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Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
101
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Posted - 2013.08.08 16:54:00 -
[61] - Quote
Renee Khalida wrote:It's a little more complex than Angels = Bad, I'm afraid. In between the blacks and whites of villains and good guys are the shades of grey - we can call this...the gradient!
Much of the Cartel's work lies in that area. I could list the good that the Cartel has brought to the cluster and the debt it is owed, but I fear that we are already far from the topic, so I too will not belabor a point.
The fact that you believe the Cartel is owed a debt for doing "good" speaks to how twisted the Cartel is.
Quote:I believe Msr. Syagrius' little 'paradox' there perfectly underlines the issue in this topic. Bloody Hands of Matar are going around, causing havoc and mayhem, and Republicans are, in response yelling 'but but, Angels are evil!'
Do you need to borrow those literacy books I mentioned before? The complaint about Angels being bad is completely unrelated to the actions of the Bloody Hands of Matar, which we have also decried as bad.
See, we're fully capable of calling more than one group out as being bad. |
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
222
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Posted - 2013.08.08 17:38:00 -
[62] - Quote
Kalaratiri wrote: Hey Caine. Go **** yourself.
My my, look what crawled out of the woodwork. With naysayers like you however, I don't need sycophants. That is to say, keep proving my 'wild dogs' theory right. We'll say I owe you a drink, hm?
Katarina Musana wrote:The complaint about Angels being bad is completely unrelated to the actions of the Bloody Hands of Matar...
My point exactly. Ergo, I don't see an alternative to why would someone try to derail the thread with such pitiful ad hominem attacks besides... well, besides for what I already mentioned.
Quote:...which we have also decried as bad.
Um. I'm sorry, but no you haven't. The only comment in this thread about the topic at hand, coming from a pro-republican was mr. Ugleb's apologetic attempt at washing the shame from the Bloody Hand. Then when that didn't work, let's go derail it by pointing out how we are opressed by Amarrians or how Angels are evil. You know, the usual stuff.
Speaking of which, I won't let you drag me into the derailment. Have a nice day, ladies and keep up the good work. - Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim ___________________________ Angels are never far... Stillwater Corporation recruitment open. |
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient Electus Matari
83
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Posted - 2013.08.08 17:50:00 -
[63] - Quote
Leopold Caine wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:...which we have also decried as bad. Um. I'm sorry, but no you haven't.
I think you'll find that we have.
But just in Case you need it in this thread as well as in the one relevant to the attack itself, we utterly condemn the actions of the Bloody Hands of Matar and will be acting in concert with the relevant authorities to bring those responsible for the attack on Atlanins to Justice.
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Kalaratiri
Lutinari Syndicate Electus Matari
284
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Posted - 2013.08.08 18:41:00 -
[64] - Quote
Leopold Caine wrote:Kalaratiri wrote: Hey Caine. Go **** yourself.
My my, look what crawled out of the woodwork. With naysayers like you however, I don't need sycophants. That is to say, keep proving my 'wild dogs' theory right. We'll say I owe you a drink, hm?
I've been gone for a year and you're still the biggest ******* in the cluster.
We'll say if you buy me that drink I'll do the world a favour, pour it on your head and light it on fire. |
James Syagrius
Stillwater Corporation
499
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Posted - 2013.08.09 01:35:00 -
[65] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:James Syagrius wrote:You say "Angel" as if its a bad thing. Oh that's right honest villains bother hypocrites like you and yours. I'm trying to follow here, sir, and I have to ask. In the first line, you suggest that being an Angel is a good thing. Its alright my dear I have been known to contradict myself within a single sentence and often confuse myself.
But no, I don't think being an "Angel" makes me any better or worse "individually" than I ever was or will be.
Scherezad wrote:In the second, you point out that Angels are villains - definitively bad. That an Angel may be honest (a positive trait in some circumstances) does not nullify the negativity of the term. As to honest villains. I try not to make excuses for my actions or associations. While my dealings are anything but transparent I don't deny being a "villain". If indeed that is what I am. I will not tell you I am one thing, when I am another.
