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phillip duncan
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Posted - 2005.12.19 21:54:00 -
[1]
Once the issues generated by RMR being released could the dev's and GM's sit down in a room and decide on a new approach to identifying macro miners?
given the rapid raise in macro mining and the effect on mineral prices in Eve something must be done. The GM's are doing that they can but there is a limit to the time they have available to investigate people exploiting Eve.
There has been a number of suggestions made to deal with this problem. I personally think it is impossible for CCP and the players to stop macro-mining, however it we make it to costly they will move else were to make there money.
I think this is that we should aim for. Some players have already taken it into there own hands, using alt's to suicide attack, bumping them etc. That ever CCP decide to do I hope you do not follow SOE example.
Some of the idea's that have been suggested:
Mini games that improve mining performance so players get an advantage over macros.
Simple puzzles that would be hard to macro.
NPC rats in all sec to deal with macro-miners
Timers limiting the number of hours you can play.
A new division of ISD to gather the information for the GM to review. The players that to stop this as well.
Use of punk buster/ warden type software. something that could be incorporated into client to look for repetitive pattens indicating macro use. possible a fail positive is deliberately sent every X hour play and is ignored so that it cannot be blocked.
I and I think others would some sort of stats board showing the number of partitions, investigations and bans that have been issued on a monthly basis so we can actually see how hard you actually work and not be left with the impression not much is done.
I have posted this in the general discussion as there are no new ideas here. I am attempting to get CCP to improve the time taken to deal with macro's.
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Galk
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:02:00 -
[2]
Ok, ill say it again.
I don't see why 'i' should be punished as a customer of over 2 years by being forced to play 'mini games' or having my account cut off as your suggesting over a certain ammount of time because there are people exploiting the game.
That seems out of order to me, your saying i can't play for what i pay for, doesn't go well down here, no matter what your intentions. ______
Seasons greetings, merry christmas to one and to all.
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:05:00 -
[3]
CCP IS looking into the macro problem, just becuase they can't magic a solution out of the air and don't give you up to the last second accounts of their progress in this area doesn't mean things are not being done.
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Corvus Dove
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:07:00 -
[4]
The key is to remove profitability. Banning accounts just means new accounts.
The players are the ones in best position to eliminate macrominers. CCP, therefore, provides tools that force macrominers to not only change to less profitable tactics, but run greater risk of having 5 hours of macromining disappear in a fireball.
If you ask me, it's not that CCP isn't taking action, it's that you arent' recognizing the action CCP is taking. ----------------------------------------------- MAKE THE MACROERS SCREAM |
phillip duncan
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:09:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Galk Ok, ill say it again.
I don't see why 'i' should be punished as a customer of over 2 years by being forced to play 'mini games' or having my account cut off as your suggesting over a certain ammount of time because there are people exploiting the game.
That seems out of order to me, your saying i can't play for what i pay for, doesn't go well down here, no matter what your intentions.
It is not an option I like my self that or the puzzles, I prefer the ISD/ Punk buster option myself, however I felt that it needed to be included for completeness.
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Saul Thrace
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:11:00 -
[6]
Mini games, puzzles, etc - all very easily defeated. Just look at what is done by macros in eq2. You wouldn't believe the level of complexity those things can be programmed to.
Plus, no one in their right mind would want to play 'minigames'. Seriously.
Join the suicide kessies with an alt or fund orginazations like Reservoir Dogs. That's the right way to do it (along with petitioning, or course ;-)
-- Saul Thrace |
Trev Kachanov
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: phillip duncan Once the issues generated by RMR being released could the dev's and GM's sit down in a room and decide on a new approach to identifying macro miners?
given the rapid raise in macro mining and the effect on mineral prices in Eve something must be done. The GM's are doing that they can but there is a limit to the time they have available to investigate people exploiting Eve.
There has been a number of suggestions made to deal with this problem. I personally think it is impossible for CCP and the players to stop macro-mining, however it we make it to costly they will move else were to make there money.
I think this is that we should aim for. Some players have already taken it into there own hands, using alt's to suicide attack, bumping them etc. That ever CCP decide to do I hope you do not follow SOE example.
Some of the idea's that have been suggested:
Mini games that improve mining performance so players get an advantage over macros.
Simple puzzles that would be hard to macro.
NPC rats in all sec to deal with macro-miners
Timers limiting the number of hours you can play.
A new division of ISD to gather the information for the GM to review. The players that to stop this as well.
Use of punk buster/ warden type software. something that could be incorporated into client to look for repetitive pattens indicating macro use. possible a fail positive is deliberately sent every X hour play and is ignored so that it cannot be blocked.
