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zatazon
Z's Corp
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 07:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have an Orca/Hulk Pilot with maxed refininy/mining skills and almost maxed Mining Boosting(working on maxing it out). I have an Alt that is soon to be a Hulk pilot and i was wondering if anyone knows off the top of their head what is the better combo. Should i run both hulks mining and hauling their own ore or is a Orca/Hulk combo better? I would use mining drones on both aside from when the rats come out to play. T2 miners with t2 crystals on the hulks, so yeah, thanks in advance for any help. |
Yorick rashnikov
Lost Society
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
my main account is an orca pilot and i run mining ops fairly often. You need around 2-3 Hulks before it makes up for the missing hulk spot the orca is taking. on the other hand -> if you have a orca that means the hulk doesent have to travel that much.
but on paper you'd get more yield with 2 hulks than 1 hulk and an orca. |
zatazon
Z's Corp
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ok thanks, I guess it will come down to if i want to be lazy and haul less or pay more attention and do 2 hulks. Thank you very much for the answer. Happy rock smashing |
Bloody Wench
85
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Posted - 2011.10.25 12:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
I thought it was 4 hulks & Orca is better than 5 hulks.
I have no evidence to back this up, just what's in my head. |
Eddie Laydon
Power Absolute Absolute Damage Inc.
2
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Posted - 2011.10.25 13:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
a maxed out orca gives a 56% boost, so 2 hulks and 1 orca are better than 3 hulks.
ps why dont you just let the hulks/orca tank the rats and let the mining drones do their thing, that way you wont loose any when the rats respawn. |
zatazon
Z's Corp
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 18:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Eddie Laydon wrote:a maxed out orca gives a 56% boost, so 2 hulks and 1 orca are better than 3 hulks.
ps why dont you just let the hulks/orca tank the rats and let the mining drones do their thing, that way you wont loose any when the rats respawn.
Thanks for the actual numbers, as for the rats... I could just let them tank, but there is just something about getting shot at and not shooting back that bugs me. So I either run mining drones and swap them out or if I'm really lazy just leave my combat drones out. I don't claim to be the most efficient miner, but it works for me. |
Jenn Makanen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
24
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Posted - 2011.10.25 18:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Eddie Laydon wrote:a maxed out orca gives a 56% boost, so 2 hulks and 1 orca are better than 3 hulks.
And that's not covering the bonus cycles from not needing to run to a station to drop off your ore. Or the extended range. |
Igniskhin
Veyr The Veyr Collective
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 19:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
for pure mining efficiency i agree with the people above me, 2 hulks 1 orca with even close to perfect skills (i cant remember if the 56% is with or with out the implant) produces more raw ore then 3 hulks.
but if you want a less interactive play style then 1 hulk and 1 orca you only have to look at the screen every... 9 minutes i think... longer if you switch from MLUs to cargo expander but then your pushing something like 1.5 hours to fill the orca (this is very fuzzy math that I'm only half remembering FYI so i could be way off) |
george harries
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.10.26 10:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
^ what he said - I semi-afk mine - whilst watching tv or reading, yes 2 hulks are far more efficient but if you cba with the additional alt-tabbing and clicking then it's fine - and the orca pilot can always have mining drones out for a bit of extra yield.
But then I'm usually lying down with laptop on a small table near to me so it suits my 'playstyle' when not doing something more immersive like missions or PvP. |
People's Republic ofChina
My Other Capital Ship is Your Mom
0
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Posted - 2011.10.26 11:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
You definitely need a hauling character for a proper mining operation, so might as well make that an orca, 1 hulk or 5 it matters not. Jet canning is not a viable alternative because of people like me and GSCs are painful. |
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DetKhord Saisio
Unchained Potential Test Alliance Please Ignore
4
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Posted - 2011.10.26 11:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
People's Republic ofChina wrote:GSCs are painful.
Agreed, they can be if not used efficiently with an alt hauler. Train an alt to pilot an Orca. While training, fly an industry hauler. Anchor one Giant Secure Container (GSC) with ~15km of ore on both sides towards opposite ends of the belt. Since range of most strip miners is 15 km, you can float about 2km further towards the ends... extending your "reach" per GSC to about 34km.
