundreds of pages dozens of threads about this over the years no one yet has identified a single true problem that can't be solved with in game tools, thus cloak is not a problem.
Hello,
The reason started after watching Mad Ani's stream. He is streaming the Fountain war (I am greatful to him for that). But, at the same time I started thinking about the whole cloaking mechanics because basically the alliance in that system is totally unable to do anything to try and flush him out of their system. They need to be in 2500 meter range to get him out of the system, but because the space is quite vast. He could just sit 600KM from the gate and idle there and the chance of any object coming close enough to him is nihil.
He can just spy all day long in that system without the slightest care of being discovered because people can't do anything against that. Because there are no modules or tools available to flush him out properly if he doesn't want to leave. And that is what I find 'strange' game mechanics, even for cloaky ships. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15144
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 14:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
I see you took the time to search the forum and gather information before posting. But I digress.
What exactly is wrong with people idling or going AFK, whilst cloaked?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Tachibane Kanade
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 14:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mag's wrote:I see you took the time to search the forum and gather information before posting. But I digress.
What exactly is wrong with people idling or going AFK, whilst cloaked?
Honestly, there is nothing wrong being AFK or idling in a system. I just believe that there should also be mechanics in place for players to flush out cloaky ships in their system. I mean with all that advanced technology available in EVE there is nothing practical a alliance or corp can do to effectively flush a player out of a system.
Don't you find it strange? Well apparently most of you don't and I am completely fine with that. It just strikes me as weird :) |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15144
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 14:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
Why should you be able to flush them out and how can this be done without making null safer than it already is?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
490
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 14:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tachibane Kanade wrote: This ability to just sit there and a alliance who owns that space is not able to anything against it is the only thing that I find a bit weird.
As well as in this scenario the "spy" can't do anything to hide his presence in the system, everyone get this information for free reading the local. This is why is balanced. At least the "spy" had to fit a ship, pass gates and fly in hostile territory. People in local get free intelligence doing nothing and risking nothing.
Then it becomes a fight for intelligence have to be countered with intelligence tools: providing fake informations, doing the same to them and so on. There're plenty of "intelligence" tools used in EVE, and none of this has a counter based on activating a module or shooting. It's just a different game layer.
Also, alliances don't have to be able to totally clear the systems they claim against any external/neutral/hostile presence (as already is for a good 99%), this could be bad for the general gameplay.
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Tachibane Kanade
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 14:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
................ editing (answered already) |
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
2016
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 14:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
You brought up Cloaking. I will try to help explain.
To assume it is not tied into Local Chat is a glaring failure to recognize the cause and effect relationship they share.
Actually suggesting that the problem begins with the pilot using AFK Cloaking tactics, ignores enough to be considered mislead.
I shall try to explain a few details that are usually glossed over crudely, but hold the truth.
AFK Cloaking: This is done in response to Local Chat flawlessly reporting pilot presence. It dumbs down the interaction between pilots by outright telling all parties who is present. Without this crutch, use of sensors, strategy, and cooperation would be needed to fill the void. What does it achieve? It creates a flaw in the usual flow of cause and effect for life in many systems. Often, a neutral or hostile pilot is seen entering, and activity is suspended until they leave. There is trivial risk, as standard procedure often involves being ready to get safe in the time frame provided by this instant alarm. Hostile pilots who refuse to leave are subsequently hunted down. When the "AFK Cloaking" pilot enters, he disrupts this process, by not leaving. Further, since this intel tool persistently shows him present, the default response of suspending activity is perpetually pushed as chosen reaction. This devalues the intel tool, as it is now being used against the native PvE pilots instead of helping them. If local were removed, sensors strategy and cooperation would be placed as valuable means of protecting PvE income assets. It would also be pointless to AFK cloak, as noone would be aware of your presence while you were passive. It is widely anticipated that any change to local which stopped free cloaking awareness would also include a means to hunt cloaked ships.
Summary: That free intel tool favored by so many can be used by the hunters too.
Hot Dropping: Bridging is intended to bypass reinforced blockades and travel time. Here, it has been fine tuned to avoid advertising the presence of a fleet to the free intel tool as well by delaying the easily recognizable population spike till the last possible moment. The intention is to deny the warning local provides, although it still reports the presence of the cyno boat enough to be associated with AFK Cloaking instead. Quite simply, while PvE pilots would never resume regular activities with a hostile fleet present, they are sometimes willing to gamble over whether a cloaked vessel represents that level of threat at a given time.
