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Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1291
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 20:53:00 -
[241] - Quote
well. having no timers would fix the problem of blues
of course i mean the problem that alliances still have some others not set blue. if anyone can blow up your stuff when you look away for a moment, the only way to operate is to form non-infrastructure pacts with everyone who can field a fleet of five dudes |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4000
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 22:12:00 -
[242] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:well. having no timers would fix the problem of blues
of course i mean the problem that alliances still have some others not set blue. if anyone can blow up your stuff when you look away for a moment, the only way to operate is to form non-infrastructure pacts with everyone who can field a fleet of five dudes Don't we already have a blue donut There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
179
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 01:04:00 -
[243] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:8.The redeeming value in it would be to make for more dynamic gameplay where a force density of 2000 Megathrons wasn't necessary to accomplish something. (It's hit-and-run, not hit-and-stand-around-waiting-for-an-arbitrary-timer-to-tick-down-then-slug-it-out-with-the-enemy's-main-force-and-fail-to-accomplish-the-objective-if-you-lose-that-fight.) Besides that, maybe I just don't want to play EVE on your schedule. when you say "make for dynamic gameplay" what you mean is "GSF and PL burn down every player owned structure in EVE within 24 hours"
e: except for the ones in highsec I guess because concord |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
179
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 01:07:00 -
[244] - Quote
i mean we've already seen in the east that a massed super blob can grind timerless stations in less than 10 minutes each and they have a bit more hp than towers do so guess what will happen |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4005
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 05:21:00 -
[245] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:8.The redeeming value in it would be to make for more dynamic gameplay where a force density of 2000 Megathrons wasn't necessary to accomplish something. (It's hit-and-run, not hit-and-stand-around-waiting-for-an-arbitrary-timer-to-tick-down-then-slug-it-out-with-the-enemy's-main-force-and-fail-to-accomplish-the-objective-if-you-lose-that-fight.) Besides that, maybe I just don't want to play EVE on your schedule. when you say "make for dynamic gameplay" what you mean is "GSF and PL burn down every player owned structure in EVE within 24 hours" e: except for the ones in highsec I guess because concord Yes, we went over this. Dabigredboat would ascend to godhood on the burning wreckage of every player-owned structure in not-highsec ever. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3799
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 07:27:00 -
[246] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Yes, we went over this. Dabigredboat would ascend to godhood on the burning wreckage of every player-owned structure in not-highsec ever.
Why limit yourself to outside of HS? Scout the HS moons and record every corp. Then shoot them a quick wardec. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:16:00 -
[247] - Quote
Ruby Porto wrote:1. They're sieged. They can't move, and you can't hurt them, since everyone's long since staged out of NPC null or LS. 2. Nope. You actually have to fight to defend your stuff. If you don't, the attackers roll up and stomp the structure when it comes out of RF. 3. Why would you? You can't gain any benefits from holding space, because you cannot possibly hold it. 4. Under your proposal nobody would own any space in any meaningful way. 6. A ship is piloted. A POS is not. The defender is always present when you shoot a ship. The same is not true of a structure. 7. Alavaria Fera wrote:Yes, we went over this. Dabigredboat would ascend to godhood on the burning wreckage of every player-owned structure in not-highsec ever. Why limit yourself to outside of HS? Scout the HS moons and record every corp. Then shoot them a quick wardec.
1.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties. 2.If a reinforcement timer wasn't an automatic, guaranteed defense, then there would be no reason to respond with a defense fleet. There would be nothing to defend. 3.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties. 4.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties.
6.Who cares? Why do you think POSes and other such structures should be given special exemption from being interacted with?
7.Why hasn't this happened, yet? Is it because that 5 man high sec corp has a day or two of guaranteed invulnerability, allowing them to form a "defense fleet" to fight off a 500 man blob from null sec? Pfffft . . .
Benny Ohu wrote:also the whole thing that having two fleets show up to the same place at the same time to duke it out is basically the intention of the timer mechanic
you know, having a game instead of a shitshow (i.e., the rest of EVE Online)
How do you know what the mechanic was intended to do? Do you work for CCP? And, how is not having to be present to defend your stuff a "game" versus losing what you didn't bother to protect being a "shitshow"?
Baltec1 wrote:1. Russian language it's t3h harrrrrd 2. defense it's t3h harrrrrd
The rest is just waffling about nothing.