Only use one GSC per 34 km section of asteroid belt. Only use the GSC to transfer ore between mining ship and hauler. |
Winlet Dorn
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.10.26 15:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
My mini mining fleet is composed as such:
1 Orca (maxed skills + the mining foreman mindlink) with Laser Optimization, Mining Field Laser enhancement and a tractor beam. The Orca acts as a command point for everything from dropping ore/hauling it away when full, Rat defense, mining crystal storage point, etc. via the corp hanger
2 Hulks with max skills + implants 1 Retriever (he's working on getting Hulk skills)
I let all the mining craft dump ore straight to the Orca until it's full and then run it back to station. It lose very little yield in that process, plus it allows me to stay out there longer handing out bonuses to the Hulks. The Gang modules allow me to hit rocks at 22km. And when rats come come calling, the Orca fights them off which allows the Hulks to run mining drones, thus increasing their yield.
Right now, with that set-up, I can fill up an Orca in about 40 minutes. |
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
9
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Posted - 2011.10.26 16:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
My mining team (albeit ice mining) is 7 miners, 1 maxed orca with the Laser Optimization link in and 2x tractor beams, and an iteron V pilot,
I used to gather everyone around the orca and use corp hangar to drop into, and then the iteron to pick out of.
That was, until I read a post that made me think how vulnerable my set up was to a smarty bs, 7 macks all within a few km of the orca, so I spend a bit of time with a ceptor buzzing around creating bookmarks so now, all the miners are at least 10km from another miner, the orca hauls the cans in and the iteron picks from the orca. I still get the cycle bonus, but not the range, but that's not so important for ice mining. If I was ore mining, then I'd drop one of the tractors and put a mining laser field enhancement on instead, but still try and split up a bit so it's not just a ball of miners.
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Suki Okiwana
Sceptical Hippo Inc.
0
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Posted - 2011.10.27 07:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Eddie Laydon wrote:a maxed out orca gives a 56% boost, so 2 hulks and 1 orca are better than 3 hulks.
yields normalized to 1 minute
1.) boosted hulk:
no gang assist modules
3 * modulated strip miner II * mining crystal II * mining laser upgrade II * mining V * astrogeology V * mining foreman V with mindlink * mining barges V * exhumers V * highwall hx2 * michi
3 * 360 / 3 * 1.75 * 1.09^2 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.05 = 1961 m3/min
2.) support hulk:
no michi because of mindlink
3 * modulated strip miner II * mining crystal II * mining laser upgrade II * mining V * astrogeology V * mining foreman V with mindlink * mining barges V * exhumers V * highwall hx2
3 * 360 / 3 * 1.75 * 1.09^2 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.05 = 1867 m3/min
3.) orca:
laser optimization * mining director V * warfare link V * mindlink * industrial command ship V
0.02 * 5 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.15 = 0.25875 cycle time bonus
expressed as a yield bonus over 1 minute:
1/((1 - 0.25875) * 60) * 60 = 1.349
4.) orca boosted hulk:
boosted hulk * orca bonus
1961 * 1.349 = 2645 m3/min
5.) comparison
2 hulks: 1961 + 1867 = 3828 m3/min 1 hulk 1 orca: 1961 * 1.349 = 2645 m3/min
3 hulks: 2 * 1961 + 1867 = 5789 m3/min 2 hulks 1 orca: 2 * 1961 * 1.349 = 5290 m3/min
4 hulks: 3 * 1961 + 1867 = 7750 m3/min 3 hulks 1 orca: 3 * 1961 * 1.349 = 7936 m3/min |
People's Republic ofChina
My Other Capital Ship is Your Mom
6
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Posted - 2011.10.29 22:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
Suki Okiwana wrote:
5.) comparison
2 hulks: 1961 + 1867 = 3828 m3/min 1 hulk 1 orca: 1961 * 1.349 = 2645 m3/min
3 hulks: 2 * 1961 + 1867 = 5789 m3/min 2 hulks 1 orca: 2 * 1961 * 1.349 = 5290 m3/min
4 hulks: 3 * 1961 + 1867 = 7750 m3/min 3 hulks 1 orca: 3 * 1961 * 1.349 = 7936 m3/min
All of the above is purely academic, as 2 hulks no transport is not a viable option and 1 hulk 1 (anything else) is less effective than 1 hulk 1 orca.
(Ignoring the Rorqual). |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
91
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Posted - 2011.10.30 00:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
I've posted the math before, but let me share my experience.
