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Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Assumption: CCP want a CSM that is representative of their player base.
Given that 80% of the EVE population is in Hisec (based on the most recent QEN), the current CSM seems to be heavily weighted in favour of the null-sec community.
It seems to me that the EVE playerbase can be separated into different groups based on different criteria, for example:
Rookies (say < 1 year old) Vets ( >1 year old)
Hisec residents Lowsec residents Null residents W-space residents
Casual players (play <15 hrs per week) Hardcore gamers ( >15 hrs per week) Bots ( >23/7)
PvPers Mission bears Industrialists Miners
etc
Obviously there's a lot of overlap and most players fit into multiple categories. I think it would be a lot of work (and open to abuse) to try and put the playerbase into "CSM constituencies" based on any categorisation.
However there is another way to ensure the different populations get adequate representation on CSM. Set up the CSM so that each seat has a specific role, for example:
Hisec Rep Lowsec Rep Null Rep W-Space Rep PvP Rep PvE Rep Industrialist Rep Rookie Rep Bittervet Rep Casual Player Rep
Etc
When CSM candidates get nominated they choose which role they want to stand for, and set out their manifesto for what they would push for in that role. So for example, the Bittervet Rep might stand on a platform of moar skillz and gimme new toys to play with, while the PvE Rep might say they'll push for new missions or changes to Exploration.
Players then vote for who they want in each role, and can see more clearly as CSM progresses whether (for example) the Hisec rep is doing a good job of representing the concerns of Hisec residents.
They also know who to go to if they have a particular concern. Don't like the POCO setup? Complain through the Industrialist Rep. Removal of high-ends from W-space? Talk to the W-space rep.
This proposal would, I think, make the playerbase feel more "enfranchised", give CSM a bigger voice with CCP, and give CCP better representation of the playerbase.
Comments? |
March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
28
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Zyrbalax III wrote: It seems to me that the EVE playerbase can be separated into different groups based on different criteria, for example:
Rookies (say < 1 year old) Vets ( >1 year old)
wont work. i have 2 accounts: - 1.5 years old - 2 months old. How would you separate it?
And the same is about all other categories. |
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Zyrbalax III wrote: It seems to me that the EVE playerbase can be separated into different groups based on different criteria, for example:
Rookies (say < 1 year old) Vets ( >1 year old)
wont work. i have 2 accounts: - 1.5 years old - 2 months old. How would you separate it? And the same is about all other categories.
Might want to read the whole post first? |
Aldan Romar
Imperial Academy
30
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
It's a democratic process.
If more highsec candidates were willing to step up, and if more highsec dwellers were willing to vote there would be more highsec representatives in the CSM.
Why create niches for people who cannot be arsed to be politically active or have no support with active voters? You cannot 'construct' a political landscape, it has to grow on it's own.
Not saying your idea is bad - in an ideal world all those roles would be filled within the political landscape. And as much as your assumption would be nice for CCP, reality says: CCP gets a CSM that is representative of those players who are interested enough to vote.
Perhaps better find a way to interest those underrepresented groups? Chribba: null-sec is scary! Surfin's PlunderBunny: I think lowsec is scarier... spent about 5 hours in null and saw one other person in that time. We spent over an hour trying to out afk-cloak each other |
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
26
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
Where does a candidate who runs on client based or graphical/ mechanical issues that would effect the whole playerbase fit?
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Tanya Fox
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
How about we just get rid of the CSM.
They will never be a true representation and like most people in those kind of positions their own interests and agendas come first.
Plus as far as I know it's a voluntary position so it's not like they have any fear of losing the position to keep them in check.
There's plenty of information CCP can gather if they only bother to keep a look out for it, on these forums (all of the game related ones) and ingame. |
Jareck Hunter
Rubicon Legion Initiative Mercenaries
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aldan Romar wrote:It's a democratic process.
This and the rest he says.
If the people don't vote, they shall not complain later.
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Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aldan Romar wrote:It's a democratic process.
If more highsec candidates were willing to step up, and if more highsec dwellers were willing to vote there would be more highsec representatives in the CSM.
Why create niches for people who cannot be arsed to be politically active or have no support with active voters? You cannot 'construct' a political landscape, it has to grow on it's own.
Not saying your idea is bad - in an ideal world all those roles would be filled within the political landscape. And as much as your assumption would be nice for CCP, reality says: CCP gets a CSM that is representative of those players who are interested enough to vote.
Perhaps better find a way to interest those underrepresented groups?
I understand what you're saying, but I wonder whether we're in a catch-22; players don't vote now because they don't think their views will be represented; so creating a system where they *know* their views will be represented may encourage them to vote.
I may be wrong - but we'll only know if we try something different!
