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baltec1
Bat Country
7313
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Posted - 2013.07.22 18:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Until you've rebalanced HACs, Black Ops, Marauders and Pirate Faction - T3 rebalancing is moot. And that was my point.
They have posted the plans for HACs.
The rest don't matter to t3 cruiser balance because they are BATTLESHIPS. |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1629
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:24:00 -
[32] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:ElQuirko wrote:make them something new, which is what an improvement in tech level would suggest. They are being made into something new. When they are rebalanced, I'm sure their roles will be suitably different and improved.
And what are these new roles going to do, exactly? Because I'm pretty sure T2 and specialised ships (e.g. barges, rorquals) have got all the bases covered. Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2074
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:30:00 -
[33] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:Riot Girl wrote:ElQuirko wrote:make them something new, which is what an improvement in tech level would suggest. They are being made into something new. When they are rebalanced, I'm sure their roles will be suitably different and improved. And what are these new roles going to do, exactly? Because I'm pretty sure T2 and specialised ships (e.g. barges, rorquals) have got all the bases covered.
My goodness, you're right!
May as well delete them entirely then since all bases in Eve have already been covered. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8444
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Posted - 2013.07.22 18:40:00 -
[34] - Quote
T2 hulls are intended to be specialized in their roles while T3s are intended to be jacks of all trades. So you can fit a Loki that warps cloaked, disregards bubbles and can project webs farther than an unbonused ship, but a Rapier or Huginn is still superior with the web range bonus.
T3s are not supposed to dwarf the capabilities of a role specialized T2 hull. This is why you don't see T3s being used in place of logistics or as dedicated ewar ships. One big part of the problem is that HACs don't exactly have a specialty, they're mostly upgraded versions of their T1 counterparts. Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Riot Girl
Thundercats The Initiative.
1377
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:40:00 -
[35] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:And what are these new roles going to do, exactly? Because I'm pretty sure T2 and specialised ships (e.g. barges, rorquals) have got all the bases covered. They're going to do some of the stuff T2 cruisers do, only not as good and in a different capacity. They might be able to do some other stuff too and they'll probably be suitable for certain playstyles but not others. That's all we've been told so far, I'm kind of excited.
Oh god. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
590
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 18:44:00 -
[36] - Quote
Not going to happen, OP. CCP has determined that wormhole income must be destroyed, since too many people are able to live there full time. The best way to do that is through a significant T3 nerf. The overpowered nature of T3s is of secondary importance to this goal. Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
315
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Posted - 2013.07.22 18:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
Andski wrote:T2 hulls are intended to be specialized in their roles while T3s are intended to be jacks of all trades. So you can fit a Loki that warps cloaked, disregards bubbles and can project webs farther than an unbonused ship, but a Rapier or Huginn is still superior with the web range bonus. T3s are not supposed to dwarf the capabilities of a role specialized T2 hull. This is why you don't see T3s being used in place of logistics or as dedicated ewar ships. One big part of the problem is that HACs don't exactly have a specialty, they're mostly upgraded versions of their T1 counterparts.
Indeed, the issue with T3 isn't really an issue........nerf the tech 3s down HACs will still not be worth the money.
Fix the HACs.
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baltec1
Bat Country
7313
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Posted - 2013.07.22 18:51:00 -
[38] - Quote
Onictus wrote:
Fix the HACs.
The new HACs are up. They are not being buffed to be in line with t3s, they are balanced with the other cruisers.
Welcome to your nano nerf. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
315
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Posted - 2013.07.22 18:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Onictus wrote:
Fix the HACs.
The new HACs are up. They are not being buffed to be in line with t3s, they are balanced with the other cruisers. Welcome to your nano nerf.
Of them still suck yes.
They also said during the AT that they were going to look over the changes. As it stands there is no real motivation to use HACs over a bc or even a T1. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3873
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Posted - 2013.07.22 19:11:00 -
[40] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Onictus wrote:Fix the HACs. The new HACs are up. They are not being buffed to be in line with t3s, they are balanced with the other cruisers. Welcome to your nano nerf. Nano nerfs?! There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over. Fountain will never fall. Deklein by September. Thought is not heresy, wrong thought is.
PL, NC., N3, Tribe, 401k, you are our only hope ! ~TEST2013 |
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baltec1
Bat Country
7314
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Posted - 2013.07.22 19:30:00 -
[41] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: Nano nerfs?!
Its this "generations" nano nerf.