For ease of ore mining, nothing beats having an Orca, or any hauler, along with you when mining ore. Forget the math. Hulks very quickly rip huge m3 amounts of ore out of asteroids.
However, for mining ice, an Orca or hauler is extremely inefficient because ice harvesting cycles are so long. For example, with Exhumers 4 in a Mackinaw fit to carry 3 cycles of ice (12,000 m3), that Mackinaw doesn't need to unload for nearly 20 minutes. Hence my mining booster and Orca / Rorqual pilot is also a Mackinaw pilot.
Ore: Hulk + Orca Ice: 2x Mackinaw
For the math crowd, don't forget that Mining Director still gives a 10 percent yield bonus without mining links, and the Mining Foreman Mindlink inplant also still raises that to 15 percent without mining links.
I personally use 2x Hulk + Orca / Rorqual + Bustard hauling, as even two fully boosted Hulks rip a lot of m3 of ore that can quickly fill an Orca. |
Suki Okiwana
Sceptical Hippo Inc.
1
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Posted - 2011.10.30 03:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
People's Republic ofChina wrote:All of the above is purely academic... Note what my post was in response to; he got to the right conclusion with false reasoning.
People's Republic ofChina wrote:2 hulks no transport is not a viable option... Define viable.
1.) hulk + orca:
2645 m3/min as shown in my previous post.
2.) 2 * max cargo hulk returning to station:
-capacity: 18727 m3 -boosted hulk yield: 1650 m3/min -support hulk yield: 1571 m3/min -assuming a generous 4 minute round trip to station -use of jet cans to work around fractional cycles
(18727 / (18727 / 1650 + 4)) + (18727 / (18727 / 1571 + 4)) = 2396 m3/min
10% better yield for several months of added training time. Failing to max the orca the double hulk setup wins outright. In my book this is not a bargain that separates viable from unviable.
3.) 2 * max yield hulk, switching to iteron V for hauling:
-iteron V capacity: 49233 m3 (cargohold optimization I and giant secure containers) -boosted hulk yield: 1961 m3/min -support hulk yield: 1867 m3/min -assuming the hauler mines for 60 minutes at a time (my choice back when I did this; less frequent hauling -> better yield but more risk) -assuming a generous 4 minute round trip to station -also 4 minutes to switch ships, hulk filled with ore when returning to station
1867 * 60 + 1961 * (60 + 4 + 4x) = 10580 + 49233x
x = 5.5 -> 6 rounds required to deliver ore
1867 * 60 + 1961 * (60 + 4 + 4 * 6) = 284588
284588 / (60 + 4 + 4 * 6) = 3233 m3/min
(This method easily beats the orca even with a bestower.)
I take academic over anecdotal or erroneous any day. Actually having tried all three I got the best of the bunch that is empirical. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Placid PI Thundering Herd
34
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Posted - 2011.10.30 03:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
IF you are limited to 2 toons...........
Running back and forth to drop off ore with BOTH Hulks will absolutely eat into any gains from the benefit of the 2nd Hulk. That is a LOT of time spent moving instead of mining with the 2 Hulks. So, no benefit here unless you have a 3rd Toon with Orca for the Hauling.
So......with 2 Toons, stick to the symbiotic Hulk/Orca pair. That way your Hulk gets the Orca bonuses whick you will not get obviously with the Hulk Only setup. Again the time saved by not running off to dump makes ALL the differennce here. God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved.
-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
9th candle
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.10.30 04:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:WHY OH WHY the overlong UberGeek Complicated Answers to a simple question from a guy limited to TWO TOONS ?? Sheesh.
IF you are limited to 2 toons...........
Running back and forth to drop off ore with BOTH Hulks will absolutely eat into any gains from the benefit of the 2nd Hulk. That is a LOT of time spent moving instead of mining with the 2 Hulks. So, no benefit here unless you have a 3rd Toon with Orca for the Hauling.
So......with 2 Toons, stick to the symbiotic Hulk/Orca pair. That way your Hulk gets the Orca bonuses which you will not get obviously with the Hulk Only setup. Again the time saved by not running off to dump makes ALL the differennce here.
