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Zhu Dark
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.07.28 20:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
Is there any reason to actually train for t2 beams? Here's how the faction tachs and t2 tachs compare:
These numbers assume perfect gunnery, 5% implants, faction sinks, and 2 TCs (tracking) on a nightmare:
4 x Imperial Navy Tach (Imp Multi) Range: 33/25 Tracking: 0.04117 Cap Usage: 25.6/s RoF: 6.67693 seconds DPS: 1020
4 x Tach II (Imp Multi) Range: 33/25 Tracking: 0.04117 Cap Usage: 34.1/s (+33.2%) RoF: 6.67693 seconds DPS: 1077 (+5.6%)
4 x Tach II (Gleam) Range: 17/25 (-48%) Tracking: 0.05147 (+25% though this is functionally only a 1-2% better hit chance at the max optimal range) Cap Usage: 34.1/s (+33.2%) Rof: 6.67693 seconds DPS: 1092 (+7%)
I don't think the tracking increase from gleam really even compensates for the nearly 50% decrease in range. If you look at a target close to optimal for both faction and t2 guns with a target moving at 200 m/s traversal (assuming BS to remove sig radius from the equation) you get:
33K Faction: 98.5% to hit T2: 74.6% to hit
17K Faction: 94.5% to hit T2: 96.4% to hit
So what it comes down to is the fact that you are trading a 1/3 increase in cap usage for either a straight 5.6% dps increase with faction multi, or increased cap usage, a generally worse chance to hit for an additional 1.4% dps increase. You lose almost all dps advantage of Gleam if outside the 20K range due to reduced chance to hit in falloff. All this for the low, low price of a Rank 8 skill train (along with all the small and med specializations to IV as well). |
Xequecal
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2013.07.28 20:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
T2 beam skills are mainly for Aurora and sniping range, not close in stuff like this. |
Whitehound
1699
|
Posted - 2013.07.28 20:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Check the prices. T2 versus Faction. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Nihassa
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2013.07.28 20:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
^ What the man with the beard said. - It is a pretty obvious factor. |
Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
165
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Posted - 2013.07.28 23:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
So more damage from the specialization skill, and from the t2 guns themselves isnt worth it? Why else do you fit guns but to do damage? And hey the guns are cheaper too, ok doesnt matter if you are just a carebear I guess but those of us that PVP it makes a ton of difference.
T2 beams are godly! Who cares about a little bit of extra cap when amarr ships should have a cap booster anyway. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
1615
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 05:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3408439#post3408439 assuming from that, I will give you the benefit of a doubt that you are not trolling, which is a straight answer:
no, do not train beams. train T2 Pulses. plug Scorch into EFT instead.
and it has to be Scorch ammo. (and meta and faction pulses cannot shoot Scorch ammo)
also, you do not understand the tracking formula. it is not a 1-2% chance difference. at 17km, the difference between .04117 and .05147 rads/s is more like a 25% improvement in max transversal. however that's at 17km and that's crap range and .05 is crap tracking
incursion nightmare--use tengu siege boosts
Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
100MN Microwarpdrive II Target Painter II Target Painter II EM Ward Amplifier II Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Large 'Regard' Power Projector Large 'Regard' Power Projector
Large Energy Locus Coordinator II Large Energy Metastasis Adjuster II Large Core Defense Field Extender II
with 2x target painters, a phantasm cruiser with 10mn microwarp is doing 1521 m/s with a 1256 m sig.
