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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1892
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Posted - 2013.08.05 19:20:00 -
[121] - Quote
for all those in the "instant travel is bad" camp. Dont forget that every second player has at least one alt. Instant travel already exists - just outside game mechanics. You can't balance it, it is already there and unavoidable. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
59
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Posted - 2013.08.05 19:21:00 -
[122] - Quote
2D34DLY4U wrote:Dierdra Vaal wrote:I'm also worried that this skill will go the way learning skills went. This is a bad idea as we are using a mechanic similar to learning skills to solve a gameplay problem. This new skill being introduced will either be meaningless (in its current state) or if you raise the hours/level in an attempt to solve the underlying problem you will create a skill that everyone will need and consequently a barrier to entry in the form of forcing everyone to spend X days training this - the issue, similar to learning skills, is that there is no trade off and no choice being made, its just something you will need to do and therefore not a good game mechanic and just another hurdle that you have to go through in order to play the game. The problem with jump clones is related to the learning implants that are currently IMO a broken mechanic in the sense that they create a link between long term decision making (what to train) and short term risk/benefit decisions (what to risk in pvp). Implants that give you advantages in pvp are cool since you get the edge from the implants but also risk more with them, so this is working fine. Learning implants on the other hand create a barrier to pvp in the sense that in order to pvp seriously you have to forcefully gimp your ability to develop your skills in the long term, thus creating a barrier for pilots that want to pvp - it is a forced sunk cost that has to be paid for by all pvpers. The jump clone timer change has implications in terms of travel and mobility, more so if we reduce jump clone delay to 0 (per Reasonable Suggestions vote item) - I don't see a problem with this right now as it's better to have the player jump clone around and keep playing than logoff and wait for a few hours to do whatever he wanted to do, but I am not an expert and there may be situations where this may be abused. The problem here is the learning implants. Changing the jump clone timer is an elegant way around this problem since although we may see less learning implants being destroyed and less isk sink effect from those implants on one hand, on the other hand giving players flexibility in terms of changing implant sets on the fly may increase their overall use in the game and raise the total amount of implants of any kind being destroyