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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Claire Voyant
10
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Posted - 2011.10.26 17:46:00 -
[61] - Quote
One year is simply too short a time frame. When I was mining I remember getting 120 isk per cubic meter, now it is closer to 100. Megathrons were 100M, now they are 77M. Yes manufacturing margins are smaller, but that is probably a reflection of the glut of BPOs, not rising mineral prices. I don't know which data you are referring to from Block's website, but I doubt that it's going to tell me anything different. And you can't use CCP's CPI because they include PLEX prices as a significant portion so it is worthless.
Meanwhile, many of us remember buying 90-day GTCs for less than what a 30-day PLEX goes for today. Over the long term the value of most eve goods have fallen relative to isk, but isk has fallen even faster compared with real life money. The obvious conclusion is that the value of everything in Eve, goods and isk, is declining. |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
11
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Posted - 2011.10.26 20:57:00 -
[62] - Quote
Yes, one year is too short, about 2-3 years ago I purchased MRD for I think 0.91 ISK, when they where originally valued Block made them 1.0 ISK each. Buying them at 0.91 ea means minerals where cheap. Today they are worth 1.25-1.26 ISK each.
You can see here the entire year of MRD Value for 2010... 2010 Chart
You can see it was as low as 0.80, and before the end of the year was up to 1.15 p/u. At the moment Block has them at 1.25-1.26 according to the Exchange.
This isn't irrefutable evidence to say the least, while the formula and set quantity of the mineral basket has not changed, the pricing strategy block uses may have. Which would impact MRD Value. But I can't help but see a trend over a 22 month time frame. Mineral basket is slowly getting more expensive, yet prices of large ticket items like Battleships have slowly declined.
This is why I take Item vs ISK vs PLEX relationships with a grain of salt, what effects each of their values is made up of different variables. |
AureoLion
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
21
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Posted - 2011.10.26 22:04:00 -
[63] - Quote
Actually, PLEX inflates the isk. Jita trades, daily, something around 2300 PLEXs: which turns in nearly 1t isk traded a day. The taxes on 1000b isk traded vary wildly in the 2-20b range, depending if it's a direct sell or a brokered sell, and on skills/standings. We can assume it's somewhere around 8b isk a day, or about 250b isk a month sinked into nothingness. Now, it isn't that much, but it's still something. It also actually ties up some ISK, removing it from the pool. The "tied up" isk is probably in the range of half a trillion or so. In "tied up", i refer to isk in escrow, and to actual isk being pooled from someone to buy PLEXs: That isk won't sink into nothingness, but it's tied up. |
Barakach
R-ISK EVE Trade Consortium
0
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Posted - 2011.10.26 22:48:00 -
[64] - Quote
Since PLEX does not create ISK, this means ISK is only exchanged. The more often money changes hands, the more value it has.
PLEX adds values to ISK.
If you're worried about an ISK sink, check out Incursions. |
Date Rotsuda
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.10.27 10:56:00 -
[65] - Quote
It is not devaluation ( devaluation is active ) , It is inflation. You need more ISK to buy X item.
Simply law of supply and demand. More players , more buyers , less sellers => inflation.
Plex just redistribute the cash. Plex is submissive to the law of supply and demand. |
Shirah Yuri
Kassiopeia Nova Ascension
7
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Posted - 2011.10.27 11:08:00 -
[66] - Quote
And once more it shows: Everything has been said. But not by everyone yet. |
Woo Glin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
159
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Posted - 2011.10.27 13:42:00 -
[67] - Quote
Radelix Cisko wrote:Woo Glin wrote:Insurance is an isk sink. Until the ship goes boom and the platinum coverage was purchased. Not sure of the numbers but I believe it is a sizable percentage above cost of the hull depending on if it was purchased at a competitive price. Now replacing the hull and equipment would be a sink since there are the transaction taxes involved.
lol |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
28
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Posted - 2011.10.27 14:42:00 -
[68] - Quote
Insurance introduces new isk into the game. yes, you lose some to the cost, but you get more out of it. The only way it would be a sink, is if your ships lasted more than 36 weeks or so. (cost of ship/cost for platinum *12 weeks) and you ended up paying more for insurance, than for the ship in the first place.
Yes, /minerals/ are destroyed. Yes, modules are destroyed. But those aren't ISK.
Miner mines, then makes a ship with them. Miner sells ship to PvPer. Miner now has X isk. PvPer has a ship. PVPer insures ship for Y ISK, which costs them Z ISK. PvPer has their ship destroyed in a glorious battle. Miner still has X isk. PvPer now has Y isk. No-one has a ship, until the miner gets back to work.
