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Skill Training Online
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
74
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Posted - 2013.08.02 02:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
How long must Fountain be held to turn a profit?
I have started hearing tear filled accounts from TEST and even Goons about the 'good old days' of unity. This makes me wonder what those connections were worth in terms of ISK.
TEST members in a illuminated state of explanation have offered this: GSF needed the ISK to keep existing and in a survival situation you have no friends.
GSF members indicate so such economic peril existed.
Who is right? War has decided who is left.
What is the value of an ally in EVE?
Is it merely a function of your ability to survive without them?
How long until Goons are 'in the black' following their successful campaign? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3954
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 02:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
It'll be at least a whole month just to pay off the, what is it now, 1.5 trillion, 2 trillion, maybe 3 trillion ISK we paid Black Legion?
So more like 3 months just for that. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Zane Lowe
Friendship is Podding Test Alliance Please Ignore
58
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 02:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
I heard it was 5 trillion and a copy of GTA V for every member of BL |
bloodknight2
Talledega Knights PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
128
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Posted - 2013.08.02 02:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
Zane Lowe wrote:I heard it was 5 trillion and a copy of GTA V for every member of BL
No bacon? |
Zane Lowe
Friendship is Podding Test Alliance Please Ignore
58
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Posted - 2013.08.02 02:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
bloodknight2 wrote:Zane Lowe wrote:I heard it was 5 trillion and a copy of GTA V for every member of BL No bacon?
Fit Legion doesn't eat bacon, too busy sculpting pecs |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3955
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 03:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
We tricked PL into eating bacon to make them fat and unwieldy.
Joke's n us because dabigredboat found some of the shipments. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
606
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 03:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:We tricked PL into eating bacon to make them fat and unwieldy.
Joke's on us because dabigredboat found some of the shipments.
So the whole moon story being worth less than ebfore was a made up story. You only needed more moons to pay more bacon since Boat was highjacking some shipmenst. Interesting. |
Proletariat Tingtango
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
506
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 03:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
We needed the moons for quality of life. A lot of socialism was thrown up on the chopping block pending a failure in fountain. |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1870
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 03:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
Skill Training Online wrote:How long must Fountain be held to turn a profit?
I have started hearing tear filled accounts from TEST and even Goons about the 'good old days' of unity. This makes me wonder what those connections were worth in terms of ISK.
TEST members in a illuminated state of explanation have offered this: GSF needed the ISK to keep existing and in a survival situation you have no friends.
GSF members indicate so such economic peril existed.
Who is right? War has decided who is left.
What is the value of an ally in EVE?
Is it merely a function of your ability to survive without them?
How long until Goons are 'in the black' following their successful campaign?
We had a large war chest. That war chest would have dwindled without additional income. We were not in a kill or be killed situation, we were in a "If we want to continue throwing money away like MC Hammer we need to get more income" situation. |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1870
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 03:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
I mean I was fighting for squad program isk basically. I got a stipend each month provided we were killing people. Luxury programs like that were in danger of being canceled. So war it is. I like money. |
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SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1870
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 03:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
I'm the 1% holding you down. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3956
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 03:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:I'm the 1% holding you down. I honestly enjoy being able to lose Hounds on terrible dabigredboat bombing runs almost for free.
The best part is since relatively few of us do it, we occasionally make entire fleets evaporate AND it's a strategic operations doctrine, this is unlikely to ever change, moreso now that we have new moons.
Now, if only we didn't have to end over to finish making those last payments to Black Legion, several tens of trillions by now I believe. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Capt Starfox
xX-Crusader-Xx Li3 Federation
445
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 08:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
I just wanted to shoot at stuff, call me old fashioned. Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet |
Jag Soundly
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.08.02 08:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Capt Starfox wrote:I just wanted to shoot at stuff, call me old fashioned. Nobody is talking to you.
GSF, not CFC
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Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
999
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 09:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
Marlona estimated the output of the fountain moons at <7b ISK per day. The "total isk war by alliance" graph puts the cost of the war at ~700b for CFC and friends. The average cost of a sov system seems to be ~13m ISK/day according to the CONDI finance spreadsheet. Fountain has 108 conquerable systems (which makes for a sov cost of about 1.4b per day).