Well done! Never mind your out-of-arse claim has been disproved in the [random caps]overlong ubergeek[/random caps] post just above yours, you even managed to contradict yourself. A perfect example why quality threads are hard to come by, there is no point bothering. You remind me of a nutritionist that firmly believes anything you can't pronounce is dangerous to eat.
OP it is a question of what you prefer: 2 hulks for maximum yield and orca for convenience. |
I Accidentally YourShip
Suzuka Heavy Industries
7
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Posted - 2011.10.30 05:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
Suki Okiwana wrote:
3.) 2 * max yield hulk, switching to iteron V for hauling:
-iteron V capacity: 49233 m3 (cargohold optimization I and giant secure containers) -boosted hulk yield: 1961 m3/min -support hulk yield: 1867 m3/min -assuming the hauler mines for 60 minutes at a time (my choice back when I did this; less frequent hauling -> better yield but more risk) -assuming a generous 4 minute round trip to station -also 4 minutes to switch ships, hulk filled with ore when returning to station
1867 * 60 + 1961 * (60 + 4 + 4x) = 10580 + 49233x
x = 5.5 -> 6 rounds required to deliver ore
1867 * 60 + 1961 * (60 + 4 + 4 * 6) = 284588
284588 / (60 + 4 + 4 * 6) = 3233 m3/min
(This method easily beats the orca even with a bestower.)
I take academic over anecdotal or erroneous any day. Actually having tried all three I got the best of the bunch that is empirical.
Second edit: No I interpreted correctly the first time, you are actually mining for an hour straight, putting these into jet cans as you go? That would never fly in system that isn't completely dead, and I tend to roam systems hunting for unsuspecting Hulks in belts. Can flipping would be an annoyance at the very least with the potential of robbing an entire hour of work. |
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Suki Okiwana
Sceptical Hippo Inc.
3
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Posted - 2011.10.30 12:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:Second edit: No I interpreted correctly the first time, you are actually mining for an hour straight, putting these into jet cans as you go? That would never fly in system that isn't completely dead, and I tend to roam systems hunting for unsuspecting Hulks in belts. Can flipping would be an annoyance at the very least with the potential of robbing an entire hour of work.
Any person doing this in the middle of caldari space during peak hours is a knob obviously but that does not render the method invalid. Some people are so risk averse they would never give up using anchored containers despite their drawbacks, others are merrily mining away in hulks in hostile space. If you can think of a way to quantify risk preferences please share.
But consider this: Reducing your mining time to 30 minutes cuts your risk in half and results in a 3178 m3/min yield. This is a minor difference compared to the 1 hour scenario and still beats the orca setup by a mile.
I have successfully mined billions of ISK worth of ore this way and lost no more than 10 million to can flipping. Even in the unlikely event a pirate finds me at the worst moment possible, I have safety measures in place to make sure the most he can take is what he can haul in one go, and I have yet to meet a can flipper followed around by an orca or multiple haulers.
But even if we assume a miner loses 10% of his yield to can flippers each month - which is ludicrous -, that still leaves him with a yield of 2909 m3/min compared to 2645 m3/min for the orca.
If there is one thing I'm certain of regarding this subject, it's that people lose the most money not to can flippers but to being afraid. |
Viktor von Steiner
Industrial Solution Shadow of Honor
6
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Posted - 2011.10.30 15:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
So, taking your numbers and putting them together in an highly optimistic scenario of everything running perfect I assume the following yields with a team of 2 hulks and one Orca:
ISK/m-¦- ISK/can- ISK per hour A- 325,76- 8.958.400- 102,71 m B- 225,83- 6.210.325- 71,66 m C- 162,62- 4.472.050- 51,58 m
Pyrox- 123,44- 3.394.600- 38,98 m Kernite- 107,52- 2.956.800- 34,04 m |
I Accidentally YourShip
Suzuka Heavy Industries
8
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Posted - 2011.10.30 15:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
Suki Okiwana wrote:I Accidentally YourShip wrote:Second edit: No I interpreted correctly the first time, you are actually mining for an hour straight, putting these into jet cans as you go? That would never fly in system that isn't completely dead, and I tend to roam systems hunting for unsuspecting Hulks in belts. Can flipping would be an annoyance at the very least with the potential of robbing an entire hour of work. Any person doing this in the middle of caldari space during peak hours is a knob obviously but that does not render the method invalid. Some people are so risk averse they would never give up using anchored containers despite their drawbacks, others are merrily mining away in hulks in hostile space. If you can think of a way to quantify risk preferences please share. But consider this: Reducing your mining time to 30 minutes cuts your risk in half and results in a 3178 m3/min yield. This is a minor difference compared to the 1 hour scenario and still beats the orca setup by a mile. I have successfully mined billions of ISK worth of ore this way and lost no more than 10 million to can flipping. Even in the unlikely event a pirate finds me at the worst moment possible, I have safety measures in place to make sure the most he can take is what he can haul in one go, and I have yet to meet a can flipper followed around by an orca or multiple haulers. But even if we assume a miner loses 10% of his yield to can flippers each month - which is ludicrous -, that still leaves him with a yield of 2909 m3/min compared to 2645 m3/min for the orca. If there is one thing I'm certain of regarding this subject, it's that people lose the most money not to can flippers but to being afraid.
