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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Jerick Ludhowe
trolllolcorp
480
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 22:10:00 -
[121] - Quote
so, how are these new improved medium long range weapons comparing to close range weapons in terms of dps? I've not gotten a chance to plug in new variables to eft yet. |
Sarkelias Anophius
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
16
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 22:17:00 -
[122] - Quote
Rough estimate based on previous fittings puts the Deimos at a healthy 500+ dps @ 16+40ish, rail Proteus at > 700dps @ 22+29. All figures depend on tracking/range mods and my memory, of course. I can't be bothered to use beams so I dunno about those. |
Silver Getsuga
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 22:31:00 -
[123] - Quote
Arkon Olacar wrote:You are wrong. Your numbers are about as disjointed from reality as mittens 'war updates'. For a start, good luck fitting 4 BCSs on a navy drake and still fitting a tank. But even if you did, you are looking at 362 dps at 94km with faction, 424 dps at 71km with fury. For a navy harbinger, you are looking at 522dps at 23km with scorch, 239 dps at 48km with faction radio and beams, 332 dps at 54km with aurora. Either way, both your dps and your max range is superior with hml, and you don't have to account for tracking. This is probably one of these cases where the great unwashed of Eve hear pubbie mcmissionrunner bitching about their nerfed drake (still), and actually believe them when they make great sweeping claims on the dps and range of heavy missiles that have no relation to actual facts. Edit: You were talking about normal drake not navy drake. For the standard drake, you are looking at 407 dps at 63km with faction, and 478 dps at 47km with fury. This of course locks you into kinetic damage, other damage types are worse. Faction still does more dps at a longer range than the longest ranged beam ammo, and fury does twice the dps of the ammo type that operates at the same max range. tl:dr heavy missiles are fine, shut up.
Missile don't have to account for tracking yes. And guns don't need to account for sig size (as far as I know, I'm new to the game). Also tracking is irrelevant the moment rats start to chase you at a straight line when you out of their optimal range. Not saying HM are weak, just pointing out you're mittaning you facts too. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1146
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 22:49:00 -
[124] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:I'm Down wrote:I really don't understand why you guys do not attack the Tracking formula for the much larger problem of no scaling at range. Because changing numbers in the database is a tweak. Changing the tracking formula is a massive overhaul. Same reason for not overhauling POSes and any number of other "why don't you JUST.." changes.
is the tracking formula that hard coded? i know parts of it have been added over the years and the missile one has been overhauled more then once... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Hybrid tech I ammo boost |
elitatwo
Congregatio
88
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 23:01:00 -
[125] - Quote
I need to apologize in advance for so very rude comments I won't hold back any more. I am very sorry!
For the love of any gods out there, someone shut those people and their dps babbeling up-
And for all people that don't know the difference between short and long range weapons, here is a hint:
- Yo need to stay as far away as you can and deal much much hurt on ze boat you want to make booom so they gez no chance to close in and killz yo. - Missiles don't haz alpha, just volleys after volley - Any rof bonus to artilleries just screams OP - Artillery iz alpha gun, noes deeps gun
And now a little game with numbers.
Let's take ma Moa with ze 250mm t2 railguns and lets look at ze current stats with ze level V skills an no implant ****: - duration (mean rate of fire) 3.574 seconds - optimal range with tech 1 antimatter M 18km - falloff 15km - tracking 0,03019 (radians) - 187,2 powergrid - 31,5 cpu
Now let's apply the proosed buff to ze numbers: - duration (means rate of fire) 3.5734s - 15% (.53601) = 3,03739 seconds
With smaller guns the number even decreases, so the lower you get the lower the duration decrease. I make an educated guess and say it will hardly hurt the capacitor much.
Now let's have a look of the alpha damage of ma Moa with a full rack of 250mm rails.
5x 250mm loaded with tech1 antimatter M deals 1071hp damage Applying 15% damage to them would make 1.231,65hp alpha.