So the CFC would have to hold Fountain and its moons for at least 125 days to turn a profit based on moons - if you consider that the 700b in ships could have been used otherwise the result would look significantly worse (at a relatively conservative 10% that's 2.3b ISK per day in opportunity cost), if you also consider the man hours spent structure grinding the entire venture is ridiculously unprofitable.
=> the CFC invaded Fountain because kicking over sand castles is what they enjoy doing - not because it was a sensible financial decision for the coalition as a whole based on moon income. However, the moon income goes into the wallets of a few wealthy individuals whereas most of the cost falls on the shoulders of the grunts. For the small elite that controls alliance wallets the war might look profitable because structures your members grind for you are free. |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
332
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 09:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:Marlona estimated the output of the fountain moons at <7b ISK per day. The "total isk war by alliance" graph puts the cost of the war at ~700b for CFC and friends. The average cost of a sov system seems to be ~13m ISK/day according to the CONDI finance spreadsheet. Fountain has 108 conquerable systems (which makes for a sov cost of about 1.4b per day).
So the CFC would have to hold Fountain and its moons for at least 125 days to turn a profit based on moons - if you consider that the 700b in ships could have been used otherwise the result would look significantly worse (at a relatively conservative 10% that's 2.3b ISK per day in opportunity cost), if you also consider the man hours spent structure grinding the entire venture is ridiculously unprofitable.
=> the CFC invaded Fountain because kicking over sand castles is what they enjoy doing - not because it was a sensible financial decision for the coalition as a whole based on moon income. However, the moon income goes into the wallets of a few wealthy individuals whereas most of the cost falls on the shoulders of the grunts. For the small elite that controls alliance wallets the war might look profitable because structures your members grind for you are free. In other news, running a large alliance isn't like station trading in Jita...
... and who the hell claims sov in every system?
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Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3417
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Posted - 2013.08.02 09:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:The best part is since relatively few of us do it, we occasionally make entire fleets evaporate AND it's a strategic operations doctrine, this is unlikely to ever change, moreso now that we have new moons. I'm sorry to interrupt, but this isn't actually clear to me.
As you fly with DBRB, is it your own fleets you're evaporating, or are you really, actually, talking about your enemies ? |
Capt Starfox
xX-Crusader-Xx Li3 Federation
445
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 09:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
Jag Soundly wrote:Nobody is talking to you. GSF, not CFC :( Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet |
baltec1
Bat Country
7452
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 09:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote: However, the moon income goes into the wallets of a few wealthy individuals whereas most of the cost falls on the shoulders of the grunts. For the small elite that controls alliance wallets the war might look profitable because structures your members grind for you are free.
Only in the terrible, lesser groups we kick out.
Our finances go into providing free pvp ships and activities for everyone from day one newbees to Mr. Vee. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7452
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 09:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:The best part is since relatively few of us do it, we occasionally make entire fleets evaporate AND it's a strategic operations doctrine, this is unlikely to ever change, moreso now that we have new moons. I'm sorry to interrupt, but this isn't actually clear to me. As you fly with DBRB, is it your own fleets you're evaporating, or are you really, actually, talking about your enemies ?
Both.
Theres a 50/50 chance of either bombing the enemy into dust or ourseleves. |
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Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1000
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 10:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Vera Algaert wrote: However, the moon income goes into the wallets of a few wealthy individuals whereas most of the cost falls on the shoulders of the grunts. For the small elite that controls alliance wallets the war might look profitable because structures your members grind for you are free.
Only in the terrible, lesser groups we kick out. Our finances go into providing free pvp ships and activities for everyone from day one newbees to Mr. Vee. the core point of that paragraph was "whereas most of the cost falls on the shoulders of the grunts".
your post about "free pvp activities" that your members are apparently expected to be grateful for illustrates that point very nicely. we would laugh at any corp that offers "free mining activities - give all your mined minerals to the corp, we will trash half of them and use the rest to reimburse mining barges lost to gankers". But that is exactly what is going on in pvp fleets - you aren't making any profit, you are spending a lot more in opportunity cost than your moons will ever earn. The illusion that your behavior is financially profitable only arises from the division between alliance finances and individual members' finances and the fact that the most of the cost of a war is assigned to the second category and ignored.
