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supernova ranger
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
46
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Posted - 2013.07.19 05:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
By nature of their definition, carebears, and their counterpart nullbear, do not do PVP. They stick to PVE and never participate in PVP on their own volition.
I'm suggesting a " cram it down their throats" approach...
Essentially I am recommending two options that ccp could employ in highsec
1. Display mock pvp battles of npc's fighting each other that are really flashy and grab attention (to show up around stations, belts and anywhere in high where players main focus isn't fighting npcs),
examples: - battlecruiser warps in, bombers show up and gank the ship with torps but looses a ship to bc - large capital ships with escorts just warping in and looking around - 2 battleships duking it out to the death - after the show ships warp out and nothing else happens
2. Micro tournaments >Concord puts on the line 50-300m and offers two alliances to engage in a one round 5 on 5 fight >It comes through on alliance notifications >Agent appears in system before the fight and his name is given in the alliance notice >The people management choose, have to talk to agent and be in an appropriate ship to abide by the rules (ship types, exc.) >While waiting they can not warp off or change ships/mods (your stuck with what you brought) unless you leave and come back via agent >Alliances have to submit their wanting to participate and what tier they would like to start in via some means (maybe some new app on the website) otherwise they will not be included >The match takes place in the closest system in highsec that is not on an island and midway between the alliances home stations
I think these will work because it's a way of shocking someones senses with a vibrant display of EVE, if people see it, it's more likely to get people to live more dangerously - screw the logic of economics, its excessive drama and flair that will bring people out from in and without the game.
So once they see the npcs and players blowing themselves, they'll go and do it themselves! |
DataRunner Touch
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2013.07.19 05:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Technically the easiest way and the most SANDBOXIE way to introduce /carebears/ to PVP through PVE is making NPCs more like players. You know, random resistance, random change of E-war, Random damage type, and so on. |
supernova ranger
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
46
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Posted - 2013.07.19 05:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
DataRunner Touch wrote:Technically the easiest way and the most SANDBOXIE way to introduce /carebears/ to PVP through PVE is making NPCs more like players. You know, random resistance, random change of E-war, Random damage type, and so on.
It's also the worst, your talking about turning PVE into PVP by making npcs act like players...
If you remove the reason carebears play... EVE's done... period... Because carebears play a substantial role in this games sustainability |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
557
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Posted - 2013.07.19 05:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hotdrop them.
Granted, they may be unwilling participants, but, you know, problem solved. |
Aliventi
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
240
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Posted - 2013.07.19 06:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
supernova ranger wrote:DataRunner Touch wrote:Technically the easiest way and the most SANDBOXIE way to introduce /carebears/ to PVP through PVE is making NPCs more like players. You know, random resistance, random change of E-war, Random damage type, and so on. It's also the worst, your talking about turning PVE into PVP by making npcs act like players... If you remove the reason carebears play... EVE's done... period... Because carebears play a substantial role in this games sustainability He is serious. It is the best way to get carebears to PvP. Imagine if that BS rat wasn't terrible at PvP. Give it a Meta 4/T2 fit with the ability to point/scram/web/neut/NOS/+ all 4 types of Ewar. Bump up the bounty for killing the rat to 10 mil isk and give the rat the AI to actually have a shot at killing the carebear or warp away if it isn't pointed. Make the carebear learn to fight.
It worked for incursions until the incursion bears started doing silly things with their fits that would never work with PvP. So there is proof that it has worked in the past. The issue is it would require a complete rework of all missions, DED sites, anioms, and buffing incursions. That I fear is more work than CCP will invest in the system with so many other pressing issues. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
24
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Posted - 2013.07.19 06:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
how? make solo small gang pvp more viable, problem solved.
I would pvp alot more if there werent this case: jup win ... get tackled by 10 others, die. - end of pvp.
no chance to get away in hull, no chance to take risks... it's either kill or death and that is just boring. |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
261
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Posted - 2013.07.19 09:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
i'd like to see more npc interaction in the background though, like back in the day I used to play Freelancer online and npcs from different factions used to engage each other in combat and it was fun to watch, fun to get mixed up in and made the universe feel more alive and dynamic.