I am convinced. Interesting turn of events. |
Dalloway Jones
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
46
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Posted - 2011.10.30 23:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Eddie Laydon wrote:
ps why dont you just let the hulks/orca tank the rats and let the mining drones do their thing, that way you wont loose any when the rats respawn.
My experience lately has been that if I don't pull in my mining drones right away there is at least a fifty percent chance the rats will go for them instead of my Hulk or Hauler. And mining drones pop almost instantly. So now I always pull them in and send out Hobgoblins to take care of the rats. |
zatazon
Z's Corp
1
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Posted - 2011.11.02 09:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
Thank you all for the thoughts and information, I will probably look into getting another toon trained up to hulk to improve the efficiency. I have a 3rd toon that i can use as a hauler but it is also my combat pilot so he is usually occupied somewhere else. Well thanks again for the info. |
Tamhuz Badasaz
Zeewolf Corporation Integrated Research and Industrial Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2011.12.07 23:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
I cargo mine while I read books and do school work. It can only be done in a high sec system with a station but the roughly 15 min intervals of reading break it up in a way that keeps me from getting board with what I'm reading. My cargo space is maxed out so I get three solid spins before I head back, unload and set out again. It seems like a lot of warping but with good bookmarks it's not that bad really. By the time I finish reading I've got tons of ore, I ready to get an A on whatever test I was reading for, and the best part, I didn't have to worry about can flippers or hauling at all. I know there are ways to mine more efficiently but being able to stop mining whenever I feel like it and not dealing with can flippers while getting work done is totally worth it. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
181
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 00:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
I started mining ore with one account in Hulk and one hauling in a Bestower (largest low skill Industrial), and later in an Orca, for convenience.
I used 2 accounts in Mackinaws when mining ice, as the cycle times were so long (20 minutes) compared to the time to drop-off ice and return (2 minutes = 10% time wasted < 100% more ice). Ore mining just produces too much volume too fast to manage without a hauler.
Just because I think math should be somewhat simple...
Theroetical only, assuming you have someone else to haul so you don't have to stop mining.
Where number of people in fleet > 1 for mindlink bonus: Yield = Number of Hulks * (1 + 15% mindlink implant bonus)
Yield(1) = 1.15 Yield(2) = 2.30 Yield(3) = 3.45 Yield(4) = 4.60 Yield(5) = 5.75
Throw a mindlinked max skill Orca into the mix with a 2% cycle reduction link: Yield = Number of Hulks * (1 + 15% mindlink implant bonus) / (1-0.02*5*1.5*1.5*1.15)
Yield(1) = 1.55 Yield(2) = 3.10 Yield(3) = 4.65 Yield(4) = 6.20 Yield(5) = 7.75
Throw a mindlinked max skill Rorqual into the mix with a 2% cycle reduction link (deployed): Yield = Number of Hulks * (1 + 15% mindlink implant bonus) / (1-0.02*5*1.5*1.5*1.5)
Yield(1) = 1.73 Yield(2) = 3.47 Yield(3) = 5.20 Yield(4) = 6.94 Yield(5) = 8.67
T2 links would of course be better. |
Xuzi
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2011.12.10 20:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
Hauling and convenience are both very important factors. One can tip the real math in favor of orca, the other can tip the psychological math in favor of the orca.
Jet canning is only a bad idea in belts/gravs. If you can mine at your own personal mission site, jetcanning can be relatively low risk. This can tip the math towards 2x hulk. |
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