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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
459
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Posted - 2013.07.12 23:42:00 -
[31] - Quote
Robert Saint wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So, if I understand you correctly, you find more gratification in say, a 1v1 frigate/cruiser/whatever fight than in a gang roam killing singles? Fair enough, certainly.
I find as much gratification getting on comms, rolling out with the bros and going to make somebody have a bad day, whoever is unlucky enough to get caught, lol. As far as PvP goes, I have always believed in "different strokes".
I get the kicks factor you are talking about, and EVE certainly has that part covered. It's the game of minds I find most challenging though in a PVP experience, chess or spaceships. If you don't want a challenge, then roam with a gang looking for solos to own. If you get lucky, you will find another gang and then you have a real challenge or at least close to it. I would argue the later is much more memorable to your game play and gets a rewind moment in local.
Ah, so you objected to my chess comment then, that makes sense.
It isn't that I have no aptitude for it, merely that I do not, nor have I ever, found chess to be challenging/enjoyable for the challenge. Particularly since, by the 5th or 6th move of the game, the game has been determined. The rest of it is just the losing player figuring it out eventually. Same reason I hate StarCraft-style RTS games, they are so build order oriented that the game is won or lost before the players even make contact. It just rubs me the wrong way.
Yeah, perhaps gang roaming isn't a challenge when you jump on one guy. But it is PvP, and it's part of what I consider to be fun about it. It is always particularly good fun when you manage to jump another gang. Funny enough though, even flying a 7-8 man cruiser gang, I have seen even battlecruiser gangs twice our size scatter just because we managed to jump to 0 on them. (scouting RULES) Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
434
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Posted - 2013.07.13 01:07:00 -
[32] - Quote
Robert Saint wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote:PvP to me is the classic FPS definition: Player (human) vs Player (human) duking it out on a battlefield.
I've read many of your posts and you seem to find value in the match up? Like any good superhero story, it's boring if one side is too OP.. Where in EVE can you find a good match up, where you feel it was a good fight and not a "gank", but one where you and your opponent chat afterwards about the battle. Is there a magic place for this?
EvE isn't a good "match up", considering it's a skills game, but quickly throws it away to make it like a FPS game.
In FPS games they have gear normalization. You can unlock more powerful weapons, but that buck private can kill a general with his pistol just as easy as the general can with an AK-47. That is how EvE operates in fighting mechanics.
In WoW, gear matters along with skill. To "match up" in arenas you are rated by the difficulty of your opponents based on previous wins. Kill a team with higher MMR, your rating goes up and vice versa if you're defeated. The odds are that the higher MMR players will win, because not only gear matters (top arena players are in 2200 gear which has better stats) their proficiency (knowing their class abilities well and counter tactics). EvE doesn't even have a rating system to judge proficiency like a true FPS game. EvE just scores who killed what and what was lost, no other stats apply.
At best EvE is a hybrid. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Forum Clone 77777
State War Academy Caldari State
127
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Posted - 2013.07.13 01:10:00 -
[33] - Quote
Guys.. I think.. I really think this thread is a trap.. o,O |
Robert Saint
Playright
96
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Posted - 2013.07.13 01:19:00 -
[34] - Quote
Forum Clone 77777 wrote:Guys.. I think.. I really think this thread is a trap.. o,O
Are we all being too civilized, is that it?
It is difficult to understand what motivates others to do things and why they enjoy this or other PVP gaming activities.
It is rather clear from my posts in this and other threads that I am more of the "We fight with honor" type of player, but since that is not all that obvious in EVE, it is also helpful to new players, PVE players and the general understanding of what PVP means to EVE's player base as a collective.
This understanding really helps those adverse to participating in PVP in EVE.
Most PVE players just think the PVP crowd players are jerks.....so this is a chance to talk about it.... that's all.. we're all gamers!
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Rells
Fusillade.
32
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Posted - 2013.07.13 02:23:00 -
[35] - Quote
Robert Saint wrote:So EVE is a difficult game to figure out, as I try to balance my personal understanding of what Player Vs Player is.
Although, I have my personal view of what PVP, I would very much like to hear what anyone who is brave enough to post in GD.... as would others who read these threads.
Post with your MAIN, otherwise you're missing the point.
1) What is PVP to you? 2) Why do you like it?