So chill people, don't ever look at some percentages of a value and judge right away.
Now another experiment with a Zealot (pun implied....) and tech2 heavy beam lasers.
For all that people screaming op, just stop posting
Okay back to the Zealot and heavy pulse laser + 2 heat sinks 5x tech2 heavy beam lasers with tech1 multifrequency deal an insane amount of 681hp alpha damage oh ma gawd... Taking 681 + 25% makes 851,25hp alpha damage (still using multifrequncy)
So again chill people!!
I can see this going in the right direction and maybe we could tone the powergrid demands for heavy beam lasers somewhat down would go a long way. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1105
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 23:19:00 -
[126] - Quote
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:Rough estimate based on previous fittings puts the Deimos at a healthy 500+ dps @ 16+40ish, rail Proteus at > 700dps @ 22+29. All figures depend on tracking/range mods and my memory, of course. I can't be bothered to use beams so I dunno about those.
Toss the numbers for the Proteus out the door. I figured out the same numbers until I realized I forgot that CCP plans on destroying the T3 ships, so no way those numbers will exist for more than a flicker of game time. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Silver Getsuga
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 23:26:00 -
[127] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Sarkelias Anophius wrote:Rough estimate based on previous fittings puts the Deimos at a healthy 500+ dps @ 16+40ish, rail Proteus at > 700dps @ 22+29. All figures depend on tracking/range mods and my memory, of course. I can't be bothered to use beams so I dunno about those. Toss the numbers for the Proteus out the door. I figured out the same numbers until I realized I forgot that CCP plans on destroying the T3 ships, so no way those numbers will exist for more than a flicker of game time.
Can't decide what to level next T3 cruisers or battleships. T3 cruisers now seem like risky time investment. |
Bishop Xsi
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 00:31:00 -
[128] - Quote
So where do I get the new EFT data files? |
Perihelion Olenard
174
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 01:35:00 -
[129] - Quote
I definitely like this. I want to try a rail ferox. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1106
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 01:35:00 -
[130] - Quote
Silver Getsuga wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Sarkelias Anophius wrote:Rough estimate based on previous fittings puts the Deimos at a healthy 500+ dps @ 16+40ish, rail Proteus at > 700dps @ 22+29. All figures depend on tracking/range mods and my memory, of course. I can't be bothered to use beams so I dunno about those. Toss the numbers for the Proteus out the door. I figured out the same numbers until I realized I forgot that CCP plans on destroying the T3 ships, so no way those numbers will exist for more than a flicker of game time. Can't decide what to level next T3 cruisers or battleships. T3 cruisers now seem like risky time investment.
Go with the BS's. You have a known quantity there.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
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masternerdguy
nul-li-fy Nulli Secunda
1241
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 01:44:00 -
[131] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Let's go over the rails checklist.
Shield ships: Tank - check, Speed - check, Range - check, Tracking - check, DPS - check. Done ship it!
Armor ships: Tank - not if you want to fit the guns, Speed - not if you want a tank, Range - checkish, Tracking - not if you want range, DPS - not if you want that tank, but then again if you wanted a tank you can't fit the guns. Ship it? Sure why not. CCP Rise pities the fool that flies armor.
When are we going to see Armor 2.0?
Buffer armor tank ships are grossly stronger than their shield tanked counterparts in most pvp situations that don't involve kiting.
It's because buffer shield tanking typically makes your sig radius gigantic causing you to absorb huge amounts of extra damage, requires mid slots which can no longer be used for tackle / EWAR / etc, and still gives you less EHP than your armor counterpart.
Armor tanking has a low sig radius, mitigating lots of damage, and has mid slots free for utility stuff (not to mention the wide variety of tough armor tanked ships with powerful scram and web bonuses), and still has higher EHP than the shield tanking counterpart.
And you do plenty of damage. Not that damage matters really, in fleets of 500 vs 500 dps is often pretty irrelevant.
