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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1192
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Posted - 2013.07.15 20:40:00 -
[31] - Quote
I'll pass the idea up the chain. Frankly, command is already irritated by this whole thing, so I'm not sure what kind of buy-in I could get.
Who would make a good third-party and be willing to do the tour? |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1567
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Posted - 2013.07.15 20:42:00 -
[32] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:However, gallentean swines used to call slavery whatever they don't understand, just to attack and kill Caldari citizens.
Ok I will almost agree with you here. Looks like Tali is just looking for cheap political propaganda points in the sadly usual fashion, which is as you said: Slapping a "slavery" label on anything that didn't come from the Roden Approved PseudoDemocracy. The Federation loves to that, naturally, as it lets their government spoon feed a false sense of casus belli in their wars of aggression & conquest. Fooling themselves into thinking that they're "liberating" the people that they, themselves, are enslaving (oh sorry, "Offering new lives in the glorious Federation workplace ... whether they like it or not").
Yes, the Empire has used very similar arguments in the past during own age of expansion. This is not a denial. Just pointing out that the Federation does the exact same thing but then lies about it to their own people. The Empire is not afraid to call slavery slavery. The Federation, on the other hand, likes to peel that label off their own "indentured workforce" and slap it onto other people's instead. Pure classic Federation hypocrisy at it's finest.
From what I've read, it looks like the State is doing a fair & impartial job of handling their POWs. I'd rather be captured by them than plenty of other groups I could name. I'm just glad that my mother was Amarrian, because being, in the Republic's words, a "mongrel halfbreed" I was not eligible for the "Pureblood Warriors Motherhood Program" when they kidnapped me all those years ago. I can't say the same for all the other young women they abducted. And then there's the Blood Raiders, Sansha's Nation, along with various petty nullsec bandit kingdoms that make even them look sane & humanitarian in comparison. New Eden can be a very sick, sick place indeed.
All things considered, being a POW to Pyre looks like a nice vacation compared to the seemingly endless depths of cruelty & depravity that mankind is capable of. Ammatar - Matari by blood, Ammarian by the Grace of God. |
Steffanie Saissore
The Order of the Ebon Rose
94
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Posted - 2013.07.15 21:56:00 -
[33] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I'll pass the idea up the chain. Frankly, command is already irritated by this whole thing, so I'm not sure what kind of buy-in I could get.
Who would make a good third-party and be willing to do the tour?
Pieter, I would offer myself as an un-biased third party willing to take the tour. I am not associated with Pyre nor am allied with the corporation and I have no allegiances within Khanid. Ser Steffanie Saissore, Knight Commander (Errant), Order of the Ebon Rose
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Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
418
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Posted - 2013.07.15 22:33:00 -
[34] - Quote
There won't be tours at this point. We're talking about high-security detention centres and not town fairs, after all, and it does not matter how much information is revealed - it will never be enough or credible for some, especially not those who like to see evil ghosts at every turn of the road. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
648
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Posted - 2013.07.15 22:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
I would suspect any Sisters-affiliated group would serve best in this role. Failing that, a moderate Federation agency; this is to say, someone other than Soter, or similarly-minded Gallente. Mind, any inspection of Pyre facilities would best be compared with an inspection of comparable Federal facilities to ensure equal review.
Ideally, the treatment of POWs will be equivalent between the nations involved.
As an uninvolved party, it sounds as if the Combine is engaged in a good-faith effort to ensure the fair treatment of its prisoners.
Ms. Kernher, what you suggest is tantamount to a war crime. When engaged in rescue activities, one is required to make a good faith effort to save as many survivors as possible regardless of their affiliation. To do otherwise is to knowingly abandon others to death; while one does not directly take their life, one ensures their death. We could argue situations where there are hazards, whether continued combat or environmental hazards. Still, despite this, the Combine and other forces in the warzone are duty-bound to offer aid to the crews of destroyed warships whenever possible. To do otherwise is to treat the foe as an animal, and to become one with one's abandonment of duty. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
455
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Posted - 2013.07.15 22:54:00 -
[36] - Quote
Makkal Hanaya wrote:While I appreciate the transparency, an agent of Pyre telling me how well Pyre treats its POWs isn't as meaningful as a non-affiliated, or even a Republic or Federation affiliated, person telling me the same.
