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Colleen McMurphy
United Forces Academy The Lost Accord
0
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Posted - 2013.07.14 21:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
You can make anything in EvE, NOT. Apparently the rules of Eve have exceptions. One of which is Tech II BPO's. I am a new player, I was looking for a different MMO game and stumbbled upon EVE. Eve is a most unusual MMO around and I enjoy playing.
You can buy all the BPO's you want Tech I and Tech II. The problem is you can only buy Tech II from players. Why is that? You can invent TECH II, but only copies. Why is that. Why does CCP act like the Mount Olympus gods, having a lottery every few years to insert more Tech II BPO's. Why can't people invent Tech I and Tech II BPO's from scratch? Yes, I do mean both Tech I and II. Why must the market for TECH II BPO's be controlled by the few of the haves. Why are they for sale in Contracts and not in the market?
Tech I and Tech II BPO should be invented or discovered by learning various skills and invention. The mighty CCP gods should make this a self sustaining market without their lottery, where you can make anything or purchase anything. Think of Discovery where someone could make a base Tech I or II BPO of an item or with certain modifications. Think of a ship BPO with missile launchers preinstalled or other ship variations with modifications or improvements. This would open up a new market where people could take their own builds make a BPO to sell to others.
CCP consider this as an opportunity to expand the the boundries Industry and Manufacturing area where players can control inventions and Blueprints. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
890
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Posted - 2013.07.14 22:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Oh look, it's this thread again...
OP, find the search button, then use it. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1387
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Posted - 2013.07.14 22:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's nice to see you incorporated the feedback you already received and incorporated it into your new post. It speaks highly of you and the maturity of your idea. |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
46
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Posted - 2013.07.14 22:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
The Tech II BPO ltery is no longer in use. The tech II BPOs are only those remnants of the old times. The new way for Tech II items are Tech II BPCs gained by invention or relic and/or data sites. No more lotery. No more Tech II BPOs |
India99
The Companionship Test Alliance Please Ignore
13
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Posted - 2013.07.14 22:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
denied |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1262
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Posted - 2013.07.14 22:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
If memory serves correct, the last T2 BPO purchased was going to require somewhere in the area of 3~4 years of constant production to break even on. That of course assumed that there would be 0 inflation or deflation of everything. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1696
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Posted - 2013.07.14 22:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
More T2 BPOs = lower profits on T2 manufacturing.
It's a supply and demand thing. If you can get (a reasonable number of) T2 BPOs, then you can flood the market.
The only reason T2 manufacturing has a reasonable margin is that it's gated by invention. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
165
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Posted - 2013.07.14 22:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Colleen McMurphy wrote: Why does CCP act like the Mount Olympus gods, having a lottery every few years to insert more Tech II BPO's.
I started playing back during Red Moon Rising, and from what I recall CCP had already put a stop to T2 lotteries. That was approximately 7 years ago, and EVE Online is only just 10 years ago. If my memory is correct your "every few years" statement is very wrong. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1387
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Posted - 2013.07.14 23:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Shereza wrote:Colleen McMurphy wrote: Why does CCP act like the Mount Olympus gods, having a lottery every few years to insert more Tech II BPO's. I started playing back during Red Moon Rising, and from what I recall CCP had already put a stop to T2 lotteries. That was approximately 7 years ago, and EVE Online is only just 10 years ago. If my memory is correct your "every few years" statement is very wrong.
Lottery was still in for RMR. It was removed in Revelations. |
Arya Regnar
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
48
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Posted - 2013.07.14 23:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:If memory serves correct, the last T2 BPO purchased was going to require somewhere in the area of 3~4 years of constant production to break even on. That of course assumed that there would be 0 inflation or deflation of everything. :Economics: This man speaks the truth.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
319
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Posted - 2013.07.15 02:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:If memory serves correct, the last T2 BPO purchased was going to require somewhere in the area of 3~4 years of constant production to break even on. That of course assumed that there would be 0 inflation or deflation of everything. :Economics: This man speaks the truth.
Except he doesn't speak the truth. The figures he speak of refer purely to profit made using the far more efficient (& unable to compete with via invention) production of the researched BPO. However..... Economics includes the value of the Asset, the BPO in this case, which does not loose value as time goes on. Infact it most likely gains value via Eve isk faucets. Meaning even if he produces nothing in 3-4 years he can sell the BPO at a significant profit. So when one takes into account the asset value of the BPO increasing, he is making money left right & centre from the unique advantage the BPO gives, that unless he is prepared to sell (Which then gives him even more money) no-one else can compete with.
If you are going to use economics, use a more complete model, not a childrens version. |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
165
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Posted - 2013.07.15 03:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Shereza wrote:Colleen McMurphy wrote: Why does CCP act like the Mount Olympus gods, having a lottery every few years to insert more Tech II BPO's. I started playing back during Red Moon Rising, and from what I recall CCP had already put a stop to T2 lotteries. That was approximately 7 years ago, and EVE Online is only just 10 years ago. If my memory is correct your "every few years" statement is very wrong. Lottery was still in for RMR. It was removed in Revelations.