Carebears are risk adverse players, they are unique in that big rewards very rarely appeal to them enough to offset the risk of loss, that's why they choose the safe money that comes from mining, PI and market trading. They represent a type of gameplay that cannot be 'fixed'. Hence forcing them to engage in pvp would kill their enjoyment of the game and they would probably leave. The one thing I like about eve is that I can choose any type of gameplay that suits me, so I think it's wrong that one player group should try to force others to engage in the same style of play that they enjoy.
If they want to be wallflowers in the background happily mining away 23-7 or cluttering up the undock of Jita4-4 in their freighters than that's fair enough, at least it's human interaction and activity we're seeing which as a force shapes the game in some way, this has to be a good thing. Tiericide is tiers by another name. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
31
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Posted - 2013.07.19 10:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
there are lot of those carebears that are just alts supporting main accounts that are pvp focused, so this "exposure" isn't anything new to them. besides, EVE is a dynamic universe, not just some battle arena for pvp. thats what makes the whole game interesting. when i want to brawl i just log this account on and look for a fight. i get bored or cant find a fight, i switch to an alt (or not an alt if i have the chasnce) where i can strive to improve my output, earnings, etc. its all about what i feel like doing that day.
but i'm agreed with some of the other replies, pve is lame and could really use some more fun and challenge for all levels. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
40
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Posted - 2013.07.19 10:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Why? If players aren't interested in PvP, it's because those that inhabit low-sec have turned into reavers. They suicide-gank anything just for the killmail and kill everything in gate-camps just for sport. I can see the appeal... |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
107
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Posted - 2013.07.19 10:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Well currently i know this kind of options:
- FULL SRP ( as most of the alliances didit manage to persuade their nullibear that comming to CTA in t1 frigate is bad idea) - 100% Tax (but you got to have ability to do this in your renting corp) - Dedicate random PVP person that will hunt your PVE players during CTA in ratting systems - Don't accept pure PVE players to your corp/alliance ( but then they will go to CFC ) Phantasm - 150% speed bonus in cloak - 2LY jump range
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10906
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Posted - 2013.07.19 10:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
supernova ranger wrote:DataRunner Touch wrote:Technically the easiest way and the most SANDBOXIE way to introduce /carebears/ to PVP through PVE is making NPCs more like players. You know, random resistance, random change of E-war, Random damage type, and so on. It's also the worst, your talking about turning PVE into PVP by making npcs act like players... If you remove the reason carebears play... EVE's done... period... Because carebears play a substantial role in this games sustainability
wow really?
So you're literally saying that "carebears" aren't capable of radical pvP concepts like 'omni-tanking' and will leave rather than adopt them?
1 Kings 12:11
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
83
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Posted - 2013.07.19 11:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote::- Dedicate random PVP person that will hunt your PVE players during CTA in ratting systems
I was laughing at that one, I have come across quite a few people who do PvE while their PvP toon is sitting on a Titan, could cause some fun and games doing that! If you do not want LOCAL go to WH space, its as simple as that!-á-á-á-á-á-á-á There are people who think that WH space is like 0.0 but without local, well they should light a cyno and try jumping to it. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
83
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Posted - 2013.07.19 11:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:supernova ranger wrote:DataRunner Touch wrote:Technically the easiest way and the most SANDBOXIE way to introduce /carebears/ to PVP through PVE is making NPCs more like players. You know, random resistance, random change of E-war, Random damage type, and so on. It's also the worst, your talking about turning PVE into PVP by making npcs act like players... If you remove the reason carebears play... EVE's done... period... Because carebears play a substantial role in this games sustainability wow really? So you're literally saying that "carebears" aren't capable of radical pvP concepts like 'omni-tanking' and will leave rather than adopt them?
In isolation you are correct, but lets add removal of perfect refining, moving level 4's to low sec, removal of gun mining, and many other anti-HS ideas and bang you will see it. If you do not want LOCAL go to WH space, its as simple as that!-á-á-á-á-á-á-á There are people who think that WH space is like 0.0 but without local, well they should light a cyno and try jumping to it. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1307
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 11:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Malcanis wrote:supernova ranger wrote:DataRunner Touch wrote:Technically the easiest way and the most SANDBOXIE way to introduce /carebears/ to PVP through PVE is making NPCs more like players. You know, random resistance, random change of E-war, Random damage type, and so on. It's also the worst, your talking about turning PVE into PVP by making npcs act like players... If you remove the reason carebears play... EVE's done... period... Because carebears play a substantial role in this games sustainability wow really? So you're literally saying that "carebears" aren't capable of radical pvP concepts like 'omni-tanking' and will leave rather than adopt them? In isolation you are correct, but lets add removal of perfect refining, moving level 4's to low sec, removal of gun mining, and many other anti-HS ideas and bang you will see it. No, they will do level 3 missions instead. They will just deal with the refining loss. You will under all circumstances never get a carebear to PvP, ever. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Tribal Band
740
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 13:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
DataRunner Touch wrote:Technically the easiest way and the most SANDBOXIE way to introduce /carebears/ to PVP through PVE is making NPCs more like players. You know, random resistance, random change of E-war, Random damage type, and so on.