I'm not saying that you running unprofitable pvp fleets is any worse than running unprofitable mining fleets - some people are willing to do pvp for free, other people like to do mining for free, who am I to judge? But pretending that what you are doing is economically profitable is laughable. |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2050
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 10:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:It'll be at least a whole month just to pay off the, what is it now, 1.5 trillion, 2 trillion, maybe 3 trillion ISK we paid Black Legion?
So more like 3 months just for that. The war's over and we can stop spinning, we all know it was 750bil a week day.
As to the OPs question - CFC and TEST parted ways quite a while ago and remained blue. TEST then tried to form a super coalition to destroy us (or bare minimum, kill FA) which we weren't giant fans of to be square with you. This resulted in both sides resetting one another, about 6 months before we decided to invade.
TEST, in a startling and naive attempt at revisionist history, have claimed we backstabbed our friends by invading fountain. It's a bizarre party line that never falls apart because when you mention it to a member of TEST, they simply plug their ears and go LALLAALALALALALALALALALA.
With this in mind, the OPs question isn't really valid. TEST had a rich region that by our estimation we could take. With no standings between us we simply went and took it. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2050
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 10:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:baltec1 wrote:Vera Algaert wrote: However, the moon income goes into the wallets of a few wealthy individuals whereas most of the cost falls on the shoulders of the grunts. For the small elite that controls alliance wallets the war might look profitable because structures your members grind for you are free.
Only in the terrible, lesser groups we kick out. Our finances go into providing free pvp ships and activities for everyone from day one newbees to Mr. Vee. the core point of that paragraph was "whereas most of the cost falls on the shoulders of the grunts". your post about "free pvp activities" that your members are apparently expected to be grateful for illustrates that point very nicely. we would laugh at any corp that offers "free mining activities - give all your mined minerals to the corp, we will trash half of them and use the rest to reimburse mining barges lost to gankers". But that is exactly what is going on in pvp fleets - you aren't making any profit, you are spending a lot more in opportunity cost than your moons will ever earn. The illusion that your behavior is financially profitable only arises from the division between alliance finances and individual members' finances and the fact that the most of the cost of a war is assigned to the second category and ignored. I'm not saying that you running unprofitable pvp fleets is any worse than running unprofitable mining fleets - some people are willing to do pvp for free, other people like to do mining for free, who am I to judge? But pretending that what you are doing is economically profitable is laughable. ahahahahahahahahah you read gevlons blog "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
baltec1
Bat Country
7452
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 10:47:00 -
[24] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote: the core point of that paragraph was "whereas most of the cost falls on the shoulders of the grunts".
your post about "free pvp activities" that your members are apparently expected to be grateful for illustrates that point very nicely. we would laugh at any corp that offers "free mining activities - give all your mined minerals to the corp, we will trash half of them and use the rest to reimburse mining barges lost to gankers". But that is exactly what is going on in pvp fleets - you aren't making any profit, you are spending a lot more in opportunity cost than your moons will ever earn. The illusion that your behavior is financially profitable only arises from the division between alliance finances and individual members' finances and the fact that the most of the cost of a war is assigned to the second category and ignored.
I'm not saying that you running unprofitable pvp fleets is any worse than running unprofitable mining fleets - some people are willing to do pvp for free, other people like to do mining for free, who am I to judge? But pretending that what you are doing is economically profitable is laughable.
Our mining activities tend to involve destroyers, explosions and overflowing buckets.
Also you only calculated the r64 moons yes? You need to add in everything else. |
Joss56
Kernel of War Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 10:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
+1 to set another region on fire
Or is this about pve? |
Laserak
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 12:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Zane Lowe wrote:I heard it was 5 trillion and a copy of GTA V for every member of BL
I am ratting right now to help pay for black legion |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8521
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 12:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:However, the moon income goes into the wallets of a few wealthy individuals whereas most of the cost falls on the shoulders of the grunts. For the small elite that controls alliance wallets the war might look profitable because structures your members grind for you are free.
yeah uh no it doesn't Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8521
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 12:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
if our members were concerned about how flying in fleet ops comes at a cost to them because they could instead spend that time making isk, they'd be in hisec Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
387
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 13:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
I do all of my bearing while on ops.
It's not that hard to scan a couple sites while storing at a titan. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8521
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 13:14:00 -
[30] - Quote
but why go on the op instead of making even more isk?
didn't vera algaert tell you, the total amount of isk in your wallet is like a score Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
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