not counting drones, this is 767 dps to 65km + 15, tracking 0.07349 rads/s w/ 5% tracking implant same nightmare with T2 beams w/gleam gets 922 dps to 24km + 38, tracking .05052 rads/s (crap range crap tracking) same nightmare with T2 beams w/aurora gets 527 dps to the next incursion site with tracking .0101 rads/s (wut)
Xequecal wrote:T2 beam skills are mainly for Aurora and sniping range, not close in stuff like this. false. it is impossible to know the purpose of beams, because CCP hasn't decided on one. Rainf1337 on Twitch |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
320
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 06:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
back when you got insurance payouts that were worth more than the ship was worth faction guns could easily put you in the profitable to gank category. Now t2 does more damage, and uses less cap than they used to I don't really see a reason to switch to faction, I've made due with t2 for long enough. but maybe I'll pick up a set and try em out some day. although with range scripts it looks like gleam wins out out to ~28km. I'll probably have to try gleam out before I try out navy tachs. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
46
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Posted - 2013.07.29 06:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:incursion nightmare--use tengu siege boosts
Stop trolling. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
1615
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 06:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
to reiterate: with 2x target painters, a phantasm cruiser with 10mn microwarp is doing 1521 m/s with a 1256 m sig. against the nightmare i just posted, assuming you are sitting still:
T2 pulse w/ Scorch 6.59km = 50% chance to hit 12km = 81% chance to hit 24km = 95% chance to hit = 728.65 dps 33km = 97% chance to hit = 743 dps 65km = 99.3% chance to hit = 761 dps ...->falloff; goes to **** fairly quickly. however. against this incursion phantasm, beams with multi or gleam never break 1000 dps
T2 beams with gleam: 12km = 65% chance to hit = 709.8 dps 17km = 81% chance to hit = 884 dps ...->falloff; 33km = 513 dps
faction and T2 beams with multifrequency:
17km = 71.7% chance to hit = 772 dps 33km = 91% chance to hit = 980 dps ...->falloff; 65km = 646 dps
if you're shooting at cruisers that will be mwd'ing to you, within 65km, you want Pulse II w/ Scorch. if you're going to be shooting anything laz0rs at anything coming to you, you want Pulse II w/ Scorch.
Tachyon Beam Laser II with Aurora 50% chance to hit = 48km = 260 dps 65km = 68.5% chance to hit = 360 dps 96km = 84% chance to hit = 442 dps 144km = 92.5% chance to hit...
why do I say CCP has not decided what beams are for? because if the large beams get the same treatment as the medium beams (+25% damage, -10% tracking)... they'll only be more crap. Rainf1337 on Twitch |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 07:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Anyone who tries to run incursions in that Nightmare will lose it.
Hint: it only has 50% explosive shield resist and 40% kinetic shield resist. |
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Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
613
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 07:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Anyone who tries to run incursions in that Nightmare will lose it.
Hint: it only has 50% explosive shield resist and 40% kinetic shield resist.
This solidifies my belief that you have no idea what you are talking about. |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 08:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Anyone who tries to run incursions in that Nightmare will lose it.
Hint: it only has 50% explosive shield resist and 40% kinetic shield resist. This solidifies my belief that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Go try Domi in incurion and only tank EM/therm. Do you know anything about resists and logis? |
Valleria Darkmoon
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
123
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 09:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Xequecal wrote:T2 beam skills are mainly for Aurora and sniping range, not close in stuff like this. false. it is impossible to know the purpose of beams, because CCP hasn't decided on one.
I have a litany of kills that are from alpha striking frigates off the Ossogur gate in Amamake as they jump in using Tachyons in an Oracle. I tank the gate guns by simply being 200 km away from them. Anything at all in this game is useful for something if you can find a way to use it effectively. Granted my use of T2 Tachyons is pretty limited but if I didn't have T2 Tachyons as they are right now, I wouldn't be able to do this at all now would I? It is not up to CCP to spell out a use for things, only to supply us with things in the first place. The rest is up to you to figure out on your own.
So if you don't think you can use T2 Tachs for sniping, I have a stack of paperwork that says otherwise, Kil2 also referenced it in one of his early bringing solo back podcasts, when 3 of us competing for kill count popped his Vexor from ~200 km.