it's actually more like making the npc profiles actually match the ship they are flying eg .. npc is flying a caracal .. and shoots at you with a missile, a laser and a hybrid it makes no sense .. the caracal just shoots missiles, lots of missiles
dynamic content will not drive carebears away, theres probably a bunch that would actually enjoy it even more however imho making dynamic npc content will not entice carebears into pvp because there will still be a large disparity between a pve fitting and a pvp fitting, biased in the favour of the pvp fitting
At least 1 dev has stated in the past, that the distinction between pve/pvp builds needs to be addressed how they will achieve that is probably an occasionally raised point at the meetings they have as they plan for future development
[edit] I would, at this point, like to remind the OP and all those who are thinking in the same way, of an old saying
Quote: You can lead a horse to water ..........
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Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid
13
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Posted - 2013.07.19 14:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Why? If players aren't interested in PvP, it's because those that inhabit low-sec have turned into reavers. They suicide-gank anything just for the killmail and kill everything in gate-camps just for sport. I can see the appeal...
that's only because 0.0 is empty apart from the odd blob or cloaky interdiction nullified insta warping T3's |
Aversun
Systems Federation Coalition of Galactic Unity
16
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Posted - 2013.07.19 14:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
as a quasi-bear, I don't go much for pvp because I'm not naturally aggressive. Most of my fights were in self defense. Also to me atleast, its not really to obvious how to fit for a fight and come out with at least your structure intact. I only go into fights if there's even odds I'll get out of it again.
As for pve being more like pvp, I wouldn't mind rats better fitting the ships they use, and maybe a bit smarter, like running off, and then coming back with reinforcements, or even occasionally chasing you from system to system |
Blastil
The Reblier Alliance
80
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Posted - 2013.07.19 14:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
listen, the problem with things like this is that you're assuming that carebears don't enjoy PVP because they haven't been forced to do it. That's bullshit. carebears don't enjoy PVP because they enjoy other aspects of the game more. the PVE environment of this game is fine, with the exception that most people (including bears) think missions should be overhauled, and made more interesting.
The real problem is that PVP pilots have no way of doing PVE in 0.0 space, and no incentive to do it either, beyond simply making money, which could be done with incursions in the safety of highsec. this makes it very difficult for line members of 0.0 alliances and corps to make enough ISK to support PVP without dedicating vast amounts of time and energy to making ISK to afford things. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
83
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 14:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Dracvlad wrote:Malcanis wrote:supernova ranger wrote:DataRunner Touch wrote:Technically the easiest way and the most SANDBOXIE way to introduce /carebears/ to PVP through PVE is making NPCs more like players. You know, random resistance, random change of E-war, Random damage type, and so on. It's also the worst, your talking about turning PVE into PVP by making npcs act like players... If you remove the reason carebears play... EVE's done... period... Because carebears play a substantial role in this games sustainability wow really? So you're literally saying that "carebears" aren't capable of radical pvP concepts like 'omni-tanking' and will leave rather than adopt them? In isolation you are correct, but lets add removal of perfect refining, moving level 4's to low sec, removal of gun mining, and many other anti-HS ideas and bang you will see it. No, they will do level 3 missions instead. They will just deal with the refining loss. You will under all circumstances never get a carebear to PvP, ever.
I was actually saying that if you did those things they would leave the game rather than do them, so its best not to do those changes because there is no benefit in forcing people out of the game.
In terms of my definition of carebear, I mean those players that will only do PvE and avoid PvP like the plague, not the people who do PvE to fund their PvP who I see as a better class of PvP'r then those that are easy mode SRP PvP'rs. Perhaps when people make comments about carebears it would be helpful to define what exactly do they mean by that term!