Whilst I may appreciate your concern, this report presented by Operative Tuulinen was a courtesy extended and largesse I have granted since I am at present under no legal obligations to do otherwise.
If it is deemed insufficient by some to act as placation of doubts, then that quite frankly is not my own particular concern at present. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1858
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Posted - 2013.07.15 23:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
If, say, Ishuk-Raata arranged the development of labor programs for these POWs down in Syndicate, and Pyre were to transfer them to us... would this satisfy? Perhaps it would offer a more tasteful alternative, for PR purposes.
Do contact us if you're interested, Chairwoman. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |
Ralyn Longs
Blackwater Swat. Against ALL Authorities
0
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Posted - 2013.07.16 00:38:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:So now the State turns to slavery to 'offset' costs of a system that was not needed.
Shocking.
I suppose it was only a matter of time.
My dear pilot, if you think this slavery then I suggest you open your eyes.
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Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
983
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Posted - 2013.07.16 00:40:00 -
[39] - Quote
Welcome to Khanid!
I'm pleased to see Pyre Falcon Defence Combine enjoying our hospitality and making some profits at the same time.
My offer is still on the table to take all of those pesky POW's off your hands. I promise plenty of fun for everyone when in my custody.
Until that happens though, any of you crossing the border into Kingdom lowsec will be flayed. One and only warning! *smiles*
Sabik now, Sabik forever |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1192
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Posted - 2013.07.16 01:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:Welcome to Khanid!
I'm pleased to see Pyre Falcon Defence Combine enjoying our hospitality and making some profits at the same time.
My offer is still on the table to take all of those pesky POW's off your hands. I promise plenty of fun for everyone when in my custody.
Until that happens though, any of you crossing the border into Kingdom lowsec will be flayed. One and only warning! *smiles*
Only if the sluggish tinselled barges you fly can catch us, My Lady. |
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Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
983
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Posted - 2013.07.16 01:41:00 -
[41] - Quote
Fishing is our especiality, Mr. Tuulinen!
Sabik now, Sabik forever |
James Syagrius
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly
470
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Posted - 2013.07.16 02:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
If I may ask you to clarify one point.
Will the product of the prisoners be used to support the States war effort? GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
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Erys Charantes
University of Caille Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2013.07.16 02:34:00 -
[43] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I'll pass the idea up the chain. Frankly, command is already irritated by this whole thing, so I'm not sure what kind of buy-in I could get.
Who would make a good third-party and be willing to do the tour?
Pieter, I would be honored to act as a neutral party... Anyone who knows me at all, know full well I have no ties to larger factions, politically or militarily, and don't give one whit for either sides aspirations. Perhaps as one of several, I volunteer to deliver a neutral party report, with the Chairwomans permission. |
Vikarion
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
549
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Posted - 2013.07.16 03:28:00 -
[44] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:And why was the initial policy of simply returning POWs to their home should they not be wanted criminals not effective in solving this? It set a good example.
Because the State and its soldiers are not generally stupid. The Federation suffers from a chronic manpower shortage in its military forces. Giving back trained forces, especially when we receive none in return, puts us at a disadvantage. And, despite your maniacal focus on how awesome the Federation is, we do not share your view, and are not obliged to try to lose the war to make all your dreams come true.
And, furthermore, it's a fine thing, a wonderful thing, to hear a Federation supporter upset about the treatment of POWs. Why, if she weren't a total and complete hypocrite, she might have even bothered to advocate better treatment of Caldari POWs, whose mistreatment at the hands of the Federation has become notorious, to the point that they have their own SCC cargo entry. Oh, and, of course, contrary to convention, the Gallente Federation makes every effort to terminate any prisoners of war who might possibly be rescued. Just try rescuing some from one of their Black Rise internment camps.
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ColonelNick
Providence Guard Templis Dragonaors
23
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Posted - 2013.07.16 03:30:00 -
[45] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:If I may ask you to clarify one point.
