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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
95
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Posted - 2013.07.25 05:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Try to stay on topic; kittens.
Can they be randomly generated kittens? |
Andrew Indy
Four Pillar Production Headshot Gaming
14
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Posted - 2013.07.25 05:48:00 -
[32] - Quote
Necroromantic wrote:[quote=Zor'katar]Stuff
the only real way to prove it would be to record every mission you do and all the loot you get over the period of say a year and then compare from there.
Without a huge sample its hard to determain anything.
I did a much of invention last week (in batches of 3) and I got about 7 fails in a row followed by about 9 success. The same can be said for Nanoribbons in WH SItes, I did a few sites yesterday and got 5 ribbons from 2 wrecks (5 each) within only 1 or 2 wrecks between the 2 and then about 13 from the other 5 sites.
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Barzai Mekhar
EON Experiments Mad Citizens
2
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Posted - 2013.07.25 06:02:00 -
[33] - Quote
S Byerley wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Try to stay on topic; kittens. Can they be randomly generated kittens?
Personally, I'd prefer trained attack kittens, that track down and viciously maul anyone on the internet that claims that "something is not truly random" without providing an appropriate number of observations... |
Necroromantic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
25
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Posted - 2013.07.27 00:35:00 -
[34] - Quote
Firstly thanks for the posts...
Gimmi more Cynos... there are more than 6 level 3 missions available in caldari territory so your analogy to dice is even more lacking than my list of 10 missions in a row i have given and for the record i'm fully aware if i had listed say 100 or 500 missions to show the 'clusters' of what i am calling 'Not very random, random missions' you would be moaning about the wall of text instead so please feel free to stop reading if you don't like it. However if you want to draw out on the odds lets look at an activity that includes ta truly random selection process - the British National Lottery.
The lottery randomly selects 7 balls from a hopper out of a possible 49 balls (6 winning numbers and a bonus ball giving a second chance to have a selection of 6) with EVE-Survival listing 136 possible lvl 3 missions variations and if you quarter that number to account for race specific missions then you have a figure of 34 possible mission choices - i do believe as well that some of the newer missions may not even be on EVE-Survival yet so the number of missions available in any territory maybe higher..
Now the odds of winning the lottery jackpot by randomly matching 6/7 numbers that the draw machine or 'HOPPER' also selects is close to 1 in 14 million. And for that hopper then to draw those exact same 7 numbers(6 main and 1 bonus ball) for the next 2 draws - making it so the same winning 6 numbers and 1 bonus ball are drawn randomly 3 times in a row the odds are a staggering 358 million against such a multiple draw selection and that why it has NEVER in history happened!.. so i guess if the random mission selector can randomly draw the same 6 missions 3 times each in 20-25 missions out of a pool of at least 34 missions the odds must be half of that at about 179 million to 1 and that should be mean regular 'clusters' of 4-6 missions should be as rare as rocking horse sh*t!!! and then to have these 'clusters' occur every few days to a week is an insurmountably long shot... ergo NOT SO RANDOM, RANDOM MISSIONS!!!
and lastly Gimmi and those of you who feel i have not offered you a large enough selection to prove my point, consider the fact the DEVs only need to look in the logs to see what missions i have done just as i can by opening the character sheet menu then the standings page menu then 'we' as players right click the agent name and left click the option called 'show transactions' and a list showing every mission ever undertaken by you for that agent and the date and time of the missions too...which sure beats me listing 100 or 500 missions in the order i recieved them on the forum and im sure doing so would breach some forum rule or another on spamming lol
To GM BUNYIP, not to be too snippy about it or anything by why did you personally refuse to answer my question in my privately written petition 'ticket' and direct me to the forums only to come on to the forum to answer it here? how is it your job to answer this question here after telling me its not your job to do it in a customer service petition? that's staggering!!!!
but anyway in reply to your post... i am unaware of anyway to which i can 'ADD' more missions to an agent's list of missions available please advise as this might help as, as to my knowledge, if the mission is available to 1 lvl 3 security agent in caldari space then that mission is available to EVERY level 3 security agent in caldari space, i would be grateful if you could clarify this point please. Also this does not explain why when i scan back through the 'show transaction' of the agents i run missions for the selection pool of missions offered only actual number 27 in over 300 missions what are the odds 7-8 missions would NOT EVER be randomly picked in over 300 missions?