With PVP you are fighting a thinking opponent, not a computer that can be mapped out and defeated with either the right setup or force. You can change a setup but your opponent can counter that setup. You can bring significant force but the other oponent can counter with tactics. Its ever changing, moving, difficult to perfect and that is what makes it worth doing.
Any person with half a brain can excel in PvE. It takes exceptional strategists and tacticians to excel at pvp.
To take out a fleet of 50 hacs with less than 20 players, takes skill. To hit and destroy ships of superior power with a coordinated frig attack takes skill. To modify tactics to allow 15 destroyers to decimate a 30 person mixed HAC, BS, Inty, Interdictor, Cruiser fleet takes exceptional skill, communication, guile and perseverance. Add to that the risk of losing your ship and clone and you have an experience unlike any other.
In short, PVE is boredom of the kind that kills people. Those who excel at pvp do pve because they have to to make money. They would much rather be out fighting. |
Verunae Caseti
Viziam Amarr Empire
108
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Posted - 2013.07.13 03:12:00 -
[36] - Quote
Robert Saint wrote:Do you feel that it is more rewarding to win in a PVP matchup if the odds are somewhat technically equal, and your skill was the deciding factor? Or are you perfectly comfortable being part of a gang that defeats a solo player that didn't have a chance?
That absolutely depends on what type of game I'm playing and what my goals are.
If you consider sports to be PvP, then balanced games are much more fun. I'd rather have a challenging game of pick-up basketball where the other team gives me a good run for my money than play a bunch of n'er-do-wells with two left feet who can't dribble the ball or find the backboard with a GPS.
But, take a game like No Limit Texas Hold'em with a few thousand dollars on the table, and I would MUCH rather go up against a bunch of rank-ass amateurs who wouldn't know a flush if they were trying to get rid of a bad case of post-Taco-Bell diarrhea.
In video games, again - it varies. Quick-twitch games like Team Fortress or Counterstrike tend to be more fun if the competition is rather even and games can go either way, then it feels exhilarating to win a match. But games like EVE can paint a different picture. Here "fairness" is more of a long-term concept, whereas individual encounters I seek to have an "unfair" advantage over my opponents whenever possible. If they want to even the playing field, they have every opportunity to join a corporation/alliance larger and more powerful than mine and come back and serve me a piping-hot or icy-cold dish of revenge. The game plays out over a much longer time frame and therefore the "evenness" of individual encounters is not as important as the balance of the game in the long run, and the ability of players to move within the social structure of the game and affect change.
This is one of EVE's great successes. By sticking to a single server, actions tend to have far-reaching and long-lasting consequences that you can't just run and hide from with a "name change" or a "server transfer." |
BiscuitMonsterr
University of Caille Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2013.07.13 04:12:00 -
[37] - Quote
Robert Saint wrote:BiscuitMonsterr wrote:
1) To me, PvP is difficult, complicated, boring and pointless. I don't enjoy it, I'm no good at it, and in 10 years of MMOs, I've not yet ever felt I'm missing out on much by avoiding it. The closest I come to 'participating' in PvP is when I successfully come back from losec after a ninja mining trip without encountering another player; I consider those times PvP victories.
2) I don't.
This is a fantastic and honest answer.. thank you! Question though: You most likely have played a game of Monopoly with someone before on the kitchen table. That is PVP in a sense, why is online so different? Is it the bully mentality that comes across?
I play a lot of boardgames (not monopoly though, its engine is broken), and I'm as good at them as my regular gaming group, which enables me to enjoy wins on occasion. With MMO PvP, I'm for some reason unable to attain a level of skill high enough to not just repeatedly be defeated in short order, which obviously isn't much fun. I don'mt play chess with a good friend because he's simply so much better than me that it's pointless. Chess is also a good example of a boardgame I don't really enjoy because it has no narrative, really, and MMO PvP also doesn't have any story, whereas a PvE mission or quest does (however poor they are). I need narrative to enjoy content if it's confrontational, usually. I don't play multiplayer CoD because it's repetitive and has no narrative.
Another aspect which turns me off is the bully/smacktalk/immaturity of a lot of PvPers. Talk of 'harvesting tears' makes me /facepalm tbh. I'm a big fan of comicbooks, and I've never seen Spiderman teabag the Green Goblin whilst saying 'loloHTFU noob u fail!' etc.
