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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
33
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Posted - 2011.10.30 15:14:00 -
[91] - Quote
Something that might be interesting, would be instead of being able to move currency electronically, between regions/empires/other block, you had to physically move it.
Or some kind of taxation on an electronic move that you didn't get on the physical. Course, with the physical, you can have it blown up. Makes some isk actually destroyable (or capturable. I'd suggest some kind of fence mechanism to take it. so you lose a chunk of the value.) |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
62
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Posted - 2011.10.30 15:51:00 -
[92] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Something that might be interesting, would be instead of being able to move currency electronically, between regions/empires/other block, you had to physically move it.
Or some kind of taxation on an electronic move that you didn't get on the physical. Course, with the physical, you can have it blown up. Makes some isk actually destroyable (or capturable. I'd suggest some kind of fence mechanism to take it. so you lose a chunk of the value.)
There was a discussion in General about having something like "gold". May want to find that thread and throw this idea in there, may have some potential. |
Pinaculus
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2011.10.30 17:11:00 -
[93] - Quote
While it would go against the grain of the founding principal of the game universe, CCP could easily control inflation/deflation/bubbles without anyone being the wiser. If they wanted to remove ISK from the game, they just need to pick an item in the middle of a price spike (high demand) and sell a bunch of them to Buy Order. They can theoretically create as many of any widget as they want from nothing and the ISK would just disappear from EVE altogether. In addition, they could choose as many items as they wanted as often as they wanted.
::Edit: Removed crappy Real World example::
The scary thing is, they could already be doing this and we'd have no idea. |
Prince Kobol
62
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Posted - 2011.10.30 17:52:00 -
[94] - Quote
PLEX is a RMT's wet dream come true.
It enabled RMT's to buy PLEX with stolen credit card / account details.
This in turns allows them to create disposable accounts with no traceability.
Also when people do pay for isk from 3rd sites, instead of giving isk in game, they now trade PLEX.
Removing PLEX would most likely hurt RMT more then any other action. |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
9
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Posted - 2011.11.02 01:10:00 -
[95] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:
Removing PLEX would most likely hurt RMT more then any other action.
No it wouldn't. The reason is that CCP now competes in the RMT market. And legal traders have a big advantage over illegal ones. Among other things, the price you pay for isk is capped by the legal price for a PLEX.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Go Petition Blizzard
219
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Posted - 2011.11.02 01:29:00 -
[96] - Quote
Right now there are just too many sources for isk creation in the game, and not enough isk sinks. Incursions are a big example of isk being printed right into wallets with no comparable sink. All the extra isk plus the increased demand for shiny PvE ships has driven up certain faction mod prices considerably.
What I'd like to see is a gradual decrease in the payouts of various PVE activities (I don't want to give the impression I'm singling out incursions, because the problem existed before Incursion) and an increase in whatever would make sense. It wouldn't hurt for there to be a regular fee to maintain a corporation, increasing with the size of the corp. if the corp isn't self-sufficient, they should review their business model. |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
20
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Posted - 2011.11.02 09:32:00 -
[97] - Quote
Dust514 appears to be designed as an isk sink. The COs are just the start. CCP employs economists, I can only asume that these were smart enough to see this coming and have already made suggestions on how to solve it. They have statistical information we as players can only guess about.
Inflation doesn't necessarily mean that Eve is broken. For CCP what is important is the number of players. After Incarna apparantly the number of players went down and CCP was forced to take drastic measures.
Note that PLEX prices play an important role in the pricing of player manufactured items as PLEXes are typically used by players who play a role in the manufactoring chain as manufactures, miners etc. Even lvl 4 mission runners play an important role here as long as they gather loot and salvage. (Most Incursion players however just collect ISK and LP and leave the loot and salvage to decay. This is one of the points where Incursions are broken: this can be solved by reducing bounties and adding more valuable salvage/loot like t2 salvage.)
Since ISK sinks and faucets work at constant prices this is an important tool to ensure that inflation doesn't run out of control. Over time the Incursion factor will be accounted for and prices will settle at new, although higher levels.
CCP made several PLEX offers aimed at keeping the PLEX prices from rising and thus trying to keep players on board. So far these efforts failed. The question is to what length CCP is willing to go in order to keep the production chain going and keep the player count up. There are two important deadlines for CCP: the Winter expansion and the release of Dust. I expect CCP will go to great length to keep the players on board until then. And they might take unprecedented steps to do so like selling PLEX for ISK to remove ISK from the game and keep PLEX affordable. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
262
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Posted - 2011.11.02 13:19:00 -
[98] - Quote
POCOs, as currently designed are not an ISK sink other then:
- The fee paid to the LP store (20M ISK for the BPC) - Fees paid in broker fees and sales tax - Fees paid to manufacture items in a station's factory slot
The vast majority of the cost of setting up a POCO is going to be the materials, purchased from other players. The 20M ISK for the BPC is about 20-25% of the estimated market value of a POCO.