I and I think others would some sort of stats board showing the number of partitions, investigations and bans that have been issued on a monthly basis so we can actually see how hard you actually work and not be left with the impression not much is done.
I have posted this in the general discussion as there are no new ideas here. I am attempting to get CCP to improve the time taken to deal with macro's.
Time limits? NO, Puzzles? NO, NPC rats? Sure whatever, Mini Games? GHEY
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Trev Kachanov
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:16:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Saul Thrace Mini games, puzzles, etc - all very easily defeated. Just look at what is done by macros in eq2. You wouldn't believe the level of complexity those things can be programmed to.
Plus, no one in their right mind would want to play 'minigames'. Seriously.
Join the suicide kessies with an alt or fund orginazations like Reservoir Dogs. That's the right way to do it (along with petitioning, or course ;-)
QFE
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Rooman Black
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:20:00 -
[9]
Lol mini games. If you want to play mini games go download puzzle pirates.
Seriosly tho is this macro miner thing such a huge problem?
Someone dived into a belt where I was mining in a frig with my other frig on defense and another player and his barge and CORP mate running industrials and started on about us being macro miners despite the fact that we where laughing at him.
Seems to me that anyone mining is charged with being a macro...people do actually mine with friends and CORP mates. I've just spent a few hours doing it while reading he forums.
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Arkanin
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:24:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Arkanin on 19/12/2005 22:25:42 I think the best way to reduce macromining is with anti-cheat software like Blizzard's Warden. This has its costs. It will slow development of the rest of the game's expansions, and it will possibly require CCP to hire more people.
Do I still think CCP should do this? Absolutely. CCP should also start taking a much stronger stance against Ebay ISK selling, like Blizzard does with WoW gold. It is much easier to get in trouble in WoW buying this stuff as ebay's accounts and auctions are aggressively closed, since Blizzard has been much more noisy about trying to get ebay to stop this sort of thing.
I think these are the best admittedly flawed solutions we have access to when it comes to this problem. Just my two cents.
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Tos' Lavoch
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:29:00 -
[11]
Give me a licence to kill, seriously.
I'll sign anything you want to say I won't abuse my power but I'll gladly fire the gun that helps wipe these people out if only they'd let me.
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Arhab
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:31:00 -
[12]
I read the forums, watch a DVD etc while i mine. These guys run 8 barges a defender and a hauler and arent even behind the computer yet they play 23 hours a day. Aside from the fact thay they drop mineral prices by dumping large amounts on the market, they also completely strip my entire mining area clean forcing me to relocate.
They are a big problem for a lot of us builders, if nothing is done the entire production economy will become boring and people will leave this game for something new.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:33:00 -
[13]
i'd go for rats in all secs
Where is my I-win button, CCP? |
Fooball
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:34:00 -
[14]
At least the puzzle thing would work. I posted a long one on the feedback&ideas a while ago. It just requires that the puzzles change (scriptable content) and are thought out very well so that the macroing systems can't adapt fast enough. It also must not be too much of a work (couple seconds and couple clicks per hour) and requires smart timing systems not to make afk miners' life horrible. It also has to embed into the game. But it's doable and correctly done 100% effective.
However I don't think anymore that macros are such a nuisance. It's cheaper and more reliable to pay a little chinese girl 1$/day to play with 20 clients simultaneously. They have 0 risk of losing their skill training towards the Covetor and it really works and is effective.
For that reason I think that most of non-responsive miners accused of macroing in the game are not really macroing. They are more like sweatshop things. And that's far far harder to detect or deter.
I heard a true story from someone that he has a web cafe and subscribes into many MMOs. He let's the users to PAY him for the right to play games like WoW and Eve. He teaches people to mine and farm. The people get entertainment and he gets all the virtual money. Which he sells at ebay. But it's just one single example... There are lots of different kinds of schemes.
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Teles666
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:34:00 -
[15]
If you say that the problem cannot be beaten by technology you have to look at game mechanics to discourage it.
I would say the best way is to allow players to war dec - but the problem is they are always in npc corps. You cannot impose limitations on npc corps - simply because macro's would still do it, and if you made the limitations severe enough for them not to new players would be crippled.
A simple answer would be allow a limited war dec of npc corps.
You would have to discourage it being used a griefing tool - maybe if your entire corp became kos for station sentries belonging to the npc corp.
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Martin Gore
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:35:00 -
[16]
Anyone's account that mines for over 20hrs a day has to be a macro... it's not humanly possible to mine that long day after day. CCP can afford to ban loads of accounts now as we have so many subdcriptions, without hurting the profit.