Making defence impossible is not fixing anything, its breaking everything. Locking out people from a system is also not fixing anything and breaking everything. If you had been around as long as me you would know that every single sov owner in null has taken that sov from someone else. This idea of yours simply cannot work.
1.They fly REAL spaceships that way, with Russians, Americans, Japanese, French duders . . . I think they might have even had a Mexican one time. (I'll have to look that up.) Get an FC who knows both languages or get your plan sorted out ahead of time. 2.Ok, well, get "friends" to help you. Don't have so much stuff. Hide your stuff or put it where they can't reach or just put yourself between your stuff and the bad guys.
Sovereignty (grinding), NAP-fests, the need for genuine cooperation in EVE, force projection balance, the use of intelligence tools, and the imposition of reasonable limits on how you can interact with Tranquility are all "waffling about nothing"? You basically said that no one can take sovereignty from Goonswarm given the current game mechanics. That's not "waffling about nothing".
This idea is just a passing notion on alternatives and augmentations to "the system by which the server handles lag" a.k.a. TiDi. I mostly mention it hoping for someone to come into this thread and shoot it down in spectacular fashion and hopefully teach me something. So far, all I have seen is a bunch of null-bears complaining that it's not fair, because people would violence their space stuff. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3810
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:42:00 -
[248] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:1.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties. 2.If a reinforcement timer wasn't an automatic, guaranteed defense, then there would be no reason to respond with a defense fleet. There would be nothing to defend. 3.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties. 4.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties.
1. Groups are already staging out of NPC space and LS to avoid being hellcamped. If they can have their sov flipped overnight without any possibility of defending it (short of an inverted hellcamp to keep the system pegged at cap), who in their right mind would live in a conquerable station? 2. There not being anything to defend is a problem. 3. Your proposal guarantees the success of every attack by a group that can field a system-cap fleet. What is your proposed method to defend against this? You've already demonstrated that detecting such an attack isn't feasible under your proposed system, so how do you defend against an attack that you can't detect and cannot directly attack? Magic? 4. You don't own what you can't defend. Under your proposal, nobody can defend any space. Ergo, nobody owns any space.
Quote:6.Who cares? Why do you think POSes and other such structures should be given special exemption from being interacted with?
A pilot is guaranteed an opportunity to defend their ship (unless they do something to give that opportunity up). Why shouldn't a POS owner? Non-persistent assets (ships) are fundamentally different from persistent ones (POSes and structures).
Again, why should EVE magically limit the number of people in a system in order to guarantee the success of every single attack? Why should people not have the opportunity to defend their persistent assets? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4021
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:46:00 -
[249] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:3. Your proposal guarantees the success of every attack by a group that can field a system-cap fleet. What is your proposed method to defend against this? You've already demonstrated that detecting such an attack isn't feasible under your proposed system, so how do you defend against an attack that you can't detect and cannot directly attack? Magic? As a member of a coalition that blobs like mad, clearly you need to use The Mittani's Regards to defend. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4021
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:48:00 -
[250] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:1. Groups are already staging out of NPC space and LS to avoid being hellcamped. If they can have their sov flipped overnight without any possibility of defending it (short of an inverted hellcamp to keep the system pegged at cap), who in their right mind would live in a conquerable station? See you in 319 station ~whoooo~ There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4021
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:50:00 -
[251] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Yes, we went over this. Dabigredboat would ascend to godhood on the burning wreckage of every player-owned structure in not-highsec ever. Why limit yourself to outside of HS? Scout the HS moons and record every corp. Then shoot them a quick wardec. It's not impossible. We could clear all the areas near jita of POSes, but it would take a while for the wardec to start.
That timer needs to do, as well. It's a time in which they can prepare. We should be able to line up 1000 megas and just instantly start shooting the POS to death immediately.