Was one going on during the last four months? Started July 22nd, 2006. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3640
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Posted - 2013.07.15 05:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:If memory serves correct, the last T2 BPO purchased was going to require somewhere in the area of 3~4 years of constant production to break even on. That of course assumed that there would be 0 inflation or deflation of everything. :Economics: This man speaks the truth. Except he doesn't speak the truth. The figures he speak of refer purely to profit made using the far more efficient (& unable to compete with via invention) production of the researched BPO. However..... Economics includes the value of the Asset, the BPO in this case, which does not loose value as time goes on. Infact it most likely gains value via Eve isk faucets. Meaning even if he produces nothing in 3-4 years he can sell the BPO at a significant profit. So when one takes into account the asset value of the BPO increasing, he is making money left right & centre from the unique advantage the BPO gives, that unless he is prepared to sell (Which then gives him even more money) no-one else can compete with. If you are going to use economics, use a more complete model, not a childrens version.
If you want to go that way, you have to take into account the opportunity cost of tying all of that capital up in the asset when you could be using it doing something else.
Real profit is (Balance sheet profit)-(Opportunity Costs)
At virtually every level, there are better profits to be found doing something else with your money. So, the profit, including the opportunity cost of capital, of a T2 BPO is usually negative.
T2 BPOs are high end collector's items, nothing more. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
319
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Posted - 2013.07.15 05:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
Except the opportunity cost has to be calculated based on how much free capital the person still has to invest into other projects and if the investment into the T2 BPO actually affects them significantly, which in the case of most people it doesn't, they have far more free isk than they use on the BPO, meaning the opportunity costs are actually minimal if any for the normal T2 BPO owner. And the long term profit is huge. If we have a specific case where the person sinks their entire funds into a single T2 BPO that might be different, but what we have is an obvious case where the rich get richer via the T2 BPO's because the new guy on the block can't afford to sink all his isk into one long term project while the older richer player can. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3640
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Posted - 2013.07.15 05:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Except the opportunity cost has to be calculated based on how much free capital the person still has to invest into other projects and if the investment into the T2 BPO actually affects them significantly, which in the case of most people it doesn't, they have far more free isk than they use on the BPO, meaning the opportunity costs are actually minimal if any for the normal T2 BPO owner. And the long term profit is huge. If we have a specific case where the person sinks their entire funds into a single T2 BPO that might be different, but what we have is an obvious case where the rich get richer via the T2 BPO's because the new guy on the block can't afford to sink all his isk into one long term project while the older richer player can.
Wrong.
Opportunity Cost of Capital has nothing to do with how much Capital you have. All that matters is what you could otherwise do with the capital you're investing in a venture.
Capital does not become free to use just because you have a lot of it.
It may be lower for someone with a lot of capital and little time, but there are still tons of low effort methods of making higher profits on your capital investment than ~5% annually (the common 10 year payback time of a T2 BPO). This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Laendra
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2013.07.15 05:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: If we have a specific case where the person sinks their entire funds into a single T2 BPO that might be different, but what we have is an obvious case where the rich get richer via the T2 BPO's because the new guy on the block can't afford to sink all his isk into one long term project while the older richer player can.
I guess they should have started playing EVE back when the rest of us did, then, huh??? So tired of hearing how new players have it so tough. Bullshit, they have it light years easier than we did back in 2003. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15197
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Posted - 2013.07.15 06:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Laendra wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: If we have a specific case where the person sinks their entire funds into a single T2 BPO that might be different, but what we have is an obvious case where the rich get richer via the T2 BPO's because the new guy on the block can't afford to sink all his isk into one long term project while the older richer player can.
I guess they should have started playing EVE back when the rest of us did, then, huh??? So tired of hearing how new players have it so tough. Bullshit, they have it light years easier than we did back in 2003. Amen sister.
Edit: I wonder how many T2 BPOs are still owned, by those that actually won them?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1263
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Posted - 2013.07.15 06:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Laendra wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: If we have a specific case where the person sinks their entire funds into a single T2 BPO that might be different, but what we have is an obvious case where the rich get richer via the T2 BPO's because the new guy on the block can't afford to sink all his isk into one long term project while the older richer player can.
I guess they should have started playing EVE back when the rest of us did, then, huh??? So tired of hearing how new players have it so tough. Bullshit, they have it light years easier than we did back in 2003. Amen sister. Edit: I wonder how many T2 BPOs are still owned, by those that actually won them? I know of one Hulk BPO. Held by the original owner. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
320
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Posted - 2013.07.15 06:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
Laendra wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: If we have a specific case where the person sinks their entire funds into a single T2 BPO that might be different, but what we have is an obvious case where the rich get richer via the T2 BPO's because the new guy on the block can't afford to sink all his isk into one long term project while the older richer player can.