Also at this point i feel i have made it clearer on what the odds of getting such tight groups of missions is, IF a true random generator was being used. So the suggestion i would make to the developers would be to look towards the software used by online casinos as the technology must be considerably newer and better than the randomizers you currently use. I would like to say definitively that I have not witnessed in patch notes or expansion details that the games internal randomizing algorithms have ever been updated in the last decade but i can't so maybe a DEV would like to post here an explanation of CCP's expectations of it's in-game randomizers seeing as the entire game hinges on randomization and those algorithms support other areas of the game like random chance of success when inventing as pointed out by Andrew Indy..
with the game being constantly upgraded and changed there is of course a real possibility that 10+ years old randomization algorithms may no longer be sufficient to run a game that now requires 20GB hard space over the 5GB required just 8 years ago when i first started playing on a pc which it's total hard drive space was only 20GB lol and maybe they need to be overhauled by the DEVs with the same enthusiasm they have shown with ship rebalancing :)
Have a nice weekend everyone o/ |
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
140
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Posted - 2013.07.27 03:17:00 -
[35] - Quote
Necroromantic wrote:but anyway in reply to your post... i am unaware of anyway to which i can 'ADD' more missions to an agent's list of missions available please advise as this might help as, as to my knowledge, if the mission is available to 1 lvl 3 security agent in caldari space then that mission is available to EVERY level 3 security agent in caldari space, i would be grateful if you could clarify this point please. Also this does not explain why when i scan back through the 'show transaction' of the agents i run missions for the selection pool of missions offered only actual number 27 in over 300 missions what are the odds 7-8 missions would NOT EVER be randomly picked in over 300 missions? I don't think all agents of a particular race/sov space are pulling from the same pool of missions like that. It would certainly be nice if a GM told us the formula, but I'm guessing that's something they expect us to figure out for ourselves. At any rate, people have theorized that a number of things factor in to any given agent's mission pool (corporation, faction, space, proximity to enemy space, etc.) I think your best bet is to take a little field trip and find a few agents far from your usual area, maybe even in a different corp, and compare the mission pools. You may have just found some agents that don't have particularly large ones. |
Dark Poizen
Peon's Ironic Scanning Service
0
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Posted - 2013.07.27 11:17:00 -
[36] - Quote
Necroromantic wrote:I have said too i believe the stupid work shy GM's should not dismiss my pet's as ARTWORK issues and redirect to the forums so a bunch of random Wan**rs can troll my Fuc**ng official complaint!
Calm down it's a game. It's not real. Go out and get some sun, or dance naked in the rain...
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Necroromantic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
25
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Posted - 2013.07.27 11:43:00 -
[37] - Quote
Zor'katar wrote: I don't think all agents of a particular race/sov space are pulling from the same pool of missions like that. It would certainly be nice if a GM told us the formula, but I'm guessing that's something they expect us to figure out for ourselves. At any rate, people have theorized that a number of things factor in to any given agent's mission pool (corporation, faction, space, proximity to enemy space, etc.) I think your best bet is to take a little field trip and find a few agents far from your usual area, maybe even in a different corp, and compare the mission pools. You may have just found some agents that don't have particularly large ones.
Yeah I think it was better when an agent not only had a level but also had a quality rating too.. however I'm sure that quality was removed in favour of equal distribution of ALL missions for the very reason i'm posting.. this system lacked variability in missions and funnelled players into mission hubs overpopulating a few systems while other systems lay empty of players - a problem that still very much exists regardless lol.
What I understand is that a mission will yield better results if the system security is lower say a 0.5 rather than say a 1.0 where the system danger level is taken into account.. which would easily push me off topic to discuss yet again how high sec ganking and bounties system make it pointless to have a security rating 1.0 to 0.5 as systems might as well just say high, low, or null and forget security (when its a pointless feature that CCP invalidated with retributions changes to the bounty system) except as a calculating tool for the games randomizing programs including when it is calculating loot generation for example... and again when a small group of missions 'loop' or 'clump' together this acts like a modular stacking penalty heavily reducing possible profits..