PvP all too often looks like 12-yr olds chest-pounding in a sandpit. |
Robert Saint
Playright
96
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Posted - 2013.07.13 06:57:00 -
[38] - Quote
BiscuitMonsterr wrote:
PvP all too often looks like 12-yr olds chest-pounding in a sandpit.
I completely agree, and as a father of 5 kids, it's sad that PVP gamers think ganging up on solo players is winning, and they somehow did something amazing.
It's the publisher fault I feel for giving players so much freedom and not adding a more structured and entertaining PVP experience in game.... at least on some level.
I don't think it's actually possible in this game since it's so deeply convicted to open world only after ten years of the same thing, it's not changing. |
Riot Girl
Thundercats The Initiative.
1332
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Posted - 2013.07.13 06:59:00 -
[39] - Quote
Robert Saint wrote:PVP gamers think ganging up on solo players is winning It is.
Oh god. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
173
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Posted - 2013.07.13 07:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
PvP is any combat or activity in game that leads to combat. Market trades are not really PvP imo because they are consentual. Both side agree to the outcome whereas in true PvP both side are in conflict and the outcome is determined by other factors - ship, skill, luck.
Likewise PvE in null low high is not PvP until a player attacks and transforms it into PvP. Avoiding PvP is not PvP it is the inverse of PvP and while highly difficult and requiring skill at times still not PvP until you fail at it.
My PvP is war decs against alliances, I engage in cat and mouse games, and the occasional hit and run on a member who makes a mistake and becomes separated vulnerable. I use spies, locator agents, research each member often taking weeks of prep. My goal is to kill as many as possible without getting killed. I enjoy the thrill of the hunt and outsmarting the many. |
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Sol Kal'orr
TLSG
16
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Posted - 2013.07.13 09:33:00 -
[41] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Market trades are not really PvP imo because they are consentual. Both side agree to the outcome.
I bought up all the 'Item X' in region and now you have to pay 3x market to buy it. Did you consent to that? Sure you can buy it at the new price or go to another region, but either way, I have cost you ISK or time. Seeing as all you can lose in ship pew is ISK or time, I'd call it PVP.
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Burl en Daire
The Ecstatic Cult of Dionysus Trifectas Syndicate
7
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Posted - 2013.07.13 09:44:00 -
[42] - Quote
Alavaria wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:I'm pretty new to PvP myself. I mostly enjoy skulking around in my SB looking for soft targets or black ops fleets. PvP has taken a new turn in which I shoot torpedos at TEST Alliance Please Ignore (and various pets) structures. I hear it "generates content" for them when they need to show up for the resulting timer.
This is PvP, PSYOPs is an entertaining form of PvP and it works. These types of PvP are not in other games and to me everything is PvP in one form or another. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
174
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Posted - 2013.07.13 09:55:00 -
[43] - Quote
Sol Kal'orr wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Market trades are not really PvP imo because they are consentual. Both side agree to the outcome. I bought up all the 'Item X' in region and now you have to pay 3x market to buy it. Did you consent to that? Sure you can buy it at the new price or go to another region, but either way, I have cost you ISK or time. Seeing as all you can lose in ship pew is ISK or time, I'd call it PVP. You may call it anything you wish. It doesnt change it to that. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1213
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 10:07:00 -
[44] - Quote
anyone who says that any player activity that can be described as being against or opposed to another player is not pvp is objectively wrong |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
174
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Posted - 2013.07.13 11:07:00 -
[45] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:anyone who says that any player activity that can be described as being against or opposed to another player is not pvp is objectively wrong In the context of MMOs its not a correct statement. Since everyone is competing for resources one could then say ice mining is PvP which is obviously fallacious.
The generally accepted definition in the gamer community is combat. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
549
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Posted - 2013.07.13 11:10:00 -
[46] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:In the context of MMOs its not a correct statement. Since everyone is competing for resources one could then say ice mining is PvP which is obviously fallacious.
If I drop a fleet of 50 macks on your ass and mine the ice out from under you, it's most certainly PvP. No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
462
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Posted - 2013.07.13 11:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:anyone who says that any player activity that can be described as being against or opposed to another player is not pvp is objectively wrong In the context of MMOs its not a correct statement. Since everyone is competing for resources one could then say ice mining is PvP which is obviously fallacious. The generally accepted definition in the gamer community is combat.