(Unless the ISK moves from a player's wallet into an NPC's wallet, it is not an ISK sink. And ISK moving from a NPC wallet into the player's wallet is an ISK faucet.) |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers Black Thorne Alliance
30
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Posted - 2011.11.02 13:28:00 -
[99] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:POCOs, as currently designed are not an ISK sink other then:
- The fee paid to the LP store (20M ISK for the BPC) - Fees paid in broker fees and sales tax - Fees paid to manufacture items in a station's factory slot
The vast majority of the cost of setting up a POCO is going to be the materials, purchased from other players. The 20M ISK for the BPC is about 20-25% of the estimated market value of a POCO.
(Unless the ISK moves from a player's wallet into an NPC's wallet, it is not an ISK sink. And ISK moving from a NPC wallet into the player's wallet is an ISK faucet.)
There is a subtle effect which you may see.
If pilots increase the amounts of materials they launch into space (where the fee is effectively removed from the game) then in an indirect way POCOs will increase the volume of ISK flowing out through that ISK sink. |
Claire Voyant
13
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Posted - 2011.11.02 15:51:00 -
[100] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Since ISK sinks and faucets work at constant prices this is an important tool to ensure that inflation doesn't run out of control. Over time the Incursion factor will be accounted for and prices will settle at new, although higher levels. It is difficult the separate the wheat from the chaff (the wise from the crazy) in this thread, but this is one point that needs to be reiterated and expanded on.
If you have a game with multiple activities, some of which involve isk sources and some isk sinks, players will choose whatever activity is more worthwhile to them. If there was inflation, the activities with isk sources would become less rewarding and the activities with isk sinks would become more rewarding (or at least cheaper) thus inflation would tend to self-correct.
The problem with Eve is not so much the lack of isk sinks, but the number and variety of them. Skill books and BPOs are one-time purchases. Sales tax and brokers fees are percentages and scale with inflation so they are useless for that purpose. LP store purchases require LP which add just as much (or more) isk in the process of generating them. Station frees are trivial and pretty much just the cost of doing business if you want to make stuff.
Increased PI tariffs and POCO BPOs may be a sign that CCP is headed in the right direction, but I don't know how much of an impact it will have.
I would like to see more isk sinks introduced, even on a small scale just to see that CCP has the right idea, but it goes against the philosophy of having players make everything in the sand box. If we make everything, where does the isk go? In short, we need more ideas for: Time + Isk + Stuff => Better Stuff
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March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
33
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Posted - 2011.11.02 16:19:00 -
[101] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Date Rotsuda wrote:Insurances should be managed by players and not "npc" ? Only an idiot would do insurance in Eve. Or the majority of players would become uninsurable. 'You've had /how/ many ships blown up in the last 12 weeks?' 2-3 ares's and 1 incursus.
what's wrong with insurance for my Thanny, Mach, Nightmare and other REAL ships? |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
20
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Posted - 2011.11.02 18:07:00 -
[102] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:POCOs, as currently designed are not an ISK sink other then:
- The fee paid to the LP store (20M ISK for the BPC) - Fees paid in broker fees and sales tax - Fees paid to manufacture items in a station's factory slot
The vast majority of the cost of setting up a POCO is going to be the materials, purchased from other players. The 20M ISK for the BPC is about 20-25% of the estimated market value of a POCO.
(Unless the ISK moves from a player's wallet into an NPC's wallet, it is not an ISK sink. And ISK moving from a NPC wallet into the player's wallet is an ISK faucet.) You forget one sink. People will have to move a lot of their PI investments and people outside highsec will have to invest elsewhere whenever someone takes their CO and decides to cut them out. |
Kara Books
Hedion University Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2011.11.09 23:30:00 -
[103] - Quote
When bots where not a part of the game then that was true, the reality of the matter is, BOTS are gonna keep working towards chasing away people from mining profession, by severely crippling mineral value (what they are now).
Back then i guess the prices where 10-15 times that of what they are now forcing people to go play solo doing missions.