As for border points - the borders are most likely going to yield a few more variations of missions, However if like me i don't want to get gank rapped for the bounties place on you for having a forum opinion - while trying to grind out missions then it is probably best to stay away from where Bold and fearless PVPers hunt for bounty and for faction warfare and to where agents are likely to send you to 0.4 or less where only a gate ganking awaits most carebears.. and if this isn't enough if you're reputation building with one faction you don't want to pull missions that will lower that factions rating because they are a say a gallette mission when bustin yer nutz to get a caldari standing increase - which you have to grind your ass off to get yet gets blown away with any small transgression like say working for an enemy state! |
Necroromantic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
25
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Posted - 2013.07.27 11:56:00 -
[38] - Quote
Dark Poizen wrote:Necroromantic wrote:I have said too i believe the stupid work shy GM's should not dismiss my pet's as ARTWORK issues and redirect to the forums so a bunch of random Wan**rs can troll my Fuc**ng official complaint! Calm down it's a game. It's not real. Go out and get some sun, or dance naked in the rain...
Hello weeee Internet troller dude, maybe you should read further at where i have stated I have Social Anxiety Disorder and can't go out without having a mild heart attack .. or keep reading to where the same GM refusing to answer my petition answers me here instead... maybe a clever little internet troll like yourself can explain the value or service of refusing a petition only to then go answer the forum thread yourself?? to me i see this as Male Dominance threat display - just like a dog p*ssing to make its territory known and highly UNPROFESSIONAL... ahhhwelll never mind... and hey thanks for joining in little internet troll, maybe your next post will actually do more than discourage others from wanting to view an opinion because your simply trolling for fun (like a brain dead jock in a locker room) and might contain something relevant to the topic. fly safe now little internet troller
Quick see if you can spot the grammar and spelling mistakes before someone else does.. i left a few just for you |
Katherine Winter
Winter Security Consultants
0
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Posted - 2013.07.27 12:15:00 -
[39] - Quote
I literally only ever get Infiltrated Outposts. |
Necroromantic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
25
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Posted - 2013.07.27 12:21:00 -
[40] - Quote
Katherine Winter wrote:I literally only ever get Infiltrated Outposts. that sucks!! what level mission is that?? it's one i have never been offered. Quick see if you can spot the grammer and spelling mistakes b4 someone else does.. i left them just for you!! :) |
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Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
44
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Posted - 2013.07.27 14:12:00 -
[41] - Quote
Necroromantic wrote:Katherine Winter wrote:I literally only ever get Infiltrated Outposts. that sucks!! what level mission is that?? it's one i have never been offered.
Level 4.
Best I've ever got: Mining Misappropriation (Blood) Gone Berserk (EoM) Ritualist Raids (Blood) Gone Berserk (EoM) Mining Misappropriation (Blood) Intercept The Saboteurs (Blood) Gone Berserk (EoM)
Or something like that. Not complaining though. |
CMD Ishikawa
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
24
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Posted - 2013.07.27 15:39:00 -
[42] - Quote
Necroromantic wrote:OK, I'm not going to name the lazy GM who can't be bothered to do his job, (but I sure as hell would like too). I am again here to get an answer from DEV'S instead, as told to by said work shy GM ..
Please can you explain the definition of the word 'RANDOM' and then maybe you can do the brainiac thing and tell what the mathematical probability (and show your workings) for 'RANDOMLY' getting, in any 4 hour period, the same 4 missions over and over and over again??? - As driving a wedge 2-2 is NOT random it always follows its opener..
agent missions given... 1. eliminate the pirate campers 2. driving a wedge pt 1 3. driving a wedge pt 2 4. gone berserk 5. unauthorized military presence 6. gone berserk 7. eliminate the pirate campers 8. unauthorized military presence 9. driving a wedge pt 1 10. driving a wedge pt 2
This is just the last 4 hour extract of the same constant issue with the lack of randomness in mission offers ( that i have mentioned in 5 petitions since Retribution) and if i was to be bothered to write down every mission done since the Odyssey Expansion you would see over half the missions that the agents (within Caldari space) SHOULD offer have never come up while i get clusters of repeated missions over and over and as I can only refuse 1 mission in any 4 hour period this now pi*sing me off no end.
I personally think this is a petition not a forum issue but as stated GM's are pathetically useless and apparently this is an in-game 'artwork' issue that the DEV'S should reply to.... So maybe you can explain how mission random generation is an ART issue too
Maybe when thats done you can explain why the term 'Customer Service' means something so very different in England than it does in Iceland!