If you do not want LOCAL go to WH space, its as simple as that!-á-á-á-á-á-á-á There are people who think that WH space is like 0.0 but without local, well they should light a cyno and try jumping to it. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10912
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 14:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:Malcanis wrote:supernova ranger wrote:DataRunner Touch wrote:Technically the easiest way and the most SANDBOXIE way to introduce /carebears/ to PVP through PVE is making NPCs more like players. You know, random resistance, random change of E-war, Random damage type, and so on. It's also the worst, your talking about turning PVE into PVP by making npcs act like players... If you remove the reason carebears play... EVE's done... period... Because carebears play a substantial role in this games sustainability wow really? So you're literally saying that "carebears" aren't capable of radical pvP concepts like 'omni-tanking' and will leave rather than adopt them? In isolation you are correct, but lets add removal of perfect refining, moving level 4's to low sec, removal of gun mining, and many other anti-HS ideas and bang you will see it.
Well object to those ideas in their appropriate context then, because the post you replied to wasn't even a "nerf carebears" suggestion; it is a boost.
1 Kings 12:11
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
2115
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Posted - 2013.07.19 14:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:i...
Carebears are risk adverse players, they are unique in that big rewards very rarely appeal to them enough to offset the risk of loss, that's why they choose the safe money that comes from mining, PI and market trading. They represent a type of gameplay that cannot be 'fixed'. Hence forcing them to engage in pvp would kill their enjoyment of the game and they would probably leave. The one thing I like about eve is that I can choose any type of gameplay that suits me, so I think it's wrong that one player group should try to force others to engage in the same style of play that they enjoy. ... Here is the key.
The so-called carebears don't hate PvP. They just avoid ship to ship combat because it represents too high of a risk profile. PvP is present in every aspect of the game, including ship spinning, the moment you compare your score to someone elses.
Give carebears a way to engage that is not such high risk, and you will have them jumping in all over the place.
Give them a way to more safely engage, so they risk a trivial amount. (They already consider the time lost, since they COULD have been ratting or mining. Punishing them by setting them back an amount of time equal to what it took them to earn the ISK to buy the ship is more than they are willing to gamble, so they don't)
Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Don't beat up on "carebears" because they are following this advice. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
42
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Posted - 2013.07.19 15:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:The so-called carebears don't hate PvP. They just avoid ship to ship combat because it represents too high of a risk profile.
Exactly. And local is essentially like broadcasting "shoot me" when you enter a system. Eliminate that (for starters), and you open up some interesting possibilities. |
Zatar Sharisa
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
3
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Posted - 2013.07.19 15:56:00 -
[23] - Quote
As a so-called carebear, I have to agree with several who've commented here that OP is operating under a mistaken premise. I carebear not because I haven't been exposed to it, but because I just don't see the point.
PvP is a challenge and thrill! You know what? If I want a challenge, I'll go to a friend's house and break out the dice for a nice session of table top RP, grab something like Axis and Allies, or even a chess board. That way at least we can sit around, laugh, joke, and tell "old war" stories. And if I want a thrill...Enh, I'll take my motorcycle on the Interstates or drive a few miles to one of the near by amusement parks. In other words, the argument that that PvP is more fun because of the challenge and thrill is null because if I want either, I'll go and be active as opposed to passive and sitting in front of a computer screen.
I also am not all that aggressive. It used to annoy the bejeebers out of me to even watch the kids that would destroy other's sand castles or lego contraptions. They didn't have to destroy mine. It irked me that they thought it was "fun" to destroy what others built. Seriously? That's bullying and nothing more, plain and simple. If I ever do get into PvP, rest assured people that do things like that will be my targets of preference.
Then there's the issue of bragging rights. Sorry, but who cares how many kills I have or how much ISK I've blown up? I really just don't get how anyone is amused or interested in this. It makes no sense to me. I simply don't have a need to measure my worth by polishing up my e-peen.
Finally there's the whole risk-reward issue. Given the lack of motivations stated above, what is the reward for engaging in PvP? Pretty much nothing. Yet I risk not only the ship, but there's always that potential that someone will decide to tear farm and pop my pod too. In other words, from my pov, there's no reward involved at all, only risk.