I think the players will sort this problem out. It's not like they can form an alliance and take over any areas. So they are stuck 0.5 and above. If we make their life hell then they will just not bother after a wile if it becomes too costly.
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ToxicFire
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:35:00 -
[17]
Intresting post. A little naive i think, I agree macro miners are one heck of a big problem, but there is very little ccp can do without upseting the existing population, im going to take a recent example which is based on my opinion and no certain fact, the font change with RMR, in my opinion that was an attempt to hinder macro'ers admitted it wouldn't take too long to get around but it all add's to stopping it especially those downloading macro's as they have to wait for the coders to re write them. But just look at how it anoyyed the general populace.
But to go through your idea's Mini Puzzles -- Will fail within a week when someone writes a macro to deal with them. Meanwhile true players will get frustrated at having this thing they have to do thats hindering gameplay plus it takes dev time away from the game.
NPC rats in all systems -- well I've seen macroers in 0.5 and lower, but how hard are the rats gonna be in a 1.0 system couple of sheild boosters and the macroers could just sit there out boosting the rats.
Timers limiting play -- Oh you don't want to know how much of a rukus this would cause, rember players are paying customers if timers came into play most would want a refund or reduction in prices, CCP can't then maintain eve's superb level of uniqueness and goodness.
A new division of ISD to gather the information for the GM to review. The players that to stop this as well. ---- Lets working the human factor here, ego, vengence, jealousy, plain stupidity, your going to have thousands up thousands of reports that are pure fiction.
Use of punk buster/ warden type software -- Macro systems run above the system would just look like user input, repetitive patterns have been something macroer's have long been able to disguise. As for a fail positive, macroer's will build in redundancy while true players that have this happen during combat and loose valuable stuff for this will probably jam the petition system demanding replacements.
Stats boards is a good idea, tends to highlight name and shame people which is rather effective.
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Ender's Shadow
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:36:00 -
[18]
With RMR released CCP has allowed another step in player intervention on Macro miners. You're allowed to shoot players who take things from your can. You can steal from a macro miners can, make your own in then same place, and then destroying him when he takes from it.
Modulated Stip Miner II's anyone? |
Fooball
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:42:00 -
[19]
Originally by: ToxicFire Mini Puzzles -- Will fail within a week when someone writes a macro to deal with them. Meanwhile true players will get frustrated at having this thing they have to do thats hindering gameplay plus it takes dev time away from the game.
No it doesn't work like that at all. The idea is far more novel and working than what you think. There would be thousands of tiny puzzles, all changing. It's very easy to come up with extremely simple tasks that are extremely easy for humans but hard for macroing systems. Also they would be like content. Fed from the server side. Meaning they can keep changing them.
There wouldn't be much hindering gameplay either since all it requires is thinking for 0.1 seconds and one swipe with mouse. Per for instance an hour. 2 seconds of your time for an hour isn't unreasonable. Besides even AFK miners must sometimes restart their mining lasers. That's a good spot.
It wouldn't take much devs' time either. Technically it isn't very challenging if you compare it to the stuff they are for instance battling atm hotfixing the damned cluster. It's more like one afternoon from them.
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Fooball
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:43:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Saul Thrace Mini games, puzzles, etc - all very easily defeated. Just look at what is done by macros in eq2. You wouldn't believe the level of complexity those things can be programmed to.
The point would be that there would be 12 new ones each day. They'd take couple minutes to create but far more time from the macroers to teach to the systems. There's so much stuff you can do with 10 simplish lines of Python you wouldn't believe.
And understanding how the macroing systems work helps to find weak areas for sure.
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ToxicFire
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:46:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Fooball
Originally by: ToxicFire Mini Puzzles -- Will fail within a week when someone writes a macro to deal with them. Meanwhile true players will get frustrated at having this thing they have to do thats hindering gameplay plus it takes dev time away from the game.
No it doesn't work like that at all. The idea is far more novel and working than what you think. There would be thousands of tiny puzzles, all changing. It's very easy to come up with extremely simple tasks that are extremely easy for humans but hard for macroing systems. Also they would be like content. Fed from the server side. Meaning they can keep changing them.
There wouldn't be much hindering gameplay either since all it requires is thinking for 0.1 seconds and one swipe with mouse. Per for instance an hour. 2 seconds of your time for an hour isn't unreasonable. Besides even AFK miners must sometimes restart their mining lasers. That's a good spot.