Scherezad wrote:Was this an intentional contradiction? Yes and no.
But if I may pose a question to you, are you implying that being an "Angel" makes someone "bad" in and of itself? GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
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James Syagrius
Stillwater Corporation
499
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Posted - 2013.08.09 02:04:00 -
[66] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Angel is a bad thing Syagrius, no matter how you Stillwater pilots try to dress it up. Did I try to "dress it up"?
I belive I admitted to what I was and am.
Anabella Rella wrote:The Angel Cartel is the largest criminal enterprise in New Eden. Your corporation and your Cartel associates are involved in: murder, kidnapping, drug trafficking, human trafficking and slavery, prostitution, extortion and piracy. Guardian Angels aided the Serpentis attacks on Evaulon that totally destroyed the city of Rilanis, killing thousands in the process. I could go on but no need to belabor the point. Well that explains whey there are so may Matar in our ranks.
But never your fear, the more Gallenteans that join the more sophisticated and efficient our operations will become.
Anabella Rella wrote:Also, get your facts straight. No one in Gradient killed any Federation citizens in Colelie. That was the work of the Republic Fleet. Of course, you know that and are attempting to turn the spotlight away from your own misdeeds. No one in Gradient shot at anyone in Colelie!
Now that is a supprise.
It makes your next statement that much more confusing.
Anabella Rella wrote:As to your assertion that we chose our people over what was "right"; we responded to a call for assistance from a recognized government official. We acted in good faith with the limited information we had at the time. This has been explained and discussed ad nauseum in this medium so there's no need for me to say anything else on the topic. However, do feel free to continue beating this particular dead horse. The carcass may still have a few unscathed millimeters of surface area for you to work with. So these "recognized governmental officials", make your actions.. oh wait I forgot, "No one in Gradient killed any Federation citizens in Colelie."
So how again did you act in good faith?
What did you do then exactly?
It appears when you do something villainous you chastise other for "beating dead horses" and deny it.
Hypocrite indeed.
Anabella Rella wrote:Congratulations for owning up (kind of) to what you Angel supporters are but, in the end an "honest villain" (an oxymoron if ever I heard one) is still a villain. I suppose all I can say to that stinging retort... "know thyself." GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
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Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
883
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Posted - 2013.08.09 06:27:00 -
[67] - Quote
Again, get your facts straight. We followed the request of the Republic Fleet by showing up in Colelie. When it became apparent what was happening members of EM attempted to de-escalate the situation. Unfortunately all attempts to broker a peaceful resolution made by our pilots, as well as others, failed. Also, I didn't say no one was fired upon. I said we didn't kill any Federation personnel.
I'd love to stay and debate this matter with you further but, there are Angel ships and assets infecting Republic space that need to be cleared out. I'll think of you when I'm spending the bounty money, dear James. Cheers! I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused. |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1058
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Posted - 2013.08.09 14:23:00 -
[68] - Quote
Thank you for the clarification, sir. I think I understand.
James Syagrius wrote:Yes and no.
But if I may pose a question to you, are you implying that being an "Angel" makes someone "bad" in and of itself? Well. If one wants to be precise, "good" and "bad" are heuristic models used by a model to predict future behaviour, which makes the question a little moot, as we're talking about separate things. However, being involved with the Angels does often get one cast into the "bad" model, as it's a predominant association, and useful for behaviour prediction.
I'm sorry, maybe I'm getting too technical. I suppose the my answer is "yes and no" also. |
Laria Raven
Stillwater Corporation
40
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Posted - 2013.08.09 17:42:00 -
[69] - Quote
It's a little amusing to have a member of an organisation famed for its inflexibility, its intransigence and its dogmatic bullying referring to other people as brick walls.(1)
We are more like a river. You can stand in our way, but we will just flow around you. Also, you'll get wet and look a bit silly.