Sorry about the length, but the mindless repetition of "AFK Cloaking is bad mmkay" sounds foolish. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
682
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 14:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tachibane Kanade wrote: It seems that according to feedback posted below, the ability to decloak using ship-modules would be the same as forcing a player to undock. I don't really understand this,
If you don't understand these things then why are you making such game changing suggestions????
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
Rayzilla Zaraki
Tandokuno
124
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 15:01:00 -
[23] - Quote
I do agree that it is weird that there is no mechanic by which players can actively hunt down cloaked spies.
The closest analogies to cloaked spies would be submarines and we all know it is possible to hunt them down. Not easy, but possible.
However, submarines don't show up on "local chat" since there is currently no such thing in real life. The good guys have to suspect that the bad guys have a submarine parked off their coast then proceed to look for it. No looking in the chat system and counting faces.
So...what throws the whole argument about it being logical to be able to hunt cloaked spies (with which I agree) is that local chat exists. A lot of people like to point out that local is the counter to cloaks. It is to an extent, but it's not a 100% counter.
So, the logical idea would be to completely remove local and then allow the hunting. But, that kind of kills the social aspect of the game. Face it, we like to BS with others who aren't in our corp or trash talk players in a fight.
The compromise that makes sense is that activating a cloak removes you from local but still allows you to monitor it. Of course, non-cloaky types would scream that its unfair, despite it making total sense.
So, to appease the screamers, some sort of module would have to be created that would warn of a cloaked ship in the system and give only the roughest location for it. Players would then have to scan down and attack the cloaked ship similar to how you described. I prefer a specialized AOE missile designed to force a decloak, myself. Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
491
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 15:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Tachibane Kanade wrote:And I am not going to suggest to remove local etc haha, so I guess its fine the way it is now. But, I do still believe that "not able to flush out a cloaky player in your system" is still a bit weird that you can't really do that. It feels to me that you should be able too :)
And I feel one shouln't be able to simply dock as soon as an hostile presence is announced in local (or 6-7 jumps before due to intell channels) avoiding any risk.
The current system is already strongly unbalanced to strongly advantage the defenders/owners. Wasn't always so, are changes they made in the last years that caused a stagnant boredom.
The defender can already rely on being in their home system, having his hangar there, unlimited reship, corporation and alliance help. POS, station, blobs, gatecamps, unlimited intelligence from local.... nerfing the room left for a cov op intruder equal to totally lock those systems.
That's what null-bears want.
So they can sit 24/7 like fat ISK-pigs 100% safe in the more profittable areas of the game. Alone and AFK. This is not good for the general gameplay.
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
2016
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 15:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
Here, try this out for size:
Local fixing, so it is still social and yet doesn't offer intel beyond logical limits: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2369739#post2369739
How to hunt cloaked vessels, using as much as possible to balance them fairly: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2668453#post2668453 (Yes, the title specifies the condition that local not hand out their presence for free, a condition which is satisfied by the first thread above)
Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Rayzilla Zaraki
Tandokuno
124
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 15:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Insert shameless self-promotion here -------->
:-) Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
2016
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 15:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:Insert shameless self-promotion here --------> :-) I deny nothing, but I do point out that if a better solution is offered, I will use that instead.
I am simply an engineer with free time, who likes to solve these kinds of puzzles :) Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Rayzilla Zaraki
Tandokuno
124
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 15:15:00 -
[28] - Quote
I deny nothing, but I do point out that if a better solution is offered, I will use that instead.
I am simply an engineer with free time, who likes to solve these kinds of puzzles :)[/quote]
In that case, let the link wars begin!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=234371
Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues. |
Rayzilla Zaraki
Tandokuno
124
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 15:41:00 -
[29] - Quote
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:[quote=Nikk Narrel] I deny nothing, but I do point out that if a better solution is offered, I will use that instead.
I am simply an engineer with free time, who likes to solve these kinds of puzzles :)
In that case, let the link wars begin!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=234371 Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
2018
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 15:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote: I deny nothing, but I do point out that if a better solution is offered, I will use that instead.
I am simply an engineer with free time, who likes to solve these kinds of puzzles :)
In that case, let the link wars begin! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=234371 Ok, I am missing something here.
Are you operating under the belief that cloaking is not balanced, and this is how you correct it?
OR
Am I missing where this balancing aspect pays for the ability to hunt cloaked vessels? Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
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