I guess they should have started playing EVE back when the rest of us did, then, huh??? So tired of hearing how new players have it so tough. Bullshit, they have it light years easier than we did back in 2003. Blah blah bitter vet blah blah. Show me where I said new players have it tough overall. Quit projecting your bitter vet whines onto me. Simply because new players 'have it easier' (Otherwise known as a better designed game overall) does not mean that certain area's of the game do not give inherent advantages to someone simply because they played/did an activity before a certain cut of date, which is not an ideal situation and will turn off new subscribers, it's only a small straw but it can be the last straw. And in many cases these things can be fixed. Sometimes they can't, but pretending that T2 BPO's are 'fair and equal' is a joke. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3642
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Posted - 2013.07.15 07:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Blah blah bitter vet blah blah. Show me where I said new players have it tough overall. Quit projecting your bitter vet whines onto me. Simply because new players 'have it easier' (Otherwise known as a better designed game overall) does not mean that certain area's of the game do not give inherent advantages to someone simply because they played/did an activity before a certain cut of date, which is not an ideal situation and will turn off new subscribers, it's only a small straw but it can be the last straw. And in many cases these things can be fixed. Sometimes they can't, but pretending that T2 BPO's are 'fair and equal' is a joke.
For any amount of ISK invested, Invention offers far better return than T2 BPOs.
The only people who can reasonably justify buying one (not selling one is equivalent) for reasons other than collectors value are people with both trillions of ISK and an inability to put that ISK to essentially any other productive use. (The last Scimitar BPO I saw sold for around a quarter trillion ISK, and shows a profit (@ 440/44, which is a ridiculous level of research) of 395 million ISK/month or 4.7 Billion ISK/year, or 1.88% annual simple interest).
T2 BPOs do not cause any problems for anyone not bitten by a bad jealousy bug.
They do not provide any "inherent" advantage as they're traded on the market. If it's such a large advantage, go buy one. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
319
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Posted - 2013.07.15 07:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
See above for why the 'Go buy one' argument is invalid, since it increases the profit ratio for the 'current' owner significantly if they sell. It is not a 'jealousy' question. It is straight up an issue of competitiveness. In most other area's of EVE it is possible to catch up by specialising skills. T2 BPO's are a grandfathered legacy item that is not. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
2235
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Posted - 2013.07.15 10:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:See above for why the 'Go buy one' argument is invalid, since it increases the profit ratio for the 'current' owner significantly if they sell. It is not a 'jealousy' question. It is straight up an issue of competitiveness. In most other area's of EVE it is possible to catch up by specialising skills. T2 BPO's are a grandfathered legacy item that is not.
It is a matter of fact jealousy. Your argument is that, as a new player, you cannot compete on equal grounds and therefore it is unfair that some players won the T2 BPO lottery all those years ago and that is what you are literally crying over. Allow me to be frank. You will not like me. You will not like me now, and you will not like men++ a good deal less as we go on. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3645
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Posted - 2013.07.15 10:18:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:See above for why the 'Go buy one' argument is invalid, since it increases the profit ratio for the 'current' owner significantly if they sell. It is not a 'jealousy' question. It is straight up an issue of competitiveness. In most other area's of EVE it is possible to catch up by specialising skills. T2 BPO's are a grandfathered legacy item that is not.
Nope. The return is still the pitiful 1-5% per year. You're pretending that: 1. Opportunity costs don't exist and haven't existed for at least 7 years 2. Selling capital assets is "profit" 3. The T2 BPO lottery did not require significant effort to compete in
And in production of T2 items, you can produce more T2 items in less time for less capital invested through invention. If that's not catching up, I don't know what is. A Scimitar BPO can make 30 Scimitars per month. When I make Scimitars, I can make 10 Scimitars in a day using invented BPCs. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1263
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Posted - 2013.07.15 10:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:See above for why the 'Go buy one' argument is invalid, since it increases the profit ratio for the 'current' owner significantly if they sell. It is not a 'jealousy' question. It is straight up an issue of competitiveness. In most other area's of EVE it is possible to catch up by specialising skills. T2 BPO's are a grandfathered legacy item that is not. Nope. The return is still the pitiful 1-5% per year. You're pretending that: 1. Opportunity costs don't exist and haven't existed for at least 7 years 2. Selling capital assets is "profit" 3. The T2 BPO lottery did not require significant effort to compete in And in production of T2 items, you can produce more T2 items in less time for less capital invested through invention. If that's not catching up, I don't know what is. A Scimitar BPO can make 30 Scimitars per month. When I make Scimitars, I can make 10 Scimitars in a day using invented BPCs. You take your facts and go elsewhere, you are countering his pitiful rage argument with them. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
India99
The Companionship Test Alliance Please Ignore
13
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Posted - 2013.07.15 12:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Blah blah bitter vet blah blah. Show me where I said new players have it tough overall. Quit projecting your bitter vet whines onto me. .
There-¦s nobody whining but you, mate
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