(1) For the avoidance of doubt, I'm talking about Gradient. It's good for corporations to occasionally be annoying, but in general, I think it's better if you annoy your enemies more than you annoy your allies. Fallen from grace. And as night comes, may flights of Angels visit your sleep... shoot your ships and steal all of your stuff. |
James Syagrius
Stillwater Corporation
503
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Posted - 2013.08.10 02:18:00 -
[70] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:I'd love to stay and debate this matter with you further but, there are Angel ships and assets infecting Republic space that need to be cleared out. I'll think of you when I'm spending the bounty money, dear James. Cheers! GÇïIts always nice to be remembered kindly. GÇï GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
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Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
1092
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Posted - 2013.08.10 05:05:00 -
[71] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote: Also, I didn't say no one was fired upon. I said we didn't kill any Federation personnel.!
But you know this to be a false statement Ana, your concentrated firepower was part of the effort to break the defensive capabilities of the Moros vessels and thus cause the deaths of the Federal crews on board.
You might not have been the final blow that caused the explosion, but you are by no means innocent. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
559
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Posted - 2013.08.10 12:01:00 -
[72] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:Thank you for the clarification, sir. I think I understand. James Syagrius wrote:Yes and no.
But if I may pose a question to you, are you implying that being an "Angel" makes someone "bad" in and of itself? Well. If one wants to be precise, "good" and "bad" are heuristic models used by a model to predict future behaviour, which makes the question a little moot, as we're talking about separate things. However, being involved with the Angels does often get one cast into the "bad" model, as it's a predominant association, and useful for behaviour prediction. I'm sorry, maybe I'm getting too technical. I suppose the my answer is "yes and no" also.
Models used by a model ? |
TomHorn
Caldari Waffen Legion
107
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Posted - 2013.08.10 12:36:00 -
[73] - Quote
The man, has now been identified as Kinhar Elokur, a Republic citizen and student with the University of Caille.
A protest outside the facility where Elokur is being held numbered in the dozens, mostly consisting of fellow Minmatar. The protestors chanted and held signs advocating Elokur's immediate release.
source http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/minmatar-call-for-release-of-imprisoned-brutor-student/ |
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
266
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Posted - 2013.08.10 13:09:00 -
[74] - Quote
Gotta say, the 'legal experts' have a point here. |
TomHorn
Caldari Waffen Legion
107
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Posted - 2013.08.10 13:23:00 -
[75] - Quote
Looks after this recent report that the Federation are going to charge this young male with murder. After the recent report on the Federation claiming widespread discrimination against the Minmater within the Federation, it is unlikey he will receive a fair trial, If he does end up being charged and going to court.
I can see more outbreaks of violence between these groups in the future. Riots or disturbances, or even more terrorist attacks on the Federation by the Bloody Hands of Matar if the Brutor male is not released. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
559
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Posted - 2013.08.11 10:23:00 -
[76] - Quote
What are the exact laws applying here ? Without knowing that in the first place, it is purely vain to speculate.
In some places, safe defense can be invoked for pretty much everything and people can get away with it. In some other places, safe defense is barely a way to plead one's case and/or to lighten the sentence. |
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient Electus Matari
84
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Posted - 2013.08.11 10:56:00 -
[77] - Quote
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:Gotta say, the 'legal experts' have a point here.
Working purely from the Released Information, there's not enough to conclusively say one way or another. All we really know is that a Group of Gallente Nationals attacked a Student who was a Republic National (Not just of Matari Origin) and in the process, 3 of the Attackers were Fatally Injured.
We have no idea of how large a group were involved in the attack only that it was at least 3 and no reports of the extent of the injuries to the student.
I can immediately give 3 Scenarios that would give the result that the "Experts" are claiming to be impossible.
- The Student managed to reach a vehicle to escape. The men were fatally injured by the vehicle leaving the scene. This is most likely if there were more than the 3 Killed attackers involved in the assault
- The Attackers were Fanatics. From experience, many such groups tend to fight to the last man even when it is clear that victory, or even survival, is impossible.