If I were a GM or DEV or anyone from CCP I would stop reading after the first lines, not bothering in spending my time here.
You better get a seat and read something waiting for them to answer you.
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Barzai Mekhar
EON Experiments Mad Citizens
2
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Posted - 2013.07.27 16:28:00 -
[43] - Quote
Necroromantic wrote: however I'm sure that quality was removed in favour of equal distribution of ALL missions for the very reason i'm posting.. this system lacked variability in missions and funnelled players into mission hubs overpopulating a few systems while other systems lay empty of players - a problem that still very much exists regardless lol.
This assumption seems to be wrong based on other threads in this forum (e.g. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=115227). It's not clear whether each agent has an individual pool or if it is shared e.g. by region, but the general consens seems to be that the available missions are more limited than "all level 3 missions are available from all level 3 agents". This pretty much makes the rest of your argument invalid and seems a more likely explanation than "the rng is broken". |
Necroromantic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
25
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Posted - 2013.07.27 19:14:00 -
[44] - Quote
Barzai Mekhar wrote:Necroromantic wrote: however I'm sure that quality was removed in favour of equal distribution of ALL missions for the very reason i'm posting.. this system lacked variability in missions and funnelled players into mission hubs overpopulating a few systems while other systems lay empty of players - a problem that still very much exists regardless lol.
This assumption seems to be wrong based on other threads in this forum (e.g. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=115227). It's not clear whether each agent has an individual pool or if it is shared e.g. by region, but the general consens seems to be that the available missions are more limited than "all level 3 missions are available from all level 3 agents". This pretty much makes the rest of your argument invalid and seems a more likely explanation than "the rng is broken".
Thanks for the link it was an interesting read. However it is still player speculation without any input from CCP.. I petitioned this query not because i wanted to stop the trollers having their fun but because i wanted actual game information NOT speculation.. and as is to be expected all i get from forum is speculation and trolls i guess i don't run enough accounts to warrant the time it would take for a Dev to actually reply... as for my argument being broken i'm not sure how a footnote in the conversation regarding the change from agents having a quality level of between minus 18 and plus 18 to the system we have now that actually doesn't give any clear indication of whether an agent is worth using - warrants such a statement, unless of course thats just a polite way to say F**k off.. and as thats the only real sentiment i have received both from the people i pay my stinking fees too and the community trolls i guess its no real shock that i that wanted to petition rather than throw myself to the trolls. Quick see if you can spot the grammer and spelling mistakes b4 someone else does.. i left them just for you!! :) |
Barzai Mekhar
EON Experiments Mad Citizens
2
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Posted - 2013.07.27 19:42:00 -
[45] - Quote
Necroromantic wrote:as for my argument being broken i'm not sure how a footnote in the conversation regarding the change from agents having a quality level of between minus 18 and plus 18 to the system we have now that actually doesn't give any clear indication of whether an agent is worth using - warrants such a statement, unless of course thats just a polite way to say F**k off..
Necroromantic wrote: Yeah I think it was better when an agent not only had a level but also had a quality rating too.. however I'm sure that quality was removed in favour of equal distribution of ALL missions for the very reason i'm posting.. this system lacked variability in missions and funnelled players into mission hubs overpopulating a few systems while other systems lay empty of players - a problem that still very much exists regardless lol.
The highlighted part is the core of your argument and it's inconsistent with the general observations other people have made. Since you don't know if you really missed a mission or if the pool of your agents is extremely limited you can't conclude that the RNG is broken based on not receiving a mission listed on a third party side. A far more siginificant statement would be that a certain mission occured only once or twice in 300 missions.
Even if this was the case, it wouldn't rule out that some missions are less common or rare by intention.
In the end all that remains without details of the internal workings of mission distribution (which CCP is unlikely to provide) is that your current selection of agents offers missions that *feel* repetitive, which has nothing to do with a broken RNG but is simply feedback - hence the GM's suggestion to post in the feedback and suggestions board.... |
Necroromantic
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
25
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Posted - 2013.07.27 21:17:00 -
[46] - Quote
Barzai Mekhar wrote:Necroromantic wrote:as for my argument being broken i'm not sure how a footnote in the conversation regarding the change from agents having a quality level of between minus 18 and plus 18 to the system we have now that actually doesn't give any clear indication of whether an agent is worth using - warrants such a statement, unless of course thats just a polite way to say F**k off.. Necroromantic wrote: Yeah I think it was better when an agent not only had a level but also had a quality rating too.. however I'm sure that quality was removed in favour of equal distribution of ALL missions for the very reason i'm posting.. this system lacked variability in missions and funnelled players into mission hubs overpopulating a few systems while other systems lay empty of players - a problem that still very much exists regardless lol.