Also, sadly, Boat appear loves using bombers to bomb, and I don't think Lyris Nairn intends to achieve immortality via structure shooting, so... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3811
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:51:00 -
[252] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:RubyPorto wrote:1. Groups are already staging out of NPC space and LS to avoid being hellcamped. If they can have their sov flipped overnight without any possibility of defending it (short of an inverted hellcamp to keep the system pegged at cap), who in their right mind would live in a conquerable station? See you in 319 station ~whoooo~
FWST > 319 This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4021
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:52:00 -
[253] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:RubyPorto wrote:1. Groups are already staging out of NPC space and LS to avoid being hellcamped. If they can have their sov flipped overnight without any possibility of defending it (short of an inverted hellcamp to keep the system pegged at cap), who in their right mind would live in a conquerable station? See you in 319 station ~whoooo~ FWST > 319 Karan, hth There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 09:48:00 -
[254] - Quote
since you continuously ignore the most important point here I'll put it at the top once: you can kill an unstronted tower in less than a siege cycle with a sufficient number of dreads. explain how you're proposing to form a defense in less than 5 minutes
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:1.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties. 2.If a reinforcement timer wasn't an automatic, guaranteed defense, then there would be no reason to respond with a defense fleet. There would be nothing to defend. 3.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties. 4.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties. your proposed system has some properties that we know of though: 1) a system cap of X people guarantees that the first group to stuff X people into the system wins by default because it is literally impossible for other people to contest it b) no reinforcement timer means you can shoot the structure without recourse by the defending party because due to 1) they can't even be on the same grid as the tower III) short of a massive number of spies across all alliances with a dread fleet you won't even know that your tower has died until you pull the killmail from api
there's nothing emergent and unstable about it, in fact it's pretty clear to everyone who has shot structures at some point in their eve career how a timerless tower handles, because guess what people sometimes forget to put stront in
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:7.Why hasn't this happened, yet? Is it because that 5 man high sec corp has a day or two of guaranteed invulnerability, allowing them to form a "defense fleet" to fight off a 500 man blob from null sec? Pfffft . . . it hasn't happened yet because shooting towers in subcaps while boat is leading the fleet is one of the worst possible experiences you can have in this game, worse than things like "getting shot by blap titans while blackscreened in the good old pre-tidi days" or "ratting"
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:How do you know what the mechanic was intended to do? Do you work for CCP? And, how is not having to be present to defend your stuff a "game" versus losing what you didn't bother to protect being a "shitshow"? you have to show to defend your stuff because if you don't, you'll lose your tower once it comes out of rf of course your proposed system won't have defense fleets at all because alliances all over eve have repeatedly shown that it's possible to kill an unstronted tower in a single siege cycle, good luck getting a defense fleet rallied and to your tower in 5 minutes (that's assuming you notice your tower getting shot immediately when the dreads start sieging which is ridiculous in itself)
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:This idea is just a passing notion on alternatives and augmentations to "the system by which the server handles lag" a.k.a. TiDi. I mostly mention it hoping for someone to come into this thread and shoot it down in spectacular fashion and hopefully teach me something. So far, all I have seen is a bunch of null-bears complaining that it's not fair, because people would violence their space stuff. you mentioned it because you have no idea how towers, or reinforcement timers, or sov, or dreads work |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11135
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 09:50:00 -
[255] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:well. having no timers would fix the problem of blues
of course i mean the problem that alliances still have some others not set blue. if anyone can blow up your stuff when you look away for a moment, the only way to operate is to form non-infrastructure pacts with everyone who can field a fleet of five dudes Don't we already have a blue donut
it's more of a blue croissant
1 Kings 12:11
|
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
1026
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 09:54:00 -
[256] - Quote
I now think that it's safe to say that we reached a point where all you have in this thread is :retort: and :counter-retort: [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1296
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 10:01:00 -
[257] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:also the whole thing that having two fleets show up to the same place at the same time to duke it out is basically the intention of the timer mechanic
you know, having a game instead of a shitshow
How do you know what the mechanic was intended to do? Do you work for CCP? And, how is not having to be present to defend your stuff a "game" versus losing what you didn't bother to protect being a "shitshow"? don't edit quotes. and why should i answer your questions? as well as talking from almost complete ignorance and inexperience, you ignore everything else your betters tell you. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 12:13:00 -
[258] - Quote
Ruby Porto wrote:Groups are already staging out of NPC [null] space and LS
1. . . why should EVE magically limit the number of people in a system
They must be doing that for different reasons and by a different dynamic than the one you are predicting, because what we are talking about in this thread is hypothetical. None of it affects what they do.