It has been a long time since we have had a rageout as big as what is coming and I for one cannot wait |
Zimmy Zeta
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
25442
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Posted - 2013.07.22 19:40:00 -
[42] - Quote
I just discovered a new Eve rule:
Whenever preemptive "CCP, don't nerf X" threads come up, it's a reliable indicator that the X in question is severely overpowered and needs to be nerfed into the ground. Just think of how bad an average post by me is, and then realize half of them are even worse |
Obunagawe
190
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 19:43:00 -
[43] - Quote
Sure, they can nerf T3. But they need to nerf the cost of the T3 along with it if they do. If a T3 with all subs cost 100-120M, it could then be in the place they envisage it on their little chart. But paying more to get less is a bitter pill. |
YuuKnow
Inner 5phere
831
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 19:45:00 -
[44] - Quote
Loosing a weeks worth of training time every time your blown up is enough of a penalty as is to justify leaving them alone. If they are nerfed to mediocrity then at least remove the SP loss on destruction.
yk |
Obunagawe
190
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Posted - 2013.07.22 19:49:00 -
[45] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:Loosing a weeks worth of training time every time your blown up is enough of a penalty as is to justify leaving them alone. If they are nerfed to mediocrity then at least remove the SP loss on destruction.
yk
Actually at a very competetive 500 isk/SP even a loss of a level 5 skill (200K SP, roughly) only sets you back an equivalent 100M ISK. So really the SP loss is negligible compared to the cost of the ship itself. |
YuuKnow
Inner 5phere
832
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 20:13:00 -
[46] - Quote
Obunagawe wrote:YuuKnow wrote:Loosing a weeks worth of training time every time your blown up is enough of a penalty as is to justify leaving them alone. If they are nerfed to mediocrity then at least remove the SP loss on destruction.
yk Actually at a very competetive 500 isk/SP even a loss of a level 5 skill (200K SP, roughly) only sets you back an equivalent 100M ISK. So really the SP loss is negligible compared to the cost of the ship itself.
Nah, SP loss isn't translatable to isk loss as SP can't be bought (aside from character sales), only earned with RL time. Its lost is a pure opportunity cost. The analogy would be equating missing your brothers wedding to the cost of the plane trip and hotel (albeit that's an overdramatic analogy).
yk |
bloodknight2
Talledega Knights PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
126
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Posted - 2013.07.22 20:18:00 -
[47] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:Loosing a weeks worth of training time every time your blown up is enough of a penalty as is to justify leaving them alone. If they are nerfed to mediocrity then at least remove the SP loss on destruction.
yk
Stop using dying then or use another ship. |
YuuKnow
Inner 5phere
832
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 20:19:00 -
[48] - Quote
bloodknight2 wrote:YuuKnow wrote:Loosing a weeks worth of training time every time your blown up is enough of a penalty as is to justify leaving them alone. If they are nerfed to mediocrity then at least remove the SP loss on destruction.
yk Stop using dying then or use another ship.
Which is what everyone will do when they nerf it to uselessness.
yk |
baltec1
Bat Country
7314
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 20:21:00 -
[49] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:
Which is what everyone will do when they nerf it to uselessness.
yk
Given the results so far that will not happen. They just wont be as hideously overpowered as they are now. |
bloodknight2
Talledega Knights PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
126
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 20:27:00 -
[50] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:bloodknight2 wrote:YuuKnow wrote:Loosing a weeks worth of training time every time your blown up is enough of a penalty as is to justify leaving them alone. If they are nerfed to mediocrity then at least remove the SP loss on destruction.
yk Stop using dying then or use another ship. Which is what everyone will do when they nerf it to uselessness. yk
Even if T3 are nerfed, people will still use them over hac or bc. |
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
435
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 20:28:00 -
[51] - Quote
Andski wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:This is a request to respectfully leave T3 Strategic Cruisers as is. They're expensive, require a specific (non-transferable) skill set and are already penalized with the loss of skill points when one is lost. With the removal from 3/4 complexes they're now relegated to mission-running and wormhole operations. Yes, they're op - they're supposed to be. There are worthier projects: Marauders, Black Ops and Pirate Factions, to name a few. 1) T3s aren't expensive, you can fully fit a T3 for much less than a billion. 2) T3s had no business in your 3/10s and 4/10s, their use for those sites were completely edging out newer players by leaps and bounds. 3) T3s have far more uses than mission running and wormholes and you'd know this if you bothered to peek outside of your hisec bubble. 4) Blops BSes have been heavily rebalanced, pirate faction ships are not currently in a bad state save for Sansha hulls and perhaps Blood Raiders, and marauders fill their intended roles just fine.
This. I replaced my Apocalypse with another Legion with minimal cost to myself.