It wouldn't take much devs' time either. Technically it isn't very challenging if you compare it to the stuff they are for instance battling atm hotfixing the damned cluster. It's more like one afternoon from them.
Ok simplest way around that would be if a puzzle occurs and the macro doesn't recognise it restart the client and negate the system. Plus making the puzzles server side would increase the server load quite a bit
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Serpensis
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:47:00 -
[22]
Changing the font every now and then seems to fix some of the problem, as they have to redo the pixel color detection routines. However, it doesnt take out those pesky farmers.
-- "Fear accompanies the possibility of death, calm sheperds its certainty." |
Corvus Dove
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:48:00 -
[23]
Mini Games would just harass legit players. No way in hell am I playing a minigame while trying to get insurance money.
Rats in all sec again would be best. Even if the highest sec rats are crappy again (basically velators with civvy guns and 1k bounties), it gives ubernubs something to kill and forces macroers to use code that attacks targets that lock them.
Which means more accidental suicides in high-sec, making macrobusting 300 times easier. ----------------------------------------------- MAKE THE MACROERS SCREAM |
Fooball
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: ToxicFire Ok simplest way around that would be if a puzzle occurs and the macro doesn't recognise it restart the client and negate the system. Plus making the puzzles server side would increase the server load quite a bit
Restart client? Well, that's easy. Just pop the same question again to unlock the mining lasers. Some 3 lines of coding required. The load? Well, perhaps it would take one 1000 eur server box to support the a few thousand miners. The question would be asked like once in an hour, which makes only a few per second. Nothing worth mentioning, even my personal computer could most likely handle it.
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Happysin
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:54:00 -
[25]
Well, RMR's can flagging certianly makes it easier to kill macroers without 'ciding.
Part of the problem is the same problem with spam. Somewhere, someone is buying ISK for real cash. Eliminating or reducing the demand would help kill a lot of these operations.
True, this would not impact those that macro to feed their EVE hunger, but it would help.
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ToxicFire
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:56:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Fooball
Originally by: ToxicFire Ok simplest way around that would be if a puzzle occurs and the macro doesn't recognise it restart the client and negate the system. Plus making the puzzles server side would increase the server load quite a bit
Restart client? Well, that's easy. Just pop the same question again to unlock the mining lasers. Some 3 lines of coding required. The load? Well, perhaps it would take one 1000 eur server box to support the a few thousand miners. The question would be asked like once in an hour, which makes only a few per second. Nothing worth mentioning, even my personal computer could most likely handle it.
So basicly ur saying that client has a flag that rotates every hour isn't reset by restart of client and only counts till the hour point if mining lasers are active thats fair enough but its predicatable there will be ways found around it meanwhile you have to apply the same thing to mining drones which is harder
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Berak FalCheran
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:59:00 -
[27]
OMG there are probably like FIVE macroers... in ALL OF EVE
LET IT DIE ALREADY
/me is convinced macrominers are a product of the forums.
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia In short: Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.
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Fooball
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:59:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Fooball on 19/12/2005 22:59:48
Originally by: Corvus Dove Mini Games would just harass legit players. No way in hell am I playing a minigame while trying to get insurance money.
I would say the idea was a minigame because it lasts only about ~1 second per an hour. Or is answering some question like "1 + 1 = ?" very hard for your intelligence? Or "You are a... Caldari?". Sure it's some work. But I wouldn't even call it a "minigame" and far less "harassing" myself.
And the whole system would require lots of thinking and tweaking. However the price is small if compared to the results if done right. Tweaking the idea enough has got the potential to really stop it all. It just requires some intelligent work.
I agree that some other ideas could work too. I'd like the rats in high sec myself too but I think that will be even worse for the AFKers etc. There's always a price to pay it seems.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.12.19 22:59:00 -
[29]
take the mini games and put em where the sun never shines (no i dont mean iceland either hehe) RMR can marking seems to be working macros are being killed left right and center - it works in with ore theiving for non macro gameplay elements quite a novel solution that reduces their profitablity. CCP are letting us deal with it and ive killed a few MMs have resorted to more basic items now so it is hurting them. CCP please restore the recruitment channel |
ro prefect
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Posted - 2005.12.19 23:06:00 -
[30]
Do what they do with web mail accounts. Every 20 minutes or so you have a pop up with an image of letters/number you need to type in correctly to continue mining. That would virtually eliminate macro miners and should be relatively simple compared to some of the ideas I have read here.
Legit miner won't be able to AFK mine for longer then 20 minutes, but the ore they do mine will be worth twice as much once the macro miners are gone.
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