1.Systems have limits. Why should the system be stretched to it's limits and beyond? It's a game, and we're supposed to work within the limitations of that game. A thousand or two thousand people is a hell of a lot of people. Rather than make CCP bend over backwards to fulfill our every gaming desire, maybe we could just accept a more realistic rule-set.
Sirane Elrek wrote:1) a system cap of X people guarantees that the first group to stuff X people into the system wins by default because it is literally impossible for other people to contest it b) no reinforcement timer means you can shoot the structure without recourse by the defending party because due to 1) they can't even be on the same grid as the tower III) short of a massive number of spies across all alliances with a dread fleet you won't even know that your tower has died until you pull the killmail from api
1)How many systems do you seriously think you can cap? If you have enough players that you can cap every system in null, why shouldn't you just win the game? I don't have a problem with that. Why would you?
b)No reinforcement timer means you would have to have a networks of scouts and sentries, not to mention an emergency response fleet, and the ability to withstand attacks on important assets.
III)Even the super rich have people that manage their assets and maintain their properties. Why should you be able to AFK your space empire? Why shouldn't you or somebody have to go and look at your tower to make sure it was still there churning out ISK for you? You live in null security space. That means "no security". Well, what the hell would you call a day long cloak of invincibility for your space house or your space factory?
...
We're calling it "defense", but what we're talking about isn't actually defense. It's an ambush. Defense would be if you stationed a force near the structure to combat any force that might try to attack it. Defense is expensive, and it doesn't always work.
What we're talking about is the structure owner being notified that a force will attack his/her structure, and when that attack is likely to occur, right down to the minute. The structure owner knows the likely identity of the attackers, has a few clues as to the minimum size and composition of the force. He/she has time to do reconnassaince, to plan and to prepare for the engagement and muster up an appropriately sized force of their own. That's not a defense. That's a trap.
They say that "the things we own own us". What they mean is that we have to take care of all the stuff we have and the more we have, the more care we have to take. That's fine, but you're not explaining why you think EVE should have to take care of that stuff for you, especially when some noob in a Venture can get ganked in the blink of an eye in high sec without any recourse.
Benny Ohu wrote:don't edit quotes. shitshow |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1296
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 12:46:00 -
[259] - Quote
my game idea is that they forget this whole 'computer' thing and sell us pots of paint. we buy the paint, brush it on the ceiling, and then watch it dry. it's basically the same way mayhaw mogan wants us to play eve online but you don't have to pay internet bills and cfc don't have an advantage because there's no real ceilings in their gooncaves |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 17:39:00 -
[260] - Quote
explain how you're going to mount a defense within a single siege cycle (5 minutes)
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:1)How many systems do you seriously think you can cap? If you have enough players that you can cap every system in null, why shouldn't you just win the game? I don't have a problem with that. Why would you? enough systems at once to kill the tower I want to kill (it's one, a tower doesn't exist in multiple systems simultaneously) and when i kill the tower i can immediately afterwards cap another system and kill another tower because the first tower is dead so you don't have to cap that system anymore.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:b)No reinforcement timer means you would have to have a networks of scouts and sentries, not to mention an emergency response fleet, and the ability to withstand attacks on important assets. fine. you have a network of scouts and sentries, and a response fleet at the ready, 24 hours a day. your enemy is still one-cycling a tower (this means you have to get into the system and kill or at least tackle the dreads within 5 minutes). i dunno if you noticed it but dreads have jump drives, i.e. you can't properly preempt them on their way to shoot the tower, they just jump right next to it, push butan, and jump out.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:III)Even the super rich have people that manage their assets and maintain their properties. Why should you be able to AFK your space empire? Why shouldn't you or somebody have to go and look at your tower to make sure it was still there churning out ISK for you? yeah we have those too, they're called "space pixies"GSOL and they're the guys who tend to our towers because turns out if you drop a tower somewhere and then expect it to autonomously sh-ūt isk into your corp wallet until the end of time that isn't actually what happens
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:You live in null security space. That means "no security". Well, what the hell would you call a day long cloak of invincibility for your space house or your space factory? i'd call it a game design trade-off. if you don't have it then there's no point at all in dropping any kind of structure because it's impossible to defend. the reason for that being the point you conveniently choose to ignore continually: you can't mount a defense against an attack on structures without reinforcement timers because you don't have any reasonable amount of time (the amount of time you have is 5 minutes (please explain how to counter an attack within 5 minutes)) |
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
447
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 21:41:00 -
[261] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
Again, why should EVE magically limit the number of people in a system in order to guarantee the success of every single attack? Why should people not have the opportunity to defend their persistent assets?