When ravens are consistently owning megas with their epic tank, speed, and dps, then we can talk about buffing armor ships more. When nullsec alliances stop using AHACs because they're getting owned by shield HACs, then we can talk some more.
Armor is currently OP, if anything. Sorry your specific fitting is bad, but the ships are excellent. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
James Potkukelkka
Fistful of Finns Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 07:22:00 -
[132] - Quote
So the damage buff works against rats too? Does the rats using rails do more damage too? |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
24
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 07:26:00 -
[133] - Quote
Silver Getsuga wrote:Arkon Olacar wrote:You are wrong. Your numbers are about as disjointed from reality as mittens 'war updates'. For a start, good luck fitting 4 BCSs on a navy drake and still fitting a tank. But even if you did, you are looking at 362 dps at 94km with faction, 424 dps at 71km with fury. For a navy harbinger, you are looking at 522dps at 23km with scorch, 239 dps at 48km with faction radio and beams, 332 dps at 54km with aurora. Either way, both your dps and your max range is superior with hml, and you don't have to account for tracking. This is probably one of these cases where the great unwashed of Eve hear pubbie mcmissionrunner bitching about their nerfed drake (still), and actually believe them when they make great sweeping claims on the dps and range of heavy missiles that have no relation to actual facts. Edit: You were talking about normal drake not navy drake. For the standard drake, you are looking at 407 dps at 63km with faction, and 478 dps at 47km with fury. This of course locks you into kinetic damage, other damage types are worse. Faction still does more dps at a longer range than the longest ranged beam ammo, and fury does twice the dps of the ammo type that operates at the same max range. tl:dr heavy missiles are fine, shut up. Missiles don't have to account for tracking yes. And guns don't need to account for sig size (as far as I know, I'm new to the game). Also tracking is irrelevant the moment rats start to chase you at a straight line when you out of their optimal range. Not saying HM are weak, just pointing out you're mittaning your facts too.
Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT8VqVcLDqc
It will open your eyes. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
170
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 08:04:00 -
[134] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Medium Rails (all sizes and metas): +15% Rate of Fire +15% Damage Multiplier -15% Tracking Speed
Corresponing cap use reduction?
At present an Omen with Heavy Beams will burn about 10.5 GJ per shot while a Thorax with 250mm Rails burns 10. (According to the values listed in the EVElopedia). The base ROF on the two turrets is the same 6s (the Omen than has an ROF bonus of course). The ROF gain of new rails puts a significant, additional cap pressure on the ships using them - pushing them closer to Lasers with ammo use... |
Silver Getsuga
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 08:08:00 -
[135] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Silver Getsuga wrote:
Missiles don't have to account for tracking yes. And guns don't need to account for sig size (as far as I know, I'm new to the game). Also tracking is irrelevant the moment rats start to chase you at a straight line when you out of their optimal range. Not saying HM are weak, just pointing out you're mittaning your facts too.
Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT8VqVcLDqcIt will open your eyes.
Ah yes, I see, thank you. Didn't know that guns tracking is affected by sig size. But still NPC frigates approach you in a straight line, aren't they? |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
733
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 09:01:00 -
[136] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:One of the discussions we had with the CSM... And they didn't question the viability of bringing medium weapons against normal fleets that are not comprised of a single Talwar doing a Benny Hill or the fact that you used a Talwar with its MWD sig reduction in the first place?
Were they there at all? Asleep perhaps? Drunk?
Powercreep is irrelevant as you are free to say no when (not if, players are greedy!) cries go out to boost large over the top.
|
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
261
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 09:12:00 -
[137] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:CCP Rise wrote: Medium Rails (all sizes and metas): +15% Rate of Fire +15% Damage Multiplier -15% Tracking Speed
Corresponing cap use reduction? At present an Omen with Heavy Beams will burn about 10.5 GJ per shot while a Thorax with 250mm Rails burns 10. (According to the values listed in the EVElopedia). The base ROF on the two turrets is the same 6s (the Omen than has an ROF bonus of course). The ROF gain of new rails puts a significant, additional cap pressure on the ships using them - pushing them closer to Lasers with ammo use...