In the gamer community, yes. In EVE? No. And if you don't think the market counts, then you haven't been on the recieving end of some good market PvP. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
174
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Posted - 2013.07.13 12:17:00 -
[48] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:In the context of MMOs its not a correct statement. Since everyone is competing for resources one could then say ice mining is PvP which is obviously fallacious. If I drop a fleet of 50 macks on your ass and mine the ice out from under you, it's most certainly PvP. No, its not. |
Seven Koskanaiken
Clan Steel Wolves
256
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 12:23:00 -
[49] - Quote
Robert Saint wrote:BiscuitMonsterr wrote:
PvP all too often looks like 12-yr olds chest-pounding in a sandpit.
I completely agree, and as a father of 5 kids, it's sad that PVP gamers think ganging up on solo players is winning, and they somehow did something amazing. It's the publisher fault I feel for giving players so much freedom and not adding a more structured and entertaining PVP experience in game.... at least on some level. I don't think it's actually possible in this game since it's so deeply convicted to open world only after ten years of the same thing, it's not changing.
If you want entertaining pvp then create your own RvB entity with pvp rules that suit you and others who join you. No need to wait for the devs.
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Norm Tempesta
The Konvergent League Sev3rance
38
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Posted - 2013.07.13 12:40:00 -
[50] - Quote
"If I drop a fleet of 50 macks on your ass and mine the ice out from under you, it's most certainly PvP."
Haha, for some reason a fleet of 50 macks 'on my ass" cracks me up. It might cause a wardec if you did it consistently to the wrong corp, but I don't consider it PVP. |
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Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
435
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 13:29:00 -
[51] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:anyone who says that any player activity that can be described as being against or opposed to another player is not pvp is objectively wrong
Considering how PvP is so borked, yeah, I can see how PvPers can consider anything PvP.
I mean they gank. That's the sum of MMO PvP. Everything must be PvP then!
At least in a FPS game there's some objective to fight for. A cause.
Guy asleep at a gatecamp for 8hrs only objective is having a ship when he wakes up.
People are putting too much into PvP being "harder" and more "challenging". Even in WoW you can see the difference of an average raider vs an average PvPer...
Raider -- gemmed/enchanted/stats optimized and farms for better gear to get into HM raids.
PvPer -- No gems. No enchants. Never learned to optimize stats. He only wants to farm BGs. PvE is too hard.
Had an arena partner that was a great example that's even seen in EvE. 15 year-old kid. Naga mouse. Got every macro known programmed on it. Learned all of the tricks to look kewl among peers. But in arena, couldn't close...and he's DPS. Blamed everyone else, would even heal me (a healer) because he wasn't playing as a partner anyway -- but the basic arena strats, too hard to learn. He jumped into the BGs and that's all he knows and how he plays. To this day, does the same thing. All that talk and even macros, couldn't get past 1800 rating.
It's not PvP vs PvE. It's about applying yourself to be the best in things that you do. To have that self-respect to be an asset in a group, not just an ass. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Manfred Hideous
TOHOKU 9.0
43
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Posted - 2013.07.13 13:38:00 -
[52] - Quote
Besides the obvious shoot people answer, I consider the following to be a form of PVP.
Exploration in null owned or claimed by alliances who aren't blue. Anything wormhole. Hauling through null/low. (If you don't agree, try running camps in a T1 hauler; It's fun) Ratting with reds nearby or in system.
Basically, anything where you know you are risking being shot at. If you're afk hauling through highsec, you're probably not PVPing, though you might run into someone who is anyway.
Ganking is PVP as far as I am concerned. It perfectly fits the PlayerVSPlayer model. It might not be *fair* PVP but that doesn't make it less than PVP. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
2215
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 13:40:00 -
[53] - Quote
Manfred Hideous wrote:Besides the obvious shoot people answer, I consider the following to be a form of PVP.
Exploration in null owned or claimed by alliances who aren't blue. Anything wormhole. Hauling through null/low. (If you don't agree, try running camps in a T1 hauler; It's fun) Ratting with reds nearby or in system.
Basically, anything where you know you are risking being shot at. If you're afk hauling through highsec, you're probably not PVPing, though you might run into someone who is anyway.