Absolutely! Remove that stupid server cap. It's very un Eve ish. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4048
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 22:06:00 -
[262] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:explain how you're going to mount a defense within a single siege cycle (5 minutes) Mayhaw Morgan wrote:1)How many systems do you seriously think you can cap? If you have enough players that you can cap every system in null, why shouldn't you just win the game? I don't have a problem with that. Why would you? I wouldn't mind we just won the game like that.
By structure grinding everyone hostile to us to death. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3818
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 22:08:00 -
[263] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:They must be doing that for different reasons and by a different dynamic than the one you are predicting, because what we are talking about in this thread is hypothetical. None of it affects what they do.
1.Systems have limits. Why should the system be stretched to it's limits and beyond? It's a game, and we're supposed to work within the limitations of that game. A thousand or two thousand people is a hell of a lot of people. Rather than make CCP bend over backwards to fulfill our every gaming desire, maybe we could just accept a more realistic rule-set.
I told you exactly why they are currently doing that sometimes. Because there is the possibility of being Hellcamped into that station. Your suggestion would turn a hellcamp into something that prevents you from even logging in, along with a virtual guarantee that the station will no longer belong to you once it is attacked. Why would anyone stage in a structure that cannot be defended?
Since when does a Solar System have an arbitrary limit on how many people can be in it? How is that realistic (before you say gate limitations, remember that you can also enter systems without using gates)? How is "allow for the possibility of defense" an unreasonable request? TiDi is an elegant mechanism to deal with the fact that big fights will (and should) happen when 20,000 person strong groups go to war. The problem with your proposed limit is not the size of the limits, it's the fact that any arbitrary limits eliminate the possibility of significant fights. It's a formalized version of the problem we had before TiDi where the first side to load grid got a turkey shoot against the other side while they were black screened that.
Quote:1)How many systems do you seriously think you can cap? If you have enough players that you can cap every system in null, why shouldn't you just win the game? I don't have a problem with that. Why would you?
You only need to cap out the systems you're attacking.
Quote:b)No reinforcement timer means you would have to have a networks of scouts and sentries, not to mention an emergency response fleet, and the ability to withstand attacks on important assets.
A response fleet which has to be able to respond anywhere in less time than it takes to light a cyno and press jump. Because once a system hits your proposed population cap, no defense is possible, because nobody can enter the system. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4049
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 23:18:00 -
[264] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Quote:1)How many systems do you seriously think you can cap? If you have enough players that you can cap every system in null, why shouldn't you just win the game? I don't have a problem with that. Why would you? You only need to cap out the systems you're attacking. Quote:b)No reinforcement timer means you would have to have a networks of scouts and sentries, not to mention an emergency response fleet, and the ability to withstand attacks on important assets. A response fleet which has to be able to respond anywhere in less time than it takes to light a cyno and press jump. Because once a system hits your proposed population cap, no defense is possible, because nobody can enter the system. So basically: 1) Every newbie counts, we just need enough pilots to hit the cap first and foremost. And a proper combat fleet or two just in case we're a little short and some guys get in. 2) Titans are the best because you can nigh-instantly bridge in your system-capping fleet at once, which is possible since 3) You can pretty much instantly break sov. Which means no cynojammers. Get your system-capping fleet in position and just shoot the sov structures down with subcaps if you have to. Recommend that the newbies and multiboxed alts used to keep the system capped stay off grid if possible. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
1027
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 23:19:00 -
[265] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:stuff any hard limit, no matter how benign the reason behind it, can, and will, be exploited, no matter how you twist it, sprinkle it with spice, sugar coat it, and wrap it in candy paper. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4049
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 23:21:00 -
[266] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:stuff any hard limit, no matter how benign the reason behind it, can, and will, be exploited, no matter how you twist it, sprinkle it with spice, sugar coat it, and wrap it in candy paper. As a hard core blobber, I somehow must approve of this on some level.
One moment as I consider how to get as many accounts as possible in order to help my coalition with the next SystemCapfleet doctrine. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 00:30:00 -
[267] - Quote
Baltec1 wrote:6. And how will you [organize your space stuff in a way that makes it easy to defend and hard to attack] when there is no timers and the main powers own hundreds of supercaps?