Welcome to the world of the Amarr where you pay heavily for the tiniest advantage which turns out not to be an advantage at all. Tiericide is tiers by another name. |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
24
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 09:57:00 -
[138] - Quote
Silver Getsuga wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Silver Getsuga wrote:
Missiles don't have to account for tracking yes. And guns don't need to account for sig size (as far as I know, I'm new to the game). Also tracking is irrelevant the moment rats start to chase you at a straight line when you out of their optimal range. Not saying HM are weak, just pointing out you're mittaning your facts too.
Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT8VqVcLDqcIt will open your eyes. Ah yes, I see, thank you. Didn't know that guns tracking is affected by sig size. But still NPC frigates approach you in a straight line, aren't they?
Yes, because AI in this game is programmed to do that. That's exactly same thing what happens every time you hit orbit button if you have to approach.
I still don't see how missiles are broken. |
E'lyna Mis Dimaloun
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
24
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 10:33:00 -
[139] - Quote
CCP #1: so, no one uses medium rails/beams. We can fix the tracking formula to account for signature radius more correctly, so that people will have a reason to fit them.
CCP #2: too much work. Just buff the DPS.
CCP #1: maybe we should instead look at fitting requirements, cap usage, tech 2 ammo...?
CCP #2: BUFF THE DPS IT WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING.
|
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
442
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 10:41:00 -
[140] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:mmkay so why are all the comparisons ignoring T2 ammo? ..... who uses antimatter on rails? .. anyone?
T2 ammo needs a buff on long range guns .. -75% range makes it unusable...
Stil works pretty well when enemy Forced you into close range. |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
442
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 10:43:00 -
[141] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Windman Advena wrote:Rails and Beams DPS will be about 40% better then Artillery DPS. Give Artillery 20% RoF bonus. Artillery DPS will be still 25% less then Beam or Rails DPS When you get 6k alpha out of a T2 arty fit you get about 2.5 from a dps fit with other guns and alpha > to DPS everyday, if you can't kill it with a single volley bring more arties. Those are already the reason why beams and rails are total crap atm.
Just shut up please. Alpha is NOT > DPS every day. Alpha is > DPS only if ALpha is high enough to kill the enemy. When you are fightign larger ships.. DPS >>>>> ALPHA. |
Mur'zad
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
3
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 11:03:00 -
[142] - Quote
Would like to see some form of reduction in the cap usage of lasers too.. Try fitting any beam ship and not run into cap issues. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
442
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 11:10:00 -
[143] - Quote
Mur'zad wrote:Would like to see some form of reduction in the cap usage of lasers too.. Try fitting any beam ship and not run into cap issues.
Well I do not have cap issues with my Zealot or my Legion. That does not mean I never get low on cap, just that when I get there I made reasonable work from that cap. |
Silver Getsuga
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 11:15:00 -
[144] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Silver Getsuga wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Silver Getsuga wrote:
Missiles don't have to account for tracking yes. And guns don't need to account for sig size (as far as I know, I'm new to the game). Also tracking is irrelevant the moment rats start to chase you at a straight line when you out of their optimal range. Not saying HM are weak, just pointing out you're mittaning your facts too.
Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT8VqVcLDqcIt will open your eyes. Ah yes, I see, thank you. Didn't know that guns tracking is affected by sig size. But still NPC frigates approach you in a straight line, aren't they? Yes, because AI in this game is programmed to do that. That's exactly same thing what happens every time you hit orbit button if you have to approach. I still don't see how missiles are broken.
Not saying they're. But they look weak in particular case. Low sig (up to and including cruisers) fast ( >500 m/s) ships that swarm L3s. On paper mid-to-long range turrets on a kiting ship look better than heavy missiles.