I guess truly finally, there's also the point that's been made that everything here on EvE is PvP. The moment you undock someone could decide to suicide gank you. Then there's wardecs, and probably several other factors that I've just not encountered. PvP is an integral aspect of EvE, and one you simply can't avoid. I don't even think choosing not to undock can insulate you completely.
To make a long post even longer, I will add that the idea of making the rats smarter is a cool one. I like the idea that your mission target could warp out on you, that their ships are optimized for the hull type too, or any number of things to improve the AI. So that part of the idea gets a +1. Beer. -áBecause no great story begins with a salad.
Hold my beer and watch this! |
L0rdF1end
Mainly AFK Happy Cartel
69
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Posted - 2013.07.19 15:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
Put AFK cloakers in their favourite PVE systems. job done. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
32
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Posted - 2013.07.19 16:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
Make pvp highly profitable to offset the risk and you'll have more carebears pvping. Right now it's one of the biggest isk sinks a player has |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Tribal Band
741
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 16:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Make pvp highly profitable to offset the risk and you'll have more carebears pvping. Right now it's one of the biggest isk sinks a player has
#1 loot wrecks #2 sell loot #3 profit #4 post wallet transaction info along side kill mail data, for added tears |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
2116
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Posted - 2013.07.19 16:48:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Rowells wrote:Make pvp highly profitable to offset the risk and you'll have more carebears pvping. Right now it's one of the biggest isk sinks a player has #1 loot wrecks #2 sell loot #3 profit #4 post wallet transaction info along side kill mail data, for added tears Offsetting the risk by the potential of gain already exists, and therefore demonstrates not being an effective incentive to PvP.
These are guys who grinded possibly for hours getting a ship and fittings they planned for ultimate game enjoyment. Or at least all they could manage with what they had to work with.
Now, ask them to risk several hours of effort in a one minute contest, against an opponent who probably picked the fight because they think they have an advantage that will let them win.
From the carebear perspective, that is completely bonkers.
Now, a mission where they can play smart, and back off if things start to go badly, that makes more sense. Effort translates to progress, maybe not always winning, but the previous efforts to reach where you are have not been lost.
What's in your hangar has as much value to this perspective as the skillpoints, where as PvP often uses a disposable ship mentality, and the skill points letting you fly cheap but effective fits is your true valuable asset. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
33
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Posted - 2013.07.19 16:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Rowells wrote:Make pvp highly profitable to offset the risk and you'll have more carebears pvping. Right now it's one of the biggest isk sinks a player has #1 loot wrecks #2 sell loot #3 profit #4 post wallet transaction info along side kill mail data, for added tears
im sure that after losing 3 BC in the course of 4 days the loot and salvage will SURELY more than compensate. Raw PvP (as its being suggested) is practically never profitable. in the end you always come out in the red with isk. and the less you spend on your own ship to reduce the risk, the harder it is to kill anything with salvagable value. assuming you even have a decent kill/death ratio to begin with |
Zatar Sharisa
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
5
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Posted - 2013.07.19 17:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
Rowells wrote:
im sure that after losing 3 BC in the course of 4 days the loot and salvage will SURELY more than compensate. Raw PvP (as its being suggested) is practically never profitable. in the end you always come out in the red with isk. and the less you spend on your own ship to reduce the risk, the harder it is to kill anything with salvagable value. assuming you even have a decent kill/death ratio to begin with
Which, let's face the reality here, at first you won't have a decent kill/death ratio. You are more likely to have a decent death/kill ratio in point of fact. Beer. -áBecause no great story begins with a salad.
Hold my beer and watch this! |
Silent Rambo
Legion of Seven
19
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Posted - 2013.07.19 18:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
Initially starting PVP is basically a **** show. You're gonna lose ISK initially and I understand this. The whole point is will you ever actually make good money doing this? In short answer, probably not (especially if you are solo) its going to be a sink. I see little personal reward in this type of play, therefore why should people do it?
PvP is a side affect of players competing for resources. If the rewards of said resources aren't high enough in dangerous areas to make up for the risk, why would players try and compete for them when there are resources available in safer places? "Carebears" aren't going to PvP just for the **** of it. You need to give them a reason to feel they can personally make more income in much more dangerous areas, even if they lose things. Personal ISK/Hour might be made fun of by hardcore PvPers, but its the name of the game for a lot of people. |
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