Sirane Elrek wrote:your enemy is still one-cycling a tower (this means you have to get into the system and kill or at least tackle the dreads within 5 minutes). i dunno if you noticed it but dreads have jump drives, i.e. you can't properly preempt them on their way to shoot the tower, they just jump right next to it, push butan, and jump out.
Ruby Porto wrote:A response fleet which has to be able to respond anywhere in less time than it takes to light a cyno and press jump.
So, now, force projection is a problem? I can get on that bandwagon. That's actually an important component of the argument that TiDi gives advantage to the larger side, because the attackers are probably under TiDi (read:gimped) and the people rushing to defend against the attack are probably not under TiDi (read:moving at full speed).
Now, I understand that there are certain entities that could conceivably destroy every structure in the game if structures didn't have timers, but there is an economic impact to that, as well as a diplomatic one. They can't blow stuff up ad infinitum. They will take losses. Losses must be replaced, and if you break everyone else's stuff, they'd have to be stupid to sell you the tools you need to continue to break their stuff. Also, things just get more expensive if you are destroying everything.
You can't just put 2000 players somewhere and win the game. You have to keep them there. You have to repel other players from gaining tactical or strategic positions. You have to secure your supply routes and store ships and materials. The imbalance that reinforcement timers impose on the game is not that last day or so of invincibility so much as it is all that time of invincibility before the structure was even engaged, when it was doing its job without anyone able to interfere. It is the knowledge other entities have that if they want to strike that target, they will have to do so en masse, or not at all. It's akin to playing chess with the rule that you needed all your pieces attacking the king in order to take him off the board. And, while that rule absolutely makes a certain sense from the standpoint of game design, at the end of the day, that period of reinforcement is a bunch of wasted time that both the server and the players could put to better use sorting out who's internet space empire controlled what station or system.
Think about it: There is a lull in activity while something is coming out of reinforced, then a flurry of activity as one side tries to move the structure out of its vulnerable state and the other side tries to destroy/flip it. If you spread the potential for that activity out over a longer duration a->y, there will be less incentive for groups of players to overload the system at time z. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3820
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 00:38:00 -
[268] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote: So, now, force projection is a problem? I can get on that bandwagon. That's actually an important component of the argument that TiDi gives advantage to the larger side, because the attackers are probably under TiDi (read:gimped) and the people rushing to defend against the attack are probably not under TiDi (read:moving at full speed).
Nope, the problem is that, under your proposed system, once the attacker gets the server-cap number of people in system (doesn't matter the route they take to get there), the battle is preempted. Combine that with the fact that the attack cannot be detected in advance, and you have a situation where defense is impossible.
Quote:Now, I understand that there are certain entities that could conceivably destroy every structure in the game if structures didn't have timers, but there is an economic impact to that, as well as a diplomatic one. They can't blow stuff up ad infinitum. They will take losses. Losses must be replaced, and if you break everyone else's stuff, they'd have to be stupid to sell you the tools you need to continue to break their stuff. Also, things just get more expensive if you are destroying everything.
Under your proposed system, yes they can continue that forever, and no they won't take losses. How do you inflict losses on a server cap dread fleet? All they have to do is *be in system* to be completely safe. There's not even any reason to bring carriers to keep the dreads capped up, since they can just hang out in perfect safety in their capped out system.
Quote:Think about it: There is a lull in activity while something is coming out of reinforced, then a flurry of activity as one side tries to move the structure out of its vulnerable state and the other side tries to destroy/flip it. If you spread the potential for that activity out over a longer duration a->y, there will be less incentive for groups of players to overload the system at time z.
There will be no incentive at time Z, because the structure will be destroyed by an invulnerable server cap fleet at time A. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4054
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 00:44:00 -
[269] - Quote
If Boat is reading this, he's probably harder than a maximum hardened Caldari large POS by now. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3821
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 00:57:00 -
[270] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:If Boat is reading this, he's probably harder than a maximum hardened Amarr large POS by now. (Amarr can get harder than Caldari)
275 million EHP is pretty hard.
And still goes poof in 114 seconds to a 200 man Moros fleet. (77 Moros will, just, do it in a Siege cycle.) This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
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