Its not the people, its the BOTS that have completely decimated the world of eve online, just like those foreigners coming in and taking your jobs, Just like the bosses fireing you and hiring cheep labor (running bots themselves and stop buying your rightfully mined minerals). |
The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
95
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Posted - 2011.11.09 23:41:00 -
[104] - Quote
Why are there still more than 4 pages worth of replies on this thread? The person who first replied to the OP everything that the OP needs to know:
"PLEX does not devalue ISK (in terms of currency devaluation)."
The OP's point is null. |
The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
95
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Posted - 2011.11.09 23:43:00 -
[105] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:When bots where not a part of the game then that was true, the reality of the matter is, BOTS are gonna keep working towards chasing away people from mining profession, by severely crippling mineral value (what they are now).
Back then i guess the prices where 10-15 times that of what they are now forcing people to go play solo doing missions.
Its not the people, its the BOTS that have completely decimated the world of eve online, just like those foreigners coming in and taking your jobs, Just like the bosses fireing you and hiring cheep labor (running bots themselves and stop buying your rightfully mined minerals).
What kind of crack talk is this? Do you not realize that in order to stay competitive in this globalized economy, it makes absolute sense to rely on overseas labor to reduce input costs?
Kinda sad to see folks like this mumbling nonsense on Market Discussion forum. I thought folks here were somewhat more enlightened than the average Joe.
My sincere apologies if any of your family members' factory jobs were taken by the immigrants from the emerging markets. They could use this time to go to college and be immune to structural unemployment. |
Loney
CyberDyne R-D
3
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Posted - 2011.11.10 02:14:00 -
[106] - Quote
The Antiquarian wrote:Blah blah blah...
QUIT DRESSING LIKE ME! |
Ariana DeSoto
Howling Penguin Research Laboratories
0
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Posted - 2011.11.10 02:27:00 -
[107] - Quote
Loney wrote:The Antiquarian wrote:Blah blah blah... QUIT DRESSING LIKE ME!
You both are really ugly women dressing like a dude??!!?? |
The Antiquarian
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
95
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Posted - 2011.11.10 02:30:00 -
[108] - Quote
Ariana DeSoto wrote:Loney wrote:The Antiquarian wrote:Blah blah blah... QUIT DRESSING LIKE ME! You both are really ugly women dressing like a dude??!!??
Better than an ugly man dressing like Aunt Jemima!!!!!! |
Gealla
Capital Storm. Shadow of xXDEATHXx
20
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Posted - 2011.11.10 03:33:00 -
[109] - Quote
Shirah Yuri wrote:The value of ISK is basically determined by the amount of wares available on the market and the amount of isk available for market transactions. PLEX themselves don't really add anything to the market or take anything form it per se. One player gets ISK for it, another player pays with the ISK he made somehow... a zero sum game.
However, there might be a SMALL effect since PLEX is sold by players who want ISK to use on the market. The buyers usually have plenty of ISK and would likely not use them to buy anything on the market anytime soon. So, it might be argued that PLEX in fact makes ISK available on the market that would be rotting on some over-filled account otherwise.
This, I invited a friend who joined, I got a free Plex, sold it , put the isk towards a carrier, that's about 1.2 bil total gone back into the market which I wouldn't normally have spent if it wasn't for that plex (well maybe i would have but a long way down the track)
Now I'll no doubt loose that carrier soon, as is the nature, of the game and then I'll go buy another one...because once you go thanny you can't go back...... so even more isk back on the market.
IMO there's nothing wrong with newbies selling plex for isk, as most of them will lose the ships and the wealth, sitting long unused in a veterans account, is getting re-distributed through the market.
As for the Time=value thing, while true, I don't have that much time to invest anymore... not sure many folks do |
Ariel Dawn
F9X
61
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Posted - 2011.11.10 04:28:00 -
[110] - Quote
ISK has been devaluing ages prior to PLEX being introduced to EVE. Just search the prices of GTCs via eve-search for a few years back, or how T2 BPOs were selling for relatively low prices in billions despite printing tons of ISK (nowadays they sell for multiples more and have not even a fraction of their ISK return as they used to manufacturing from them).