- The Attackers were dosed up on Boosters. Many such drugs have the effect of both increasing aggression and reducing self preservation. |
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
279
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Posted - 2013.08.11 11:06:00 -
[78] - Quote
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:Working purely from the Released Information, there's not enough to conclusively say one way or another. All we really know is that a Group of Gallente Nationals attacked a Student who was a Republic National (Not just of Matari Origin) and in the process, 3 of the Attackers were Fatally Injured.
We have no idea of how large a group were involved in the attack only that it was at least 3 and no reports of the extent of the injuries to the student.
I can immediately give 3 Scenarios that would give the result that the "Experts" are claiming to be impossible.
- The Student managed to reach a vehicle to escape. The men were fatally injured by the vehicle leaving the scene. This is most likely if there were more than the 3 Killed attackers involved in the assault
- The Attackers were Fanatics. From experience, many such groups tend to fight to the last man even when it is clear that victory, or even survival, is impossible.
- The Attackers were dosed up on Boosters. Many such drugs have the effect of both increasing aggression and reducing self preservation.
Fair points, well made. I wasn't claiming that it was open-and-shut by any means, merely remarking that the situation must have been unusual in some fashion. Those scenarios also qualify as explanations. |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
285
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Posted - 2013.08.11 12:17:00 -
[79] - Quote
Maybe he is psychic and pre-emptively defended himself against the alleged attackers, who he thought might attack him. |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
837
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Posted - 2013.08.11 13:38:00 -
[80] - Quote
Speaking from personal experience, I can also come up with another example where those experts would be wrong: the 3 attackers were friends. Friends are more likely to keep fighting, because suddenly you have the impromptu addition of personal vengeance to the mix.
And let's face it: when three people attack you at the same time, deadly force is perfectly justified if you cannot subdue your attackers through other means.
Something that's just slightly difficult to do when you're having to keep track of multiple people trying to harm or kill you at the same time. Morwen Lagann Director, Tyrathlion Interstellar |
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1397
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Posted - 2013.08.11 17:37:00 -
[81] - Quote
This is standard procedure. Whenever you have a bodycount you need to make sure you follow the procedure. Whether these Gallente students were the agressors or not, they have families and those families need to be reassured that all the facts of the matter were properly gone into.
The Brutor student killed three men. Unless he's a product of some outstanding school of martial arts there has to be some question about how this was achieved. There also has to be some question as to what point he used lethal force to defend himself - was he capable of withdrawing? Had the confrontation become physical already, or was it at the pushing and shouting stage? Did the three persist in their efforts to attack him until the end, or did they try and withdraw, with him pursuing and killing them? Did the Brutor use an illegal weapon to defend himself?
All these questions must be ascertained. It is quite possible for the Brutor student to have been defending himself and yet to have broken the law egregiously. If he has broken the law, then he should be served with due process. |
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
105
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Posted - 2013.08.12 05:25:00 -
[82] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:This is standard procedure. Whenever you have a bodycount you need to make sure you follow the procedure. Whether these Gallente students were the agressors or not, they have families and those families need to be reassured that all the facts of the matter were properly gone into.
The Brutor student killed three men. Unless he's a product of some outstanding school of martial arts there has to be some question about how this was achieved. There also has to be some question as to what point he used lethal force to defend himself - was he capable of withdrawing? Had the confrontation become physical already, or was it at the pushing and shouting stage? Did the three persist in their efforts to attack him until the end, or did they try and withdraw, with him pursuing and killing them? Did the Brutor use an illegal weapon to defend himself?
All these questions must be ascertained. It is quite possible for the Brutor student to have been defending himself and yet to have broken the law egregiously. If he has broken the law, then he should be served with due process.