Oh, and most democracies do use constituencies, they don't just put through the top x candidates. |
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon wrote:Where does a candidate who runs on client based or graphical/ mechanical issues that would effect the whole playerbase fit?
Maybe have one or more "non-specific" roles for candidates with platforms that don't fit any of the "specific" seats? |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
161
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
I always find it strange that you have to vote for people, not ideas.
Example: the one I voted for had a 62% agreement on the list of issues. That means almost 40% of the things I find important already won't make it! Let alone the difference of how much weight do you put on an issue?
Why not let the players vote for ideas (the same that are used by thematching tool) so you at least know what the playerbase wants and what they think is the most wanted improvement?
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Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jareck Hunter wrote:Aldan Romar wrote:It's a democratic process. This and the rest he says. If the people don't vote, they shall not complain later. This. Also, probably >50% of empire chars are in fact alts of 0.0 players. |
Tanya Fox
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zyrbalax III wrote:Aldan Romar wrote:It's a democratic process.
If more highsec candidates were willing to step up, and if more highsec dwellers were willing to vote there would be more highsec representatives in the CSM.
Why create niches for people who cannot be arsed to be politically active or have no support with active voters? You cannot 'construct' a political landscape, it has to grow on it's own.
Not saying your idea is bad - in an ideal world all those roles would be filled within the political landscape. And as much as your assumption would be nice for CCP, reality says: CCP gets a CSM that is representative of those players who are interested enough to vote.
Perhaps better find a way to interest those underrepresented groups? I understand what you're saying, but I wonder whether we're in a catch-22; players don't vote now because they don't think their views will be represented; so creating a system where they *know* their views will be represented may encourage them to vote. I may be wrong - but we'll only know if we try something different! Oh, and most democracies do use constituencies, they don't just put through the top x candidates.
Question is do people feel like they're being represented now by the CSM?
How do you choose which candidate to vote for, chances are you won't actually know them. Even if you do know a candidate, do we want a system where people vote for their friends and alliance/corp members.
The CSM is nothing more than PR tool, we saw them in action (lack of) months ago, the only time some of them actually started to get involved was when player opinion was against them, so they then made a big song and dance about it out of self-preservation. Do you really want these kinds of people representing you?
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Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
1
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Aineko Macx wrote:Jareck Hunter wrote:Aldan Romar wrote:It's a democratic process. This and the rest he says. If the people don't vote, they shall not complain later. This. Also, probably >50% of empire chars are in fact alts of 0.0 players.
Name me one RL democracy that elects its government based on the x candidates that get the most votes. For a presidential election this works, but RL democracies use constituencies (of one form or another).
What we have now for CSM is *NOT* democratic in the way that RL tried and tested governance has developed. So it should be no surprise CSM is not working as intended to represent the playerbase to CCP right now.
Oh, and according to QEN, null + W-space population = 105k; hi-sec population = >600k. If half are 0.0 alts that means every 0.0 resident has 3 hisec alts, in which case presumably they do actually care about what happens in hisec as that's where they spend most of their time. |
Aldan Romar
Imperial Academy
30
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:39:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zyrbalax III wrote:I understand what you're saying, but I wonder whether we're in a catch-22; players don't vote now because they don't think their views will be represented; so creating a system where they *know* their views will be represented may encourage them to vote. ... It is a catch 22 which is imminent with some democracies these days. People may vote, may not see their ideas become reality and cease to vote which leads to their ideas being less and less represented.
I do see what you are proposing, but you cannot give political weight to a minority.
What could be possible would be to have a seat for each niche, and give them voting rights in relation to the votes they got: i.e. the nullsec seat got 10,000 votes, the highsec seat got 1,000 votes, so the nullsec seat gets to vote with 10 votes on CSM decisions and the higsec seat with one. This would at least make sure that every niche's voice is heard even if they cannot actually influence policies. If you want to strengthen their position you could give them a veto possibility.
Or create an advisor role: let the CSM be created in a true democratic way, but also add a person for each niche that just adds to the discussion but cannot decide on policies. Chribba: null-sec is scary! Surfin's PlunderBunny: I think lowsec is scarier... spent about 5 hours in null and saw one other person in that time. We spent over an hour trying to out afk-cloak each other |
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 09:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
Aldan Romar wrote:Or create an advisor role: let the CSM be created in a true democratic way, but also add a person for each niche that just adds to the discussion but cannot decide on policies.
I like this idea actually - best of both worlds? Democracy plus every niche has a voice. +1 |
TR4D3R4LT
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aldan Romar wrote:It's a democratic process.
If more highsec candidates were willing to step up, and if more highsec dwellers were willing to vote there would be more highsec representatives in the CSM.