The tech 2 skills are pretty much a requirement for doing this as the extra damage is the difference between a kill and a scary warp off in many cases. Imp Navy Radio/Microwave L simply lacks the punch at similar ranges to Aurora to get the job done in most cases as many of your hits will land for less than full damage and the extra damage multiplier from the skillbook is likewise an asset. At any ranges sub 70km though you should be using pulses with scorch. Anything gets within 70km of your Tachs it's probably time to bail and get a better seat. So in answer to the OP the skills are probably not high priority but they are useful if you can spare the training time. |
Valleria Darkmoon
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
123
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 09:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:why do I say CCP has not decided what beams are for? because if the large beams get the same treatment as the medium beams (+25% damage multiplier, -10% tracking)... they'll only be more crap.
even at their current optimal on that nightmare, with an optimal of 170km, (and with its rigs and the tracking implant and the tracking computer, and the tracking enhancer)... it gets 94.6% chance to hit.
what good is a damage multiplier if it never breaks 95% of its abysmal dps.
...did i mention it's headed toward a -10% tracking change?
I agree that Large beams getting a 10% tracking reduction would make them pretty bad. What I missed is the part where CCP said that this is actually going to happen. They said +25% damage and - 10% tracking is what they are doing for MEDIUM beams which is not the same thing as beams across the board and there is no reason to assume that Large grade weapons will get the exact same treatment, note for example that this was not the case with small grade weapons nor is there any plans to change that now as far as I am aware.
As far as I can tell this assumption is completely unjustified and if you do have information that I lack please share it. |
Whitehound
1707
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 10:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:I agree that Large beams getting a 10% tracking reduction would make them pretty bad. It is so far only being discussed and for medium sized turrets only. One should add to the thread in F&ID if one has got an opinion on it.
Personally do I think it is not that bad, because one gets more damage for the reduction in tracking. One can sit further out to compensate for the tracking loss, but the damage increase is really just nice. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
1615
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 11:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
the medium beam -> large beam is just speculation, but really, when medium beams are being reduced in tracking when they deserve +10% (or something), I'm inclined to expect they'll receive the same poor treatment.
regarding the nightmare labelled as an incursion runner; i may be mistaken.
my hypothetical nightmare with tengu boosts: 67.7% EM, 74.2 TH, 66 KIN, 71.6 EXP... defense is 1642 hp/s receiving 4x L S95a shield transports from a scimi with the same tengu boosts.
I realize that is hairy, and in the moment that i was double clicking the mods into EFT, I decided on a passive resist setup. with 2x invuln IIs, the resists are 65.2% EM, 72.2% TH, 79.1% KIN, 82.6% EXP... and defense is 1963 hp/s w/ 4x L S95a shield transfers.
realistically, I would use cheap pithum c-type EM and TH amps, for a resist profile of 70.6% EM, 76.5% TH, 66% KIN, 71.6% EXP... and Defense of 1716 hp/s
...which is what I use on my mission oracles--pithum c-type amps--that I've been meaning to attempt a vanguard site with, along with 2 scimis and a half-assed Vulture T1 Siege booster.
it takes some trust in your logi. with the LCDFEII, the nightmare has 16,793 shield hp which is a 25s buffer before hitting armor--but one should expect more than just 4 transfers incoming when they are providing 2 energy transfers to the cap chain.
in retrospect, you could drop a tracking computer to depend on a scimi tracking link. (still, I would replace it with a LSEII, for 21,321 shield hp, and a 30s buffer assuming 3k dps omni incoming)
I recently made the transition from Nightmares to Oracles--shield fit, and I would love to say it's valid for level 4 missions and vanguards, but I haven't tried vanguards with the setup yet, and that's not the question OP asked... so suggesting Oracles would be jumping the gun. (but OP, my next thought is: Oracles) Rainf1337 on Twitch |
Zhu Dark
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 15:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
You all make great points. What it comes down to is I'm closing in on perfect gunnery support and I'm trying to decide if I should train T2 beams or pulses first. I know it's only an additional 11.5 days to hit IV in the second one so I guess it really doesn't matter.
The topic about the RNI is just that. I've got one, and wanted to find a use for it. I'm still trying to find my spot in Eve after being away for a couple of years. I already have T2 torp and wanted to know if I could reasonably postpone the train into T2 cruise.