The highlighted part is the core of your argument and it's inconsistent with the general observations other people have made. Since you don't know if you really missed a mission or if the pool of your agents is extremely limited you can't conclude that the RNG is broken based on not receiving a mission listed on a third party side. A far more siginificant statement would be that a certain mission occured only once or twice in 300 missions. Even if this was the case, it wouldn't rule out that some missions are less common or rare by intention. In the end all that remains without details of the internal workings of mission distribution (which CCP is unlikely to provide) is that your current selection of agents offers missions that *feel* repetitive, which has nothing to do with a broken RNG but is simply feedback - hence the GM's suggestion to post in the feedback and suggestions board....
Actually i think i'm quite capable of telling myself what my own points are...
1. I'm P*ssed off by CCP staff treating me A PAYING CUSTOMER like a homeless man sat in their office doorway begging for freebies - at no point have i suggested i need some sort of compensation and frankly i would not except it if offered 2. missions never generated by agents, 3. tightly clumped repeating missions with: 4. spiralling down loot value all with an eye towards players like you reaching for daddy's credit card to buy more PLEX to make up for the huge drop in, in-game profits..
In 8 years of playing this has never been a problem until the introduction of the aptly named expansion RETRIBUTION and then worsening in frequency and the length of time these clumps last when Odyssey was added and the speed as to which the clumping and loot devaluing ended when i petitioned and added this thread the forum regarding this issue.
Maybe the resistance i am receiving to this thread is based on the fact that maybe for every player who is losing out through this problem like me there is one of you exploiting the fact your mission selection and loot generation has provided you a greater return than usual! -
Level 4.
Best I've ever got: Mining Misappropriation (Blood) Gone Berserk (EoM) Ritualist Raids (Blood) Gone Berserk (EoM) Mining Misappropriation (Blood) Intercept The Saboteurs (Blood) Gone Berserk (EoM)
Or something like that. Not complaining though. Big smile. - earlier post by Tobias Hareka seems happy with the way missions are clumping together so maybe it is just a matter of gets to exploit this and who gets to lose out and supplement their game with more credit card payments!
However Yes you must be right with 136 level 3 security agent missions to choose from split over 4 territories and taking into account that a lot of missions are race/territory restricted, makes any territory pool about 34 or so now you are saying thats bullsh*t and there's less available selection to the pool than even 1 quarter of ALL possible missions in the pool PROVE IT!!!... as stated a few posts back stupid i have counted back over 300 missions and there are only 27 of what should be at least 34 missions shown within that pool over 14 different agents over 4 different corporations SO I SAY 7 or more missions from the generic caldari missions listed on EVE-Survival missions guides have never been offered...
A far more significant statement would be that a certain mission occurred only once or twice in 300 missions your words!!
i think by the standard you expect me to adhere to is actually lower than the situation i have listed... and i challenge any employee to prove anything i have said to be a lie based solely on the information contained in my games logs (the only information available to me as i'm practically here on my knees begging for more sodding information to go by)
or rather than let us keep having a 'who can p*ss the highest contest' how about you explain how many missions should be available to an agent as the word finite is hardly an accurate description and means feck all in contrast! Quick see if you can spot the grammer and spelling mistakes b4 someone else does.. i left them just for you!! :) |
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CCP Falcon
3616
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Posted - 2013.07.27 22:22:00 -
[47] - Quote
Okay, so this forum thread is now being locked for being in breach of a number of our forum rules.
Specifically, this thread breaches the following rules:
Quote:3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
Quote:4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
Quote:7. Use of profanity is prohibited.
The use of profanity is prohibited on the EVE Online forums. This includes the partial masking of letters using numbers or alternate symbols, and any attempts at bypassing the profanity filter.
Quote:22. Post constructively.
Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.
Also, please do not re-open this topic, as it will be considered as being in breach of the following forum rule:
Quote:16. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.
As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.
Locked. CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Team -á || -á EVE Illuminati -á || -á Live Events Organizer
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