Will the product of the prisoners be used to support the States war effort?
I'm assuming the Mineral and Ore production to produce warships or modules. Primary industry after all.
Also, Pieter, these Guri's that are giving you trouble should be thankful. We have a less... accommodating ... policy on our prisoners of war here in the Guard. They would be wise to remember there are worse people out there (me) who have power over incarcerated enemy combatants.
Personally, i find the security camera footage very entertaining.
Also, these Gallenteans in particular obviously haven't seen what their Matari buddies across the border do to the Amarrians.
Anyway, just thought I'd share that.
Colonelnick, CEO Providence Guard. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1194
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Posted - 2013.07.16 03:38:00 -
[46] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:If I may ask you to clarify one point.
Will the product of the prisoners be used to support the States war effort?
Whilst the Ore, Biofuels and other commodities produced by the Labour Contracts enter the Khanid market and thence to any one of a number endusers, the money from these contracts goes into the books of Pyre Falcon Defence Combine.
At present the money merely starts to amortise the startup costs for the penal infrastructure, but eventually it will be used to help fund operations. That being said the answer is that, yes, it supports our war effort - however it is sufficiently indirect that it does not break any regulations concerning forcing a POW to work against his former colleagues. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1194
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Posted - 2013.07.16 03:40:00 -
[47] - Quote
Erys Charantes wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I'll pass the idea up the chain. Frankly, command is already irritated by this whole thing, so I'm not sure what kind of buy-in I could get.
Who would make a good third-party and be willing to do the tour? Pieter, I would be honored to act as a neutral party... Anyone who knows me at all, know full well I have no ties to larger factions, politically or militarily, and don't give one whit for either sides aspirations. Perhaps as one of several, I volunteer to deliver a neutral party report, with the Chairwomans permission.
Whilst I would consider you a fine candidate, the Chairwoman and our COO have both indicated that the report I gave is the sole concession that Pyre Falcon is willing to take at this time. I'd invite any of you to contact our officers directly should you have further comments to make. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1194
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 03:41:00 -
[48] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:Fishing is our especiality, Mr. Tuulinen!
I regret that I have no business taking me into that part of space at present. I've always wanted to name my Crow "The One That Got Away." |
Rioghal Morgan
Full Artificial Intelligence
21
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Posted - 2013.07.16 03:52:00 -
[49] - Quote
If I recall correctly, when one of my corp mates lost a fight with a member of Pyre while they were deployed out our way, the survivors of his crew were returned to our home station after we arranged a trade of prisoners taken from another engagement. A fair and honorable deal if I've ever seen one.
While like any Gallentean, I'm less than thrilled to hear of anyone being given over to slavery, I would never call the Combine itself slavers. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1194
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 04:01:00 -
[50] - Quote
Rioghal Morgan wrote:If I recall correctly, when one of my corp mates lost a fight with a member of Pyre while they were deployed out our way, the survivors of his crew were returned to our home station after we arranged a trade of prisoners taken from another engagement. A fair and honorable deal if I've ever seen one.
While like any Gallentean, I'm less than thrilled to hear of anyone being given over to slavery, I would never call the Combine itself slavers.
I remember seeing paperwork on that transfer. Similar arrangements are still entirely possible - simply contact me with details of the number of POWs you have and the IDs of any of yours that we've reported in custody. |
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Rioghal Morgan
Full Artificial Intelligence
21
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Posted - 2013.07.16 04:18:00 -
[51] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I remember seeing paperwork on that transfer. Similar arrangements are still entirely possible - simply contact me with details of the number of POWs you have and the IDs of any of yours that we've reported in custody.
I thank you for that. Fortunately, neither I nor my corporation hold any particular antipathy towards the State so I have some hope that we may not cross swords too often. The majority of State-allied pilots in my area seem to fly single-manned frigates anyway so the amount of prisoners taken from vessels allied to your corporation are negligible. I will keep the offer in mind should any of my guys run into yours however. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1194
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 04:42:00 -
[52] - Quote
See people? It's that easy. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1679
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Posted - 2013.07.16 09:27:00 -
[53] - Quote
The pilots who are objecting to this need to understand one thing - there are many, many more capsuleers who would consider the taking and processing of POWs to be a waste of their time.