I fly a nightmare with tachs for any mission that's not Gurista (don't run into many angels). Once I get a better handle on flying again and figure out how all the ships and systems have changed I'll figure out where I'm headed. |
Third Reich Pin-up
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 16:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gleam is terrible, large beams are fine. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
366
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 16:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
Never trained beams past small.
I have the spec book injected for medium, just always have something more useful to train. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
1615
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 16:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
oh. hey. the only reason I mentioned the ravy naven link is, the tracking formula and beam lasers is misunderstood by a lot of people, and it's easily a troll topic.
beams are just that bad. Rainf1337 on Twitch |
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Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
169
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 17:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
Strictly from a PvE perspective it's my opinion that there's no reason to fit T2 beams unless you're cheap and/or want to engage in MJD combat. You only get 3.7%-5.7% increase in damage over faction guns (large beam spec. 4 versus 5) in exchange for nearly 33% more capacitor usage, and conflagration in pulse lasers stomp all over gleam in beams like Godzilla on Tokyo when it comes to short range damage.
Faction beams are much more expensive, but unless you're kinda stupid about how you do missions they're more of a capital investment than a gank risk.
Also:
Lady Naween wrote:T2 beams are godly! Who cares about a little bit of extra cap when amarr ships should have a cap booster anyway.
If you need a cap injector to power T2 beams but you can run faction beams without one you've just freed up a mid slot for either more tank or more gank thereby making you "safer" and/or more "efficient." Amarr ships should only fit injectors when it's a performance bonus for them, and in most situations I've seen, especially with regards to the TC's nightmare (which I don't think was mentioned at the time of your post), a tracking computer will pretty much always trump 3.7%-5.7% more raw damage. |
Valleria Darkmoon
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
125
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 19:55:00 -
[22] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Valleria Darkmoon wrote:I agree that Large beams getting a 10% tracking reduction would make them pretty bad. It is so far only being discussed and for medium sized turrets only. One should add to the thread in F&ID if one has got an opinion on it. Personally do I think it is not that bad, because one gets more damage for the reduction in tracking. One can sit further out to compensate for the tracking loss, but the damage increase is really just nice.
What concerns me is that in the gate sniping situation I described earlier there are generally two decisions pilots make when they jump in and see me ~200 km away. They either assume they can align out fast enough, I can't hit them or something like this and try to warp. Because aligning from a dead stop doesn't cause you to move very much they usually take the hit and explode. The other reaction is people who burn back for the gate and that shot rarely has the damage to be lethal with only low EHP frigates like medium ASB fits ever being killed this way and about 50% of the time will miss completely even with 3 tracking enhancers fitted. The tracking is already bad enough that even very minor movements can cause a miss (even the aligning frigates would live or be missed some of the time) so I'd be pretty concerned about any reduction on this front. Now granted this is all fire directed at frigates so sig radius and resolution is a significant factor here, I never had any problems hitting industrials, destroyers and anything larger but this is also from an average range between about 190-210 km. It's pretty hard to get a firing spot much farther away than that to compensate for poor tracking, my spots were always one of several bookmarks off the gate and so was kind of a set piece and therefore pretty much useless in an engagement off the gate.
Additionally on the Oracle at least I'm already using as many sebos as I have mid slots, 1 low (sig amp) and also some of my rigs for both scan res and lock range as well as 3 lows for optimal, falloff and tracking and my skills are full level 5s for anything relevant to any of this. It's not really practical to even get the ship to be physically capable of firing much farther than that, about the only thing you could do is go nuts on implants. Since I don't do this type of sniping often anymore (too many bomber pilots have too many of my bookmarks), I'm certainly not willing to spend that kind of money on sniping. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11035
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 12:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
AFAIK there is no proposal to change large beam (or rails or arty) in the same way that mediums are being changed.
