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Monk O'Loki
Peoples Capitalist Liberation Front Virtue of Selfishness
2
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Posted - 2013.07.29 20:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Everyone has talked about "nodes" now I have always assumed that these are groups of servers that work together to handle the I/O for specific systems or groups of systems.
Is it not possible to have all of these nodes linked up to pool all the CPU power so that if all of eve were to show up in one system it wouldn't make a difference?
It seems like there is enough computing power to handle everyone being online at the same time but just not in the same place...
I assumed this was because the least a node can handle is one solar system so if it gets taxed to 100% cpu it can't do anything else. Am I right in the assumption?
Does the code create situations where the server load increases exponentially when more and more people are on grid? Like does 100 people shooting missiles at NPCs in a 100 different systems create the same server load as 100 people in one system shooting the same NPC? |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
883
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Posted - 2013.07.29 20:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
EvE servers use a mix of DNA-Based and Quantum Cpu's.
The motherboards and HDD are made of Elerium 115. The Tears Must Flow |
Kazuma Ry
Further Logistics
16
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Posted - 2013.07.29 20:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Here is where you can find the latest published info on the servers:
Tranquility
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Monk O'Loki
Peoples Capitalist Liberation Front Virtue of Selfishness
2
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Posted - 2013.07.29 20:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kazuma Ry wrote:Here is where you can find the latest published info on the servers: Tranquility
Thanks.
So nodes are just a process, does that mean they can grow to use at max the CPU of one of the 60 SOL blades? |
Zane Lowe
Friendship is Podding Test Alliance Please Ignore
55
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Posted - 2013.07.29 20:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Monk O'Loki wrote:Kazuma Ry wrote:Here is where you can find the latest published info on the servers: Tranquility Thanks. So nodes are just a process, does that mean they can grow to use at max the CPU of one of the 60 SOL blades?
I believe that's what reinforcing a node is, basically. Giving it it's own blade |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
5390
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Posted - 2013.07.29 20:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
A hamster can only run at a sustained top speed for a short amount of time. This forced CCP to institute a rolling chute system that swaps out hamsters every 2 minutes for a fresh one. Now, due to the increased server load were seeing, CCP has begun putting 2 hamsters in the chute at any given time, thus distributing the load between them. While this goes a long way towards easing the tiring of the hamsters, it doesn't fix the problem.
Borrowing from ideas from "The Island of Dr Moreau", CCP has been tinkering with splicing DNA of hamsters and humans. The results of which can currently be seen in the cubicles at CCP headquarters. Many cubicles (read as cages) are packed tightly together, and have simple water bottles hung over the sides. The hamster/human hybrids are fed a steady diet of pellets to maintain their energy levels. Studies have shown that these hybrids will have more stamina than their purebred hamster cousins.
Construction has already begun on the larger hybrid hamster/human chutes and the larger wheels that go with them. Engineers are nearing completion of the coupling mechanisms as well. CCP is hoping to have all this work done soon(tm). Hopefully this new source of computer power will alleviate the CPU strain currently faced by the servers and make larger fleet fights possible.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Tyrendian Biohazard
Terra Rosa Militia SpaceMonkey's Alliance
96
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Posted - 2013.07.30 10:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:EvE servers use a mix of DNA-Based and Quantum Cpu's.
The motherboards and HDD are made of Elerium 115.
Great XCOM Reference. My twitch stream to help new players: http://www.twitch.tv/biohazrd51
Say NO-áto CCP-EA. -áRehabilitate Frank!! |
Medarr
ZeroSec
69
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Posted - 2013.07.30 10:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
The clusters performance is limited by python not the hardware itself. Python can only run one process per core and doesnt support multi threading. The best they can do is stackless python. |
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
484
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Posted - 2013.07.30 10:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:I assumed this was because the least a node can handle is one solar system so if it gets taxed to 100% cpu it can't do anything else. Am I right in the assumption?