Unless the cumulative Y, is greater than the Z, ISK enters the game through insurance. |
Claire Voyant
10
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Posted - 2011.10.27 15:57:00 -
[69] - Quote
SencneS wrote:Yes, one year is too short, about 2-3 years ago I purchased MRD for I think 0.91 ISK, when they where originally valued Block made them 1.0 ISK each. Buying them at 0.91 ea means minerals where cheap. Today they are worth 1.25-1.26 ISK each. You can see here the entire year of MRD Value for 2010... 2010 ChartYou can see it was as low as 0.80, and before the end of the year was up to 1.15 p/u. At the moment Block has them at 1.25-1.26 according to the Exchange. This isn't irrefutable evidence to say the least, while the formula and set quantity of the mineral basket has not changed, the pricing strategy block uses may have. Which would impact MRD Value. But I can't help but see a trend over a 22 month time frame. Mineral basket is slowly getting more expensive, yet prices of large ticket items like Battleships have slowly declined. This is why I take Item vs ISK vs PLEX relationships with a grain of salt, what effects each of their values is made up of different variables. MRD is overweighted in Nocxium, over two times the amount it should be based on capital and battleship material requirements. Compare that graph with the Nocxium price graph and you will see your problem. Any mineral index calculation that is based on Jita sales volumes, or some other subjective method, is useless for long-term trends. You would be better off with the original 4096:1024:256:64:16:4:1 ratio and maybe tweaking it a little after careful study of some of the newer BPOs. |
Claire Voyant
10
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Posted - 2011.10.27 16:01:00 -
[70] - Quote
Shirah Yuri wrote:And once more it shows: Everything has been said. But not by everyone yet. But no one before you said that. And no one before me had pointed that out. And since I've pointed that out, I think everything has been said. |
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Elise DarkStar
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
109
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Posted - 2011.10.27 16:13:00 -
[71] - Quote
What's an ISK sink? |
Claire Voyant
11
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Posted - 2011.10.27 16:39:00 -
[72] - Quote
Elise DarkStar wrote:What's an ISK sink? Not sure if serious, but something that removes isk from the game. Skillbooks and BPOs are the two biggest. Station taxes and fees are much smaller I think. There was a dev blog or QEN on the subject.
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Elise DarkStar
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
109
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Posted - 2011.10.27 16:43:00 -
[73] - Quote
Claire Voyant wrote:Not sure if serious, but something that removes isk from the game. Skillbooks and BPOs are the two biggest. Station taxes and fees are much smaller I think. There was a dev blog or QEN on the subject.
Aren't those ISK faucets? I thought insurance was an ISK sink?
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
151
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Posted - 2011.10.27 16:56:00 -
[74] - Quote
The simple rule:
If the ISK moves from your wallet into an NPC wallet, it is an ISK sink. If the ISK moves from the NPC's wallet into your wallet, it is an ISK faucet.
Broker fees, sales tax, contract fees, LP store items that require ISK, skillbook purchases, station slot fees, office rentals, PI import/export tariffs and the cost of insuring a ship are all sinks.
Rat bounties, mission rewards paid in ISK, insurance payouts are all ISK faucets. |
Claire Voyant
12
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Posted - 2011.10.27 17:01:00 -
[75] - Quote
Elise DarkStar wrote:Claire Voyant wrote:Not sure if serious, but something that removes isk from the game. Skillbooks and BPOs are the two biggest. Station taxes and fees are much smaller I think. There was a dev blog or QEN on the subject.
Aren't those ISK faucets? I thought insurance was an ISK sink? Sit on my knee little girl, and I will tell you a story. There are two types of pilots: careful pilots and careless pilots. A good little pilot makes sure he pays his insurance on time and is always careful to stay out of trouble when he goes out to play. If he is lucky, in a few months he will get a letter from the insurance company telling him he has been very good and he has to pay his insurance again. For good little pilots like that, insurance is a sink.
But for bad little pilots, like yourself, when you get into trouble you come crying to your mummy and she gives you some money to buy a new ship. So for bad little pilots like you, insurance is a faucet. The only problem is that there are far more bad pilots than good pilots, so that is why we have too much isk. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
58
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Posted - 2011.10.27 19:12:00 -
[76] - Quote
Claire Voyant wrote: You would be better off with the original 4096:1024:256:64:16:4:1 ratio and maybe tweaking it a little after careful study of some of the newer BPOs.
Yep, I would agree. It is the only non-arbitrary gauge.
BPOs generally correlate with the ore distributions across the four empires, so would caution using them too much to 'tweek' the non-arbitary rule. |
Loney
CyberDyne R-D
2
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Posted - 2011.10.27 20:50:00 -
[77] - Quote
Quote: What would happen if NPC wallets actually had balances? As in, Concord pays out bounties for ratting, but that reduces their isk account balance. A portion of market taxes flows into Concord's wallet, replenishing it. As their wallet balance changes, bounties paid out either increase or decrease dynamically to compensate. This is the best thing ive read all week... CCP need to make this happen! |
Woo Glin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
159
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Posted - 2011.10.27 20:53:00 -
[78] - Quote
Insurance takes money from players, and doesn't pay out the entire cost to build the ship in either base mineral cost or potential opportunity costs due to lost manufacturing slots, and is thus an isk sink. Saying that it is an isk faucet simply because you get isk ignores the deficit resulting from both the cost of the insurance itself and the gap between payout and real ship cost. |
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
8
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Posted - 2011.10.27 22:30:00 -
[79] - Quote
Woo Glin wrote:Insurance takes money from players, and doesn't pay out the entire cost to build the ship in either base mineral cost or potential opportunity costs due to lost manufacturing slots, and is thus an isk sink. Saying that it is an isk faucet simply because you get isk ignores the deficit resulting from both the cost of the insurance itself and the gap between payout and real ship cost.