T3s aren't that expensive at all.
Sadly, my Cruor and Ashimmu are collecting dust currently as my Zealot is by far more fun to fly (not to mention the pilgrim).
T3 are a fun novelty, and have it's uses, but meh... T2 cruisers are way more fun. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
435
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 20:31:00 -
[52] - Quote
bloodknight2 wrote:Oh look, that thread again.
T3 should and must be nerfed hard. -25 to 33% in their EHP would be a good start. Every one seems to agree that the legion is the "worst" T3 of all and it is OP. A T3 should be versatile and not be able to have the same EHP than a command ship or battleship with the agility and speed of a cruiser.
Why not? "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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baltec1
Bat Country
7314
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 20:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Why not?
Because its a cruiser not a battleship. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
435
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 20:35:00 -
[54] - Quote
Obunagawe wrote:Sure, they can nerf T3. But they need to nerf the cost of the T3 along with it if they do. If a T3 with all subs cost 100-120M, it could then be in the place they envisage it on their little chart. But paying more to get less is a bitter pill.
Half of my subsystems cost 75m, the others cost around 30mil.
FOTM market orders are owning you. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
435
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Posted - 2013.07.22 20:38:00 -
[55] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Why not?
Because its a cruiser not a battleship.
I think you're missing my point.
EHP is not a stat that fits hulls the same way across the board.
Raw hp versus resistances play a factor.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
591
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 20:39:00 -
[56] - Quote
Obunagawe wrote:Sure, they can nerf T3. But they need to nerf the cost of the T3 along with it if they do. If a T3 with all subs cost 100-120M, it could then be in the place they envisage it on their little chart. But paying more to get less is a bitter pill.
They won't have to nerf the cost; the market will do so with any loss in performance.
I can fully imagine that with the rebalance is going to come a redistribution of module slots across the various subsystems. You're not going to have the mix-and-match of lows/mids that allows such ridiculous levels of tank on these ships. In fact, I would not be surprised to see them reallocate most (if not all) module slots directly onto the hull like other ships, and rework the subsystems to affect only stats, bonuses, turrets/launcher hardpoints, drone bay/bandwidth, etc. There's probably also going to be a nerf to the base resists built into the subsystems to T2 level or so. Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
YuuKnow
Inner 5phere
833
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 20:44:00 -
[57] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:YuuKnow wrote:
Which is what everyone will do when they nerf it to uselessness.
yk
Given the results so far that will not happen. They just wont be as hideously overpowered as they are now.
'Hideously overpowered' is grossly hyperbolic at best. Not one T3 cruiser in the top 20 Eve ship killers: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/3235 (iirc there is a similar, but more updated, version of these stats as well but can't find it atm).
They are performing as a 'Tech3' cruiser should perform.
yk |
Gneeznow
L'Avant Garde
85
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 20:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
Nerf them.
Nerf them hard CCP.
Make it hurt.
Hnnnnnggghh! |
baltec1
Bat Country
7314
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Posted - 2013.07.22 20:50:00 -
[59] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:baltec1 wrote:YuuKnow wrote:
Which is what everyone will do when they nerf it to uselessness.
yk
Given the results so far that will not happen. They just wont be as hideously overpowered as they are now. 'Hideously overpowered' is grossly hyperbolic at best. Not one T3 cruiser in the top 20 Eve ship killers: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/3235 (iirc there is a similar, but more updated, version of these stats as well but can't find it atm). They are performing as a 'Tech3' cruiser should perform. yk
The falcon is also not on that list yet was nerfed as were supercaps and titans which were nerfed several times.
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
591
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 20:54:00 -
[60] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:baltec1 wrote:YuuKnow wrote:
Which is what everyone will do when they nerf it to uselessness.
yk
Given the results so far that will not happen. They just wont be as hideously overpowered as they are now. 'Hideously overpowered' is grossly hyperbolic at best. Not one T3 cruiser in the top 20 Eve ship killers: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/3235 (iirc there is a similar, but more updated, version of these stats as well but can't find it atm). They are performing as a 'Tech3' cruiser should perform. yk
According to the two year old stats provided, I simply see that people like using pre-nerf Hurricanes to do their killing; likely because it was pre-nerf, and you can fit multiples for the cost of a single T3.
Of course, the ships truly only become 'over powered' when you slap a lot of faction/deadspace crap on them, but that's the case with anything. But what's more likely to have all that? An expensive T3 with a HP loss penalty, or a cheap T1 battlecruiser that still won't see the same level of tank and performance with the same fit? Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
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