Yes, you are correct. Right now the smallest grain that Eve can be broken down to is a single solar system. Theoretically it should be possible to assign a single server to a single grid within a solar system, but max battle size really wouldn't change that much.
It's very hard to multi-thread a single simulation like an Eve battle. When games are multithreaded, what you usually see is physics moved to one thread, AI to another, etc. Breaking up the main game loop into multiple threads creates some serious synchronization challenges, as well as tons of latency being introduced into the system, and there is also considerable overhead in moving data between the threads... aka it might not even be any faster.
To Multi-thread the actual space simulation within a system, CCP would have to rip out almost all of the simulation code and start from scratch with some very obscure programming models. Hardware would also likely need to be replaced/reconfigured to support something like this.
Quote:Does the code create situations where the server load increases exponentially when more and more people are on grid? Like does 100 people shooting missiles at NPCs in a 100 different systems create the same server load as 100 people in one system shooting the same NPC?
There is absolutely exponential load scaling to some degree. Systems like sharing gang bonuses and session change loads get pretty nasty as player counts increase. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15812
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Posted - 2013.07.30 10:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
mechtech wrote:It's very hard to multi-thread a single simulation like an Eve battle. When games are multithreaded, what you usually see is physics moved to one thread, AI to another, etc. Breaking up the main game loop into multiple threads creates some serious synchronization challenges, as well as tons of latency being introduced into the system, and there is also considerable overhead in moving data between the threads... aka it might not even be any faster.
To Multi-thread the actual space simulation within a system, CCP would have to rip out almost all of the simulation code and start from scratch with some very obscure programming models. Hardware would also likely need to be replaced/reconfigured to support something like this. GǪand just to continue on that, what they are doing, is working on being able to side-load certain tasks. For instance, they are developing the Gǣbran in a boxGǥ technology that relieves the system node from having to do all the set-up calculations for pilots and ships: figuring out what skills they have, what bonuses those skills entail, what the compound effect of all those bonuses mean for the ship etc. All of it is fairly calculation- and database intensive and creates a lot of work just from a single pilot. With this tech in place, they'll be able to just send that task off to a different dedicated server that does nothing but those calculations (and which can therefore be optimised for that, and that alone).
It won't help in long fleet fights, since after everyone has entered the system at the beginning, all the set-up has already been done, but it will help with the hiccups that occur when the fleet cynos or gates into the system. It will also help immensely with Jita, where almost all the current load comes from those kinds of setup tasks, as people constantly jump or undock into the system en masse. Each problem has its own solution, though, and there is no real one-size-fits-all.
The brain-in-a-box initiative is a kind of limited multi-threading, though, but just for that one task and not for the entire system simulation as a whole. Hopefully, with time, they'll be able to figure out more subtasks that can be side-loaded in a similar manner and thus get more out of the hardware. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
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CCP Falcon
3621
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Posted - 2013.07.30 11:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kinda looks like this. The desk right there is where we chain up CCP Tuxford to stop him from pushing butan
In all seriousness though, the page alreadly linked on the EVElopedia is a good start, as well as this article that was published on PC Gamer about six weeks ago. CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Team -á || -á EVE Illuminati -á || -á Live Events Organizer
@CCP_Falcon -á || -á-á@EVE_LiveEvents |
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Othran
Route One
576
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Posted - 2013.07.30 11:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tippia wrote:For instance, they are developing the GÇ£bran in a boxGÇ¥ technology
Fortunately I read further but at this point I was thinking "Its been done and it probably does relieve the system" |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
56
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Posted - 2013.07.30 11:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Kinda looks like this. The desk right there is where we chain up CCP Tuxford to stop him from pushing butan In all seriousness though, the page alreadly linked on the EVElopedia is a good start, as well as this article that was published on PC Gamer about six weeks ago.
That's a very good article.