Insurance pays out more ISK than it costs, therefore it is a net increase in the money supply.
The ISK you pay out to another player for ship or minerals remain in the money supply (less modest taxes).
Therefore there is net increase in the money supply.
Faucets and sinks measured are in relation to money supply not your wallet.
If you don't believe posters here that have told you otherwise, then read the QEN (Page 19)
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Date Rotsuda
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.10.29 11:50:00 -
[80] - Quote
Insurances should be managed by players and not "npc" ? |
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Nyla Skin
Pew Pew Corp Behold.
15
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Posted - 2011.10.29 11:53:00 -
[81] - Quote
We need more things like hulkageddon and current goon ice coup to make isk valuable again. |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
8
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Posted - 2011.10.29 15:34:00 -
[82] - Quote
Woo Glin wrote:Insurance takes money from players, and doesn't pay out the entire cost to build the ship in either base mineral cost or potential opportunity costs due to lost manufacturing slots, and is thus an isk sink. Saying that it is an isk faucet simply because you get isk ignores the deficit resulting from both the cost of the insurance itself and the gap between payout and real ship cost.
Base mineral cost doesn't measure an outflow of isk from the game.
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Woo Glin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
160
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Posted - 2011.10.29 16:59:00 -
[83] - Quote
Wyke Mossari wrote:Woo Glin wrote:Insurance takes money from players, and doesn't pay out the entire cost to build the ship in either base mineral cost or potential opportunity costs due to lost manufacturing slots, and is thus an isk sink. Saying that it is an isk faucet simply because you get isk ignores the deficit resulting from both the cost of the insurance itself and the gap between payout and real ship cost. Insurance pays out more ISK than it costs, therefore it is a net increase in the money supply. The ISK you pay out to another player for ship or minerals remain in the money supply (less modest taxes). Therefore there is net increase in the money supply. Faucets and sinks measured are in relation to money supply not your wallet. If you don't believe posters here that have told you otherwise, then read the QEN (Page 19)
Damnit dude I had high hopes for this one. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
32
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Posted - 2011.10.29 17:25:00 -
[84] - Quote
Date Rotsuda wrote:Insurances should be managed by players and not "npc" ?
Only an idiot would do insurance in Eve. Or the majority of players would become uninsurable.
'You've had /how/ many ships blown up in the last 12 weeks?' |
Claire Voyant
12
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Posted - 2011.10.29 20:09:00 -
[85] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Only an idiot would do insurance in Eve.' Hey, some of those idiots are our friends. We're the only ones allowed to call them idiots.
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JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2011.10.30 02:01:00 -
[86] - Quote
Meh gods OK Econ nerd hat on. Isk is a commodity like any other commodity in the game. It's value is a relation between the amount of Isk in the game and the amount of everything else. So the only thing that can devalue isk is the introduction of more isk. PLEX just changes the location of assets not their value. So how does isk enter the game? Bounties and mission rewards pretty much. Everything you buy or sell just transitions existent isk from player to player. PLEX transitions real world money into isk but has no affect on the available isk. How does isk leave the game? Skillbook purchases, BPO purchases and LP purchases (the ones that include isk, tags are another matter). If I am missing one point it out because this is actually kind of interesting to my twisted little brain. Since there aer a lot more bounties being earned than skills, BPOs, Faction items being purchased inflation is pretty much pre-destined. To constrict the currency market (err reverse inflation, make there be less iskies) there would have to be a new way for isk to leave the game. Something NPCs sell that players want. If (and this is a big if) you want to halt inflation. |
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2011.10.30 02:04:00 -
[87] - Quote
Brainfart, and destruction of assets, That also removes isk from the economy. Nothing else I can think og ATM. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
32
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Posted - 2011.10.30 02:19:00 -
[88] - Quote
Destruction of assets doesn't remove ISK from the economy. It removes Value, but not ISK. Assets just move ISK around. You can't turn ISK into assets, except via NPCs. |
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2011.10.30 05:05:00 -
[89] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Destruction of assets doesn't remove ISK from the economy. It removes Value, but not ISK. Assets just move ISK around. You can't turn ISK into assets, except via NPCs. double brainfart, quite right Steve if anything it should increase inflation ad it introduces isk (insurance) and removes assets. So actually Hulkmageddon is inflationary. Can anybody think of any other ways Iskies leave the game??? |
Levija Saplina
Supremacy Inc. Not Found.
3
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Posted - 2011.10.30 07:49:00 -
[90] - Quote
The biggest thing that removes isk from the game is actually taxes.
Taxes on anything sold and bought in the market and everything else that involves the use of NPC services, including the fees that people have to pay for station offices, sovereignty rents, etc. Taxes on contracts also take out a nice amount of isk everyday from the system.
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