Ganking is PVP as far as I am concerned. It perfectly fits the PlayerVSPlayer model. It might not be *fair* PVP but that doesn't make it less than PVP.
Beautifully put. Allow me to be frank. You will not like me. You will not like me now, and you will not like men++ a good deal less as we go on. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
435
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Posted - 2013.07.13 13:46:00 -
[54] - Quote
Manfred Hideous wrote:Ganking is PVP as far as I am concerned. It perfectly fits the PlayerVSPlayer model.
Ganking is about the only PvP there is in MMOs, which is the sad state of PvP.
Easy kills. For lazy killers. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
2219
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Posted - 2013.07.13 13:52:00 -
[55] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Manfred Hideous wrote:Ganking is PVP as far as I am concerned. It perfectly fits the PlayerVSPlayer model. Ganking is about the only PvP there is in MMOs, which is the sad state of PvP. Easy kills. For lazy killers.
And the alternative in World of Pandacraft is? Pet battles?
I am sincerely asking, since you are such a know-it-all and foretell prophecies like no one else can. Allow me to be frank. You will not like me. You will not like me now, and you will not like men++ a good deal less as we go on. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
990
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 14:00:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Manfred Hideous wrote:Ganking is PVP as far as I am concerned. It perfectly fits the PlayerVSPlayer model. Ganking is about the only PvP there is in MMOs, which is the sad state of PvP. Easy kills. For lazy killers. oh no look at me. I expect people to go against their human condition and fight honourable battles and not bring ICBMs to their knife fights.
no sir, we can't have that! all fights must be at dawn at a 30 pace distance with flintlock pistols. have at thee! [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Manfred Hideous
TOHOKU 9.0
45
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Posted - 2013.07.13 14:12:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Manfred Hideous wrote:Ganking is PVP as far as I am concerned. It perfectly fits the PlayerVSPlayer model. Ganking is about the only PvP there is in MMOs, which is the sad state of PvP. Easy kills. For lazy killers.
You must never have PVP'ed then. There are two wars going on right now with fleet fights being has and fun by all, or at least the winning side. There are plenty of people mutually shooting each other in space and many more performing in the subjects I listed earlier.
PVP is what you don't want. You wish that CCP would make ganking impossible and nul/low should have Concord. I've said it before; Perhaps this is not the game for you.
I imagine there are other games in space you could find that wouldn't offend your sensibilities. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
2222
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 14:14:00 -
[58] - Quote
Manfred Hideous wrote:
I imagine there are other games in space you could find that wouldn't offend your sensibilities.
Star Trek Online? Allow me to be frank. You will not like me. You will not like me now, and you will not like men++ a good deal less as we go on. |
Solutio Letum
Terpene Conglomerate
145
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Posted - 2013.07.13 14:31:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Manfred Hideous wrote:Ganking is PVP as far as I am concerned. It perfectly fits the PlayerVSPlayer model. Ganking is about the only PvP there is in MMOs, which is the sad state of PvP. Easy kills. For lazy killers.
So if i was to gank your ganking fleet but you also had a gank support fleet waiting incase someone was about the gank your would that make all of us gankers?.......
Ganking is only taking such a uper hand and fisting it into an unsuspecting target, so yes, all of us would technically be gankers. But this is what pvp is about, trying to have a uper hand.
Ganking is only a word that was invented to try to blame the attackers for bringing to much ship or to high of a opposing force. |
Linna Baresi
16
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Posted - 2013.07.13 14:57:00 -
[60] - Quote
Robert Saint wrote:So EVE is a difficult game to figure out, as I try to balance my personal understanding of what Player Vs Player is.
Although, I have my personal view of what PVP, I would very much like to hear what anyone who is brave enough to post in GD.... as would others who read these threads.
Post with your MAIN, otherwise you're missing the point.
1) What is PVP to you? 2) Why do you like it?
1) Player vs Player combat, whether 1v1, in small groups or in large groups, whether in war games or in the open world. I'd like to exclude Arena style combat though... too artificial and static.
2) Fighting humans is entirely different from fighting scripted NPC's, and it's a lot more fun. I like the adrenaline rush of 1v1 and small group PVP. I LOVE outsmarting the other side in large group PVP. Member of <Fated> since 2003 fated.europefreeforum.com |
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