"And if Skynet ever comes to pass, weGÇÖll know exactly who to blame." And where the main cluster is located. (Yeah, I know disconnecting main cluster wouldn't help against Skynet but still...) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15814
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Posted - 2013.07.30 12:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
Othran wrote:Tippia wrote:For instance, they are developing the GÇ£bran in a boxGÇ¥ technology Fortunately I read further but at this point I was thinking "Its been done and it probably does relieve the system" Ok, fine. Fixed.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1040
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Posted - 2013.07.30 12:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Kinda looks like this. The desk right there is where we chain up CCP Tuxford to stop him from pushing butan In all seriousness though, the page alreadly linked on the EVElopedia is a good start, as well as this article that was published on PC Gamer about six weeks ago.
Awesome!!
Now gimme a client worth of its name for my machine, not asking the moon or 128bit clients, just for my client to be a 2013 one instead of a 90's one.
Make me happy ! *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
849
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Posted - 2013.07.30 13:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:EvE servers use a mix of DNA-Based and Quantum Cpu's.
The motherboards and HDD are made of Elerium 115.
That's total misinformation!!! The Elerium 115 is the Eve server's power source. This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.-á Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless |
Short Stack122
Knights Of The Chloroform
9
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Posted - 2013.07.30 13:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Falcon, where did you find that picture of my computer? |
Jorden Ishonen
Kinetic Technologies
107
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Posted - 2013.07.30 14:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Othran wrote:Tippia wrote:For instance, they are developing the GÇ£bran in a boxGÇ¥ technology Fortunately I read further but at this point I was thinking "Its been done and it probably does relieve the system"
Gives the term "Server dump" a whole new meaning.
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Gealbhan
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
392
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Posted - 2013.07.30 14:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
The CCP servers are operated by 10,000 Ancient Egyptians, the same guys that built the pyramids because you need that kind of skill, their foreman is Dr. Who. |
Pew Terror
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.07.30 15:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
And about that world peace, can't people just not fight and be angry and stuffs? How about them hunger problem in africa? Can't they just eat and it's fixed? |
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2540
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 15:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:A hamster can only run at a sustained top speed for a short amount of time. This forced CCP to institute a rolling chute system that swaps out hamsters every 2 minutes for a fresh one. Now, due to the increased server load were seeing, CCP has begun putting 2 hamsters in the chute at any given time, thus distributing the load between them. While this goes a long way towards easing the tiring of the hamsters, it doesn't fix the problem.
Borrowing from ideas from "The Island of Dr Moreau", CCP has been tinkering with splicing DNA of hamsters and humans. The results of which can currently be seen in the cubicles at CCP headquarters. Many cubicles (read as cages) are packed tightly together, and have simple water bottles hung over the sides. The hamster/human hybrids are fed a steady diet of pellets to maintain their energy levels. Studies have shown that these hybrids will have more stamina than their purebred hamster cousins.
Construction has already begun on the larger hybrid hamster/human chutes and the larger wheels that go with them. Engineers are nearing completion of the coupling mechanisms as well. CCP is hoping to have all this work done soon(tm). Hopefully this new source of computer power will alleviate the CPU strain currently faced by the servers and make larger fleet fights possible.
More hamsters is nice, but I hope CCP remembers to train overheating to 5 this time.........
Save the hamsters y'all. |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1683
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Posted - 2013.07.30 16:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Since all modules in EVE are subject to stacking penalties, are the hamsters in CCP's server room? If you add two hamsters, does the effectiveness of hamster 2 drop to around 80%? Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
Othran
Route One
577
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Posted - 2013.07.30 16:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Othran wrote:Tippia wrote:For instance, they are developing the GÇ£bran in a boxGÇ¥ technology Fortunately I read further but at this point I was thinking "Its been done and it probably does relieve the system" Ok, fine. Fixed.
Its Iceland so I didn't want to discount any possibilities |
Arne Aratur
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.07.30 17:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
As far as i can understand a lot of the load on the servers are data going between the nodes.
Have CCP ever had any thoughts about using numascale to unify the memory
numascale explanation -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVHLFhhwgZc
Nice if CCP answered this, i'm curious if it would make a difference. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3920
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Posted - 2013.07.30 18:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:Since all modules in EVE are subject to stacking penalties, are the hamsters in CCP's server room? If you add two hamsters, does the effectiveness of hamster 2 drop to around 80%? I would have thought it would stack like the way fitting modules do.