Even with precision missiles. _Right now_ precision missiles on slow (<300 m/s) targets look about the same as rails. Post buff rails will do ~33% better. Range wise rails do better too.
That makes Drake look bad. It'll not be effective in L3s (due to dps) and L4s (due to tank/damage trade off). Maybe some kind of damage application bonus would do in theory (instead of range bonus, since drake have enough tank for L3s). Or players can adapt with HAMs.
But you don't have to believe me. Play with DPS windows in EFT. I could be wrong. |
Urkhan Law
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
3
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 11:21:00 -
[145] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Windman Advena wrote:Rails and Beams DPS will be about 40% better then Artillery DPS. When you get 6k alpha out of a T2 arty fit you get about 2.5 from a dps fit with other guns and alpha > to DPS everyday When you are fightign larger ships.. DPS >>>>> ALPHA.
How medium arties are used at the moment, Lokis? Hurricanes? Aren't they been used in a sort of "niche" combat only (certain fleet types in certain conditions) ?
It's an honest question, I only fly frigs (and badly), I really don't know the current application/meta of medium arties. If one day I decide to upgrade to cruisers (solo - small gang low sec roamer), I really can't see why should I use them. |
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair
34
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 11:21:00 -
[146] - Quote
WHOA
Just noticed that new medium rails tracking is gonna be worse than new medium artillery tracking |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
24
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 11:35:00 -
[147] - Quote
Silver Getsuga wrote:Not saying they're. But they look weak in particular case. Low sig (up to and including cruisers) fast ( >500 m/s) ships that swarm L3s. On paper mid-to-long range turrets on a kiting ship look better than heavy missiles.
Even with precision missiles. _Right now_ precision missiles on slow (<300 m/s) targets look about the same as rails. Post buff rails will do ~33% better. Range wise rails do better too.
That makes Drake look bad. It'll not be effective in L3s (due to dps) and L4s (due to tank/damage trade off). Maybe some kind of damage application bonus would do in theory (instead of range bonus, since drake have enough tank for L3s). Or players can adapt with HAMs.
But you don't have to believe me. Play with DPS windows in EFT. I could be wrong.
Tank and dps is fine for level 3 missions. Tank should be enough for Guristas level 4s.
[Drake, L3 Active PvE Drake]
Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Internal Force Field Array I
10MN Afterburner II Medium Shield Booster II Kinetic Deflection Field II Kinetic Deflection Field II Thermic Dissipation Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I |
Windman Advena
Morbid Angels
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 11:39:00 -
[148] - Quote
I calculated (ETF-warrior) DPS for turrets for all 5 character, no ship bonuses, T1 ammo (-50% optimal), biggest size of turret and 3 damagemods.
Rails: 66 (old - 50) Beams: 65 (52) Artillery: 47 (42)
Artillery with 20% RoF bonus: 52
Common navy ammo will give 15% more damage
For comparison: Havy missles: 37 Fury havy missles: 50 In one of last big updates damage of all havy missles was redused by 10%
HAM: 52 Rage HAM: 70 |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
126
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 11:40:00 -
[149] - Quote
The damage buff is far to massive, there will be little reason at all to use blasters and auto cannons with this numbers outside solo pvp, the only saving grace of puls is that beams are nearly unfit able on everything except the Harbinger, Zealot and Absolution and puls got scorch ammo.
The major issue of medium rails is the lack of tracking in combination with fast movement at 18-28km kitting ranges and that caldari hulls lack the effective turrets(gallente hulls with drones + rails already get ok damage on paper). The reason why small rails work is that they are used within web range and large rails are used on hulls with a lot of tracking mods or at far higher ranges. Damage is not the source of the problem with medium rails(at least on gallente hulls), it is damage application and all you gain by this change is wrecking medium blasters and auto cannons. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
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Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair
34
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 11:50:00 -
[150] - Quote
Btw do Rise and Fozzy read failheap threads? Some really good points there |
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