The vast majority of EVE's population (say ~85%) are bears sitting in high-sec grinding missions and generating ISK from bounties and payouts. Of course the value is going to go down. |
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Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2011.11.10 11:08:00 -
[111] - Quote
Killgor wrote:The devaluation of the isk IMO is what is hurting the game currently, mainly/solely driven by the introduction of Plex. The ability to spend cold hard cash and receive plex, which in turn can be sold in game for isk has really really devalued its worth. So, instead of having to work together towards a common goal you can go out and buy 10-20 Plexes and just buy what you need. Items that used to take weeks or months to save up for and work hard for now can simply be purchased. It takes the need away from teamwork and allows people to be more solo or less involved with the game itself. And over time, this can cause a certain amount of isolationism and then boredom sets in. Acquiring wealth in Eve used to take a long time but now it can simply be purchased with out of game money and converted. I think that is what is driving the older players away from the game. The game has lost some of its "pure" allure. You used to have to work very hard to get what you need but now if you have a good bankroll you can simply just buy your way to wealth or fame. I still love the game but just a bit less and have a different view. I think if you could go back in time to say 2004-2005 and take a look at now most people would be disappointed in how the economy works.
Dude I totally agree with this, however at the same time, mining doesn't provide incomes to people who (if they trained for mining) wanted to make isk through in-game mechanics.
It produces half the income with double or more of the risk to ratting or even missioning - I mean hulks are prime target even in empire. It is the most boring task in the game without any real payoff.
Then you have botters constantly driving down the prices.
PLEX seems the only way for these people.
Mining needs a complete overhaul.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
70
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Posted - 2011.11.10 11:25:00 -
[112] - Quote
The Antiquarian wrote:Why are there still more than 4 pages worth of replies on this thread?
Because economics is fun! |
Tomak dalTomaki
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.11.11 02:53:00 -
[113] - Quote
Killgor wrote:The devaluation of the isk IMO is what is hurting the game currently, mainly/solely driven by the introduction of Plex. The ability to spend cold hard cash and receive plex, which in turn can be sold in game for isk has really really devalued its worth. So, instead of having to work together towards a common goal you can go out and buy 10-20 Plexes and just buy what you need. Items that used to take weeks or months to save up for and work hard for now can simply be purchased. It takes the need away from teamwork and allows people to be more solo or less involved with the game itself. And over time, this can cause a certain amount of isolationism and then boredom sets in. Acquiring wealth in Eve used to take a long time but now it can simply be purchased with out of game money and converted. I think that is what is driving the older players away from the game. The game has lost some of its "pure" allure. You used to have to work very hard to get what you need but now if you have a good bankroll you can simply just buy your way to wealth or fame. I still love the game but just a bit less and have a different view. I think if you could go back in time to say 2004-2005 and take a look at now most people would be disappointed in how the economy works.
Well, as one who paid real money for PLEX and then sold the PLEX for ISK -- I have a job and a life, and I don't have 12 frigging hours a day to grind away making ISK. EVE is a *game*, not a second job.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
284
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Posted - 2011.11.11 03:13:00 -
[114] - Quote
CCP has been steadily adding ways to make larger quantities of isk without introducing corresponding isk sinks. Highsec needs to become more expensive to live in somehow.
(and I live in highsec). |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
284
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Posted - 2011.11.11 03:18:00 -
[115] - Quote
Tomak dalTomaki wrote:Well, as one who paid real money for PLEX and then sold the PLEX for ISK -- I have a job and a life, and I don't have 12 frigging hours a day to grind away making ISK. EVE is a *game*, not a second job.
Not only that, but PLEX rely on other players already having isk with which to purchase the PLEX. The OP has a very poor understanding of economics if he thinks the game time commodity is the source of inflation.
What would happen if I bought 40,000 PLEX and dumped them on the market? PLEX would get cheap. Isk values would stay roughly the same, and certain other items might actually go up in price as people who purchase PLEX would have more available cash for spending on other stuff.
The problem is the amount of isk being generated by PVE content. |
Sephiroth CloneIIV
Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK
18
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Posted - 2011.11.11 16:28:00 -
[116] - Quote
People who are not pay to win people still work for isk, and also work so they can play for free.
Effort and brains are not being reduced in doing the game, just transferred to other players.
But true dat about inflation, too much isk farming from isk sources is creating inflation. Though it could also be the factor of more people poor so they want to farm to play. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
54
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Posted - 2011.11.11 23:58:00 -
[117] - Quote
It could be, the OP is trying to say that the ability to use plex to get a large amount of ISK without hard work, is making people value it less. Not monetary value, but how they feel about it. |
GreenSeed
5
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Posted - 2011.11.12 01:59:00 -
[118] - Quote
MeestaPenni wrote:Tippia wrote:Killgor wrote:The ability to spend cold hard cash and receive plex, which in turn can be sold in game for isk has really really devalued its worth. Now, you do understand that it's the amount of ISK that devalues the ISK in that case, not the PLEX? No. The PLEX does in fact devalue ISK. Where it used to take several weeks, months, or a lucky officer spawn to accumulate a cool billion in ISK...now it can be done in as little time as it takes me to buy a couple of GTCs and convert. The time value this game used to have doesn't mean jackshit anymore.