1 Kings 12:11
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Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 12:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
Shereza wrote:Strictly from a PvE perspective it's my opinion that there's no reason to fit T2 beams unless you're cheap and/or want to engage in MJD combat. You only get 3.7%-5.7% increase in damage over faction guns (large beam spec. 4 versus 5) in exchange for nearly 33% more capacitor usage, and conflagration in pulse lasers stomp all over gleam in beams like Godzilla on Tokyo when it comes to short range damage. Faction beams are much more expensive, but unless you're kinda stupid about how you do missions they're more of a capital investment than a gank risk. Also: Lady Naween wrote:T2 beams are godly! Who cares about a little bit of extra cap when amarr ships should have a cap booster anyway. If you need a cap injector to power T2 beams but you can run faction beams without one you've just freed up a mid slot for either more tank or more gank thereby making you "safer" and/or more "efficient." Amarr ships should only fit injectors when it's a performance bonus for them, and in most situations I've seen, especially with regards to the TC's nightmare (which I don't think was mentioned at the time of your post), a tracking computer will pretty much always trump 3.7%-5.7% more raw damage.
Sorry, but that 3rd TC doesn't add much for Nightmare. |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
169
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Sorry, but that 3rd TC doesn't add much for Nightmare.
I won't argue that the raw bonuses provided by a third TC over two (scripted) TCs and a TE isn't much, but then neither is the raw bonus provided by switching to T2 guns. Either way it's still an increase of 4.28% optimal range, 8.56% falloff range, and 10.07% tracking speed which I'll take over 4.7% raw damage and another module to manage.
Of course in all fairness a painter or webber would likely be a better choice for more proactive mission runners, and swapping out the TE for a DDA would certainly help kill off any tacklers that actually make it into tackle range a bit faster so there are considerations for other modules than just a tracking computer. They are also, in my opinion, better options than fitting T2 guns and a cap injector unless, as I (more or less) suggested, you're poor or very paranoid about being ganked. |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
What is so important about that cap usage? You're cap stable with T2 Tachyons, hardeners/TCs running. And you have around 1m20s of cap if running everything. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
138
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
Zhu Dark wrote:Is there any reason to actually train for t2 beams? Here's how the faction tachs and t2 tachs compare:
These numbers assume perfect gunnery, 5% implants, faction sinks, and 2 TCs (tracking) on a nightmare:
4 x Imperial Navy Tach (Imp Multi) Range: 33/25 Tracking: 0.04117 Cap Usage: 25.6/s RoF: 6.67693 seconds DPS: 1020
4 x Tach II (Imp Multi) Range: 33/25 Tracking: 0.04117 Cap Usage: 34.1/s (+33.2%) RoF: 6.67693 seconds DPS: 1077 (+5.6%)
You answered your own question... 5.6 % increase in damage. Why wouldn't you want more damage? Cap isn't an issue in level 4's since everything should be dead long before you run out of cap.
I only use Gleam if somethings really close up so that's just a slight extra benefit of T2 |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:40:00 -
[28] - Quote
Also: Tachyon Beam Laser II: 4,375 million Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser: 80 million (Hek); 83 million (Jita) |
Rain6638
Team Evil
566
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 23:04:00 -
[29] - Quote
bleh. maybe T2 tachys are ok for low-risk missions against sansha at range.
focusing on a turret type and size limits the ship selection, so without knowing the application I'd rather not spend time thinking about this.
T2 beams are at the end of my 120m sp vanity training plan [ 2013.06.21 09:52:05 ] (notify) For initiating combat your security status has been adjusted by -0.1337 yo dawg, we heard you liek industrials, so we put an industrial in yo industrial so you can loss while u loss |
Rain6637
Team Evil
1615
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 03:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
received this in an incursion channel on my way through:
"ISN HQ SECONDARY"
High power 1x Large Shield Transporter II 4x Tachyon Beam Laser II 1x Large Energy Transfer Array II Medium power 1x Sensor Booster II 1x Large Shield Extender II 3x Tracking Computer II 1x Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field 1x Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Low power 1x Damage Control II 4x Imperial Navy Heat Sink Rig Slot 1x Large Core Defense Field Extender II 1x Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II 1x Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Drones 5x Warrior II 5x Hammerhead II Rainf1337 on Twitch |
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