We are talking about CPU, right? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1687
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:ElQuirko wrote:Since all modules in EVE are subject to stacking penalties, are the hamsters in CCP's server room? If you add two hamsters, does the effectiveness of hamster 2 drop to around 80%? I would have thought it would stack like the way fitting modules do. We are talking about CPU, right?
Aye. Although I can see the heat-resist hamsters being subject to stacking penalties too, hence the aforelinked fire. Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
Leigh Akiga
State War Academy Caldari State
39
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Posted - 2013.07.30 18:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
A dev said somewhere once that when a person jumps into a system, a lot of processing power is consumed by this new system figuring out what all skills you have in your head. I suspect that improvements, both future and current will have to include streamlining these types of processes. |
Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
212
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Posted - 2013.07.30 18:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
Monk O'Loki wrote:Everyone has talked about "nodes" now I have always assumed that these are groups of servers that work together to handle the I/O for specific systems or groups of systems.
Is it not possible to have all of these nodes linked up to pool all the CPU power so that if all of eve were to show up in one system it wouldn't make a difference?
It seems like there is enough computing power to handle everyone being online at the same time but just not in the same place...
I assumed this was because the least a node can handle is one solar system so if it gets taxed to 100% cpu it can't do anything else. Am I right in the assumption?
This kind of question is easy to envision and postulate, but there are so many technical aspects involved in attaining what you describe that can make or break the ability to do just that. One of these aspects is the nature of the workload itself.
You are right - multiple physical servers make up "eve" - hundreds of these create the environment. With a few exceptions, multiple solar systems are assigned to specific servers. Jita is one such exception - the load incurred by this reliably busy solar system warrants its own dedicated server node to process all that goes on there.
The ability to pool the CPU power of all servers in the infrastructure, though, is a very situational thing. The "super computers" you hear about at research universities or national labs have this capability because of hardware investment and software design is done specifically to be able to do this, largely because the software has a very, very specific task to do and those sorts of workloads are suitable for what's referred to as "parallelization."
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embarrassingly_parallel
I'm no CCP Dev, but knowing what I know, the things that go on in fights such as 6VDT and Asakai are things, from the code's POV, are not easily parallelizable and independent tasks, and are therefore not suitable or not able to be split up amongst multiple server nodes. One of the big reasons is latency - "super computers" like the ones I referred to in the previous paragraph have incredibly low-latency interconnects between them designed specifically to shuttle data between nodes with extremely low latencies. These networks are expensive to build, maintain, and require additional and complex support up through the OS and into the software (application) layer. Data must be sent to a node (latency source), received (more latency), processed (more latency) and the results sent back (more latency) - there are also issues which involve data caching and so on which, if there is a cache miss, adds even more latency. All of this stacks up, and in a very synchronous place such as Eve, such things would be intolerable.
Now, CCP has made improvements over the years as there are "parallelizable" tasks - market stuff, character stuff, chat, and so on - stuff that's not actually part of flying a ship in space - can be shuffled off to nodes dedicated for these kinds of things, therefore letting a node that is running a particular solar system to devote its resources to things which are actually flying in space.
It's kind of a fantasy to take two or more computers, somehow plug them together and get essentially 1 computer with exactly twice the power of the original and expect whatever is being ran on it to magically have the capacity to do twice what it did previously. It just doesn't work that way. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
794
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Posted - 2013.07.30 19:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
CCP is actually Skynet.
This whole game is just a cover. |
Monk O'Loki
Peoples Capitalist Liberation Front Virtue of Selfishness
2
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Posted - 2013.08.02 20:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
Thanks for the great responses and links, learned a lot!
So from what everyone said they would need customized hardware and software programmed in a custom built programming language, and to recode everything? And even then they could still run into synchronization issues?
My dreams of 10k v 10k have been crushed! |
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