I were a Baseline crew member, I'd choose being on a well-supervised and humane work gang over slow death in a disintegrating wreck every time. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
495
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Posted - 2013.07.16 11:04:00 -
[54] - Quote
My offer stands. I can take from you prisoners of only gallentean origin and help you process them free of charge. No questions asked. No documents provided. Transfer of prisoners will be conducted through anonymous contractor. |
Erys Charantes
University of Caille Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2013.07.16 11:24:00 -
[55] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Erys Charantes wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I'll pass the idea up the chain. Frankly, command is already irritated by this whole thing, so I'm not sure what kind of buy-in I could get.
Who would make a good third-party and be willing to do the tour? Pieter, I would be honored to act as a neutral party... Anyone who knows me at all, know full well I have no ties to larger factions, politically or militarily, and don't give one whit for either sides aspirations. Perhaps as one of several, I volunteer to deliver a neutral party report, with the Chairwomans permission. Whilst I would consider you a fine candidate, the Chairwoman and our COO have both indicated that the report I gave is the sole concession that Pyre Falcon is willing to take at this time. I'd invite any of you to contact our officers directly should you have further comments to make.
It's fine Pieter. The offer, made to you, stands. Just let me know. |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
2620
|
Posted - 2013.07.16 13:55:00 -
[56] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:My offer stands. I can take from you prisoners of only gallentean origin and help you process them free of charge. No questions asked. No documents provided. Transfer of prisoners will be conducted through anonymous contractor.
Stay edgy Diana.
On another note, I don't get why this is even a public thing? Let them do what they do. If you REALLY don't like it, grab your guns and load your ammo, it's that simple.
On ANOTHER anther note, I happily volunteer to tour these facilities as a respected, intellectual member of the capsuleer community. Very respected.
Yes.
(No really, I volunteer if you change your mind).
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
495
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Posted - 2013.07.16 14:30:00 -
[57] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Diana Kim wrote:My offer stands. I can take from you prisoners of only gallentean origin and help you process them free of charge. No questions asked. No documents provided. Transfer of prisoners will be conducted through anonymous contractor. Stay edgy Diana. On another note, I don't get why this is even a public thing? Let them do what they do. If you REALLY don't like it, grab your guns and load your ammo, it's that simple. Because this is business offer. Even if they don't accept it, maybe someone else who wants to get rid of gallentean POWs would like to use my service. This is pure business, Mr. Anslo. I don't need to "grab my guns etc etc" for this. You either take it or no.
Anslo wrote: On ANOTHER anther note, I happily volunteer to tour these facilities as a respected, intellectual member of the capsuleer community. Very respected.
Yes.
(No really, I volunteer if you change your mind).
Why would I provide you with this possibility? This won't be recreational facility, go entertain yourself touring in other places, gallentean. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1685
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Posted - 2013.07.16 14:30:00 -
[58] - Quote
I'm surprised that the labour market is reportedly so much more lucrative in the Kingdom, given that they buy into the Amarrian bloc's slave economy. One would have thought POWs operating under Caldari law wouldn't be a very attractive option to them when they could just buy more slaves.
Besides, with KK in need of an economic boost it would make more sense to me to put that workforce to use at home rather than abroad. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
733
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Posted - 2013.07.16 14:45:00 -
[59] - Quote
As much as people just love to claim otherwise, not everyone in the Kingdom - or the Empire, for that matter - is legally permitted to own or employ slaves, Verin. There's a lot of time-consuming (and expensive, in some cases) paperwork that needs to be done, and even then, those slaves are typically considered to be on something approximating a lease to the business-owner.
There are plenty of companies in the area that would benefit from having low-cost workers available to them as a result of Pyre Falcon's facilities. It's quicker, less dependent on local politics, and likely cheaper for the business-owners due to Pyre and those leasing them the land for their facilities footing some of the living costs. Morwen Lagann Director, Tyrathlion Interstellar |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1685
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Posted - 2013.07.16 14:56:00 -
[60] - Quote
Consider me educated. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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