While it does seem suspicious to me, you make a good point, Pieter. On the other hand, this is also a more delicate situation than such a thing would normally be. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1397
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Posted - 2013.08.12 06:45:00 -
[83] - Quote
Deaths are always delicate, Katarina. In my opinion suspicions are best laid to rest by investigating - business as usual. |
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
105
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Posted - 2013.08.12 19:33:00 -
[84] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Deaths are always delicate, Katarina. In my opinion suspicions are best laid to rest by investigating - business as usual.
I meant politically delicate, but yes, I agree. I just hope the investigators are both impartial and forthcoming. |
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2013.08.12 20:05:00 -
[85] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Deaths are always delicate, Katarina. In my opinion suspicions are best laid to rest by investigating - business as usual. I meant politically delicate, but yes, I agree. I just hope the investigators are both impartial and forthcoming. And I'm sure that if the investigators aren't suitably forthcoming, the Republican Fleet will be. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1404
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Posted - 2013.08.13 00:06:00 -
[86] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Deaths are always delicate, Katarina. In my opinion suspicions are best laid to rest by investigating - business as usual. I meant politically delicate, but yes, I agree. I just hope the investigators are both impartial and forthcoming.
I hope politics is kept out of it as far as possible. That's the only way to MAKE this impartial.
This is a complex investigation with many facets that need to be examined minutely. Give the investigators time and the space they need to do their jobs. If it's any consolation, I would consider the Brutor student to be a vital person of interest in the case and would also have had him detained.
It's far too easy to slip onto a shuttle and be across the border. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1406
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Posted - 2013.08.13 00:42:00 -
[87] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Deaths are always delicate, Katarina. In my opinion suspicions are best laid to rest by investigating - business as usual. I meant politically delicate, but yes, I agree. I just hope the investigators are both impartial and forthcoming. And I'm sure that if the investigators aren't suitably forthcoming, the Republican Fleet will be.
Well, if the Republic Fleet wants to threaten safe navigation in Federation border systems with Dreadnought wreckage again, they should remember that the cost of clearing up everytime they 'whelp' a fleet is more than paid for by the salvage. |
Andrea Okazon
Alexylva Paradox
117
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Posted - 2013.08.13 01:51:00 -
[88] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:This is standard procedure. Whenever you have a bodycount you need to make sure you follow the procedure. Whether these Gallente students were the agressors or not, they have families and those families need to be reassured that all the facts of the matter were properly gone into.
The Brutor student killed three men. Unless he's a product of some outstanding school of martial arts there has to be some question about how this was achieved. There also has to be some question as to what point he used lethal force to defend himself - was he capable of withdrawing? Had the confrontation become physical already, or was it at the pushing and shouting stage? Did the three persist in their efforts to attack him until the end, or did they try and withdraw, with him pursuing and killing them? Did the Brutor use an illegal weapon to defend himself?
All these questions must be ascertained. It is quite possible for the Brutor student to have been defending himself and yet to have broken the law egregiously. If he has broken the law, then he should be served with due process.
This post was useful in levelling my mood. Thank you. |
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
110
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Posted - 2013.08.13 06:41:00 -
[89] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Deaths are always delicate, Katarina. In my opinion suspicions are best laid to rest by investigating - business as usual. I meant politically delicate, but yes, I agree. I just hope the investigators are both impartial and forthcoming. I hope politics is kept out of it as far as possible. That's the only way to MAKE this impartial.
Yeah, but politics is like sand. It gets everywhere.
Quote:This is a complex investigation with many facets that need to be examined minutely. Give the investigators time and the space they need to do their jobs. If it's any consolation, I would consider the Brutor student to be a vital person of interest in the case and would also have had him detained.
It's far too easy to slip onto a shuttle and be across the border.
I agree, and as far as I know, it would be handled the same way in most of the Republic. The political context, however, is what makes the whole situation dicey.
For now, though, we can only wait and see what happens. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1412
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Posted - 2013.08.13 07:58:00 -
[90] - Quote
Indeed. Heat coffee. Acquire Donuts. Read Paper.
Commence investigation. |
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