You donGÇÖt know the meaning of the word, do you?
to keep the story short, only creating ISK devaluates it, and isk can only be created via bounties/mission rewards be it on agent missions or incursions.
ThereGÇÖs absolutely NO way to create isk on this game apart from that. None. buying one plex for RL money and then selling it for ISK DoesnGÇÖt create ISK, having 30 PI planets running 24/7 doesnGÇÖt create a single ISK, and not even 300 mining bots create a single ISK, regardless of how many days they spend mining. They just extract commodities which are then exchanged for ISK.
In fact, ALL those activities actually destroy ISK, plex sales are taxed, PI is taxed and good ol mining uses ships and modules that were taxed on production, and commodities sold ARE TAXED.
Again, only bounties and rewards generate ISK, anything else is just isk changing hands. so, is it "inflation" the problem? Absolutely NOT. ThereGÇÖs some of it, but that not the real problem.
the problem is simple, YOU canGÇÖt pay plex prices. ppl that sell plex DONT care if you canGÇÖt, because other ppl WILL pay 450, and will pay 500, and will also eventually pay 550 for plex. Now, this has nothing to do with inflation, this has EVERYTHING to do with a the fiction of a free market, when in fact its a free sellers market. They, the plex sellers DONT CARE. They will list plex for 500m and when all the 450 sell orders get bought ppl will have no option but to buy em for 500 or lose the subscription.
Now, THIS is your problem, not inflation. Your problem is that a limited comodity, one you depend on, has its price set not on supply/demand equilibrium, but on how desperate are you. And now, i welcome you to 21st century capitalism.
now this situation is also CCP's problem, because ccp cant set a ceiling for plex because ppl wonGÇÖt pay money for it unless that ceiling is adjusted/indexed to what they perceive to be the inflation (which often is just that typical old lady syndrome "oh in the good ol days i could buy a meal for a nickel.") nor can they introduce plex on the market and compete with sellers. So the solution is actually even more simple.
DO NOTHING.
i would never advocate for liberalism, yet given the rules of the problem at hand, thereGÇÖs no way to interfere without destroying both the process and its negative effect. plex is what it is, an alternative to actually paying for a subscription.
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Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
14
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Posted - 2011.11.12 04:49:00 -
[119] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:
the problem is simple, YOU canGÇÖt pay plex prices. ppl that sell plex DONT care if you canGÇÖt, because other ppl WILL pay 450, and will pay 500, and will also eventually pay 550 for plex. Now, this has nothing to do with inflation, this has EVERYTHING to do with a the fiction of a free market, when in fact its a free sellers market. They, the plex sellers DONT CARE. They will list plex for 500m and when all the 450 sell orders get bought ppl will have no option but to buy em for 500 or lose the subscription.
A very inelastic market can still be a free market. Elasticity of supply and demand is irrelevant to whether a market is "free" or not. As far as the inelasticity of demand goes, keep in mind that there are both many players with multiple alts (who can drop some of their alts and still play the game) and the ability to pay directly in real world currency for an account. |
Barakach
R-ISK EVE Trade Consortium
2
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Posted - 2011.11.12 16:50:00 -
[120] - Quote
ISK represents time. As more isk enters the system, there is more isk to represent the same amount of time. isk gets devalued.
The market determines the value of an individual's time. Over time, some people will accumulate work wealth. The amount of wealth one has is based on their market value of time. ISK always has a ratio to time, so as more isk enters the system, the market will attempt to keep the ratios of each person's wealth the same.
When someone buys plex and inserts plex into the system, they do not devalue the isk, they devalue the plex. Plex is just a form of currency that is purchasable with real world time instead in-game time. As more plex enters the system, real world time gets devalued, but it does not devalue the isk. Actually, plex creates value. It allows for better liquidity of current isk, which allows the same amount of isk to represent more time.
ISK only has as much value as the services it can be trader for. The easier it can be traded for a given service, the more value it has. Services take time to operate, so just like time, they form natural ratios with other types of services.
A given services takes time, but its value is dictated by the market through supply and demand. The less of a given services, the more its value, the more of a given service, the less its value. The more types of services available, the more things money may be traded for. This increases liquidity of isk and increases its value.
I have no idea if any of this is true, but this is how I think of it. So personally, I think plex adds value to isk, just like adding any other type of service adds value.
I would love to have an economist chime in on stuff. |
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