Why create niches for people who cannot be arsed to be politically active or have no support with active voters? You cannot 'construct' a political landscape, it has to grow on it's own.
Not saying your idea is bad - in an ideal world all those roles would be filled within the political landscape. And as much as your assumption would be nice for CCP, reality says: CCP gets a CSM that is representative of those players who are interested enough to vote.
Perhaps better find a way to interest those underrepresented groups?
The problem of not creating said "niches" for people who cant be arsed is that eventually said people are going to leave as there is nothing new for them while other people get the toys. It's part of democratic process too, that's why politicians try to maintain facade that they care for all people in the country. If nobody in the democratic government cares for them it alienate these people, they lose interest in said "country" and there is various problems. Look at past 5000 years of human society and you can see it clearly.
For Eve it spells reduction in subs, which in turn makes so called "griefers" sad as their targets start to grow few and far between while at the same time more protected by CCP. It's downward spiral that keeps rolling, sure you can argue whole way down that you're right with statement but it wont stop the spiraling down. Only way to do that is to act like politicians do, keeping up a facade that you care even if you dont. You can mess around with your non-voters to extent, you can raise taxes but not too much, it's walking on the edge of razor especially if you consider that aprox 50% of players are the said "alienated" group. So tossing candy now and then to empire kids to keep them happy is smart, giving them kick now and then without candy is not.
The prob of getting them interested lies in fact that most of the players have chosen not to get interested, even if there was real life monetary reward, say 500 dollar for voting in CSM elections, people would not care who they are voting or why, they would care about the money. Only way to show those under active groups that CSM matters is to make CSM matter to them, that is done by actually making CSM do something for them, aka create "niches" for those people and keep noise about it. Or playing poker with people's feelings and having CSM **** royally over said people in hopes they react constructively. When it comes to people's feelings I've always preferred not to play poker if it can be helped. |
Tanya Fox
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 09:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Aldan Romar wrote:Zyrbalax III wrote:I understand what you're saying, but I wonder whether we're in a catch-22; players don't vote now because they don't think their views will be represented; so creating a system where they *know* their views will be represented may encourage them to vote. ... It is a catch 22 which is imminent with some democracies these days. People may vote, may not see their ideas become reality and cease to vote which leads to their ideas being less and less represented. I do see what you are proposing, but you cannot give political weight to a minority. What could be possible would be to have a seat for each niche, and give them voting rights in relation to the votes they got: i.e. the nullsec seat got 10,000 votes, the highsec seat got 1,000 votes, so the nullsec seat gets to vote with 10 votes on CSM decisions and the higsec seat with one. This would at least make sure that every niche's voice is heard even if they cannot actually influence policies. If you want to strengthen their position you could give them a veto possibility. Or create an advisor role: let the CSM be created in a true democratic way, but also add a person for each niche that just adds to the discussion but cannot decide on policies.
lol, 10 x 0.0 candidates and 1x high-sec where the majority of players are in high-sec.
Yeah... I can see that working, not.
It's not just if people mine or rat etc... it's also the regions they inhabit (also playstyles which tend to be regional too).
It might be quaint to dabble in politics, but you really are flogging a dead horse with the CSM. |
Jareck Hunter
Rubicon Legion Initiative Mercenaries
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
Zyrbalax III wrote:Name me one RL democracy that elects its government based on the x candidates that get the most votes. For a presidential election this works, but RL democracies use constituencies (of one form or another). .
Sorry, but thats more a logistical problem, thats get solved by constituencies in RL. And i guess yourn american, the democracy where the candidat with less votes still can win.... What we see in the CSM is nearly the purest form of democracy, the one with the most votes wins a place.
Then i don't think you have a glue what the CSM is doing. They don't make decisions inside CCP, they can suggest and discuss things, the whole CSM has one (1) voice from many as Stakeholder(?) and they can complain, but in the end CCP says what they will/can do.
If your candidat/ideas don't get enoug votes, than maybe nobody is interrested in them. |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
661
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 09:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
I raised a "geographic boundary" as an option not so long ago which is reasonably equivalent to all voting systems worldwide.
Simply put, divide Eve as 8 points of a compass starting at the centre of the galaxy. Allow ONE candidate per compass sector.
At some random point in time, CCP does a snapshot of which sector players are based within. You cannot stack any sector without knowing 1) what the boundaries are and 2) when the snapshot will occur.
All sectors will inherently represent null/low and highsec. All static WH entrances (or closest to) are within the sector at the time of snapshot.
You now have ONE VOTE PER CHAR within EACH sector.
Normal candidacy selection and lobbying applies.
Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
435
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
this is totally the first time this has been brought up and the first time it's shot down because it's a stupid idea!!!!! |
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Tore Vest
Vikinghall
22
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Posted - 2011.10.25 10:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Just remove CSM. They are not doing anything good for the average player |
Tanya Fox
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2011.10.25 10:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jareck Hunter wrote:Zyrbalax III wrote:Name me one RL democracy that elects its government based on the x candidates that get the most votes. For a presidential election this works, but RL democracies use constituencies (of one form or another). . Sorry, but thats more a logistical problem, thats get solved by constituencies in RL. What we see in the CSM is nearly the purest form of democracy, the one with the most votes win. Then i don't think you have a glue what the CSM is doing. They don't make decisions inside CCP, they can suggest and discuss things, the whole CSM has one (1) voice from many as Stakeholder(?) and they can complain, but in the end CCP says what they will/can do. If your candidat/ideas don't get enoug votes, than maybe nobody is interrested in them.
The CSM can also give a distorted view of the real situation.
So you don't think the CSM can influence CCP's decision?
If that's the case what do we need the CSM for? |
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 10:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jareck Hunter wrote:Zyrbalax III wrote:Name me one RL democracy that elects its government based on the x candidates that get the most votes. For a presidential election this works, but RL democracies use constituencies (of one form or another). . Sorry, but thats more a logistical problem, thats get solved by constituencies in RL. And i guess yourn american, the democracy where the candidat with less votes still can win.... What we see in the CSM is nearly the purest form of democracy, the one with the most votes wins a place. Then i don't think you have a glue what the CSM is doing. They don't make decisions inside CCP, they can suggest and discuss things, the whole CSM has one (1) voice from many as Stakeholder(?) and they can complain, but in the end CCP says what they will/can do. If your candidat/ideas don't get enoug votes, than maybe nobody is interrested in them.
Not an American, based in UK (but similar problems in our system!)
I do understand that CSM don't have power, just a voice; my issue is that voice doesn't represent the whole playerbase to CCP. I know CCP decide what to do regardless of CSM, but at the moment they're taking those decisions without formally hearing the voice of the majority of the playerbase. (Forums being informal.) |
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
1
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Posted - 2011.10.25 10:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Andski wrote:this is totally the first time this has been brought up and the first time it's shot down because it's a stupid idea!!!!!
Link please? I searched the forums and found the geographic constituencies idea but no others. I don't think the geographic boundaries is feasible - too much work to implement, and not representative enough. Which is why I'm proposing something different.
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
435
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 10:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
When the CSM was dominated by Empire-based representatives, we didn't make hilariously stupid attempts at threadnaughts to disband or reorganize the CSM. Nullsec organized to get people into the CSM - why can't you?
Oh, right, anything that involves a modicum of effort isn't EVE, right? |
knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
9
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Posted - 2011.10.25 10:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
So despite the csm being mainly living in null what is the problem with what they've put on the table to be fixed?
It's not like the fixes are not positive for high sec or those wishing to go to low or null sec. Maybe for the high Dec mission runner it offers very little unless you fly with hybrids but then again nothing short of a mission revamp will sort out how dull they are. |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
661
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 10:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Andski wrote:this is totally the first time this has been brought up and the first time it's shot down because it's a stupid idea!!!!! Like all lobbyists worldwide, perhaps G**ns should be made to declare their interests before making political statements. Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
344
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Posted - 2011.10.25 10:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
A lot of the people in high-sec are the alts of 0.0 people anyway. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
1
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Posted - 2011.10.25 10:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
Andski wrote:When the CSM was dominated by Empire-based representatives, we didn't make hilariously stupid attempts at threadnaughts to disband or reorganize the CSM. Nullsec organized to get people into the CSM - why can't you?
Oh, right, anything that involves a modicum of effort isn't EVE, right?
I'm not interested in CSM being dominated by any one group, I want it to represent all players and all playstyles in EVE.
I admit this is self-interest, because I want to experience all aspects of EVE and I want all aspects to be as good as they can be. Domination by any group is bad because you end up with one playstyle / area benefitting at the expense of others. Smart players would look for ways to enhance the game for all players not just some.
Glad you find my "threadnaught" hilarious. |
Jareck Hunter
Rubicon Legion Initiative Mercenaries
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 10:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
Zyrbalax III wrote:I do understand that CSM don't have power, just a voice; my issue is that voice doesn't represent the whole playerbase to CCP. I know CCP decide what to do regardless of CSM, but at the moment they're taking those decisions without formally hearing the voice of the majority of the playerbase. (Forums being informal.)
Ever heard of the CSM Crowdsources?
Just a small link i found after 1 min of search: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User_Interface_-_Big_Wins%2C_Fan_Favorites_and_Low_Hanging_Fruit_%28CSM%29
Those lists are respresented to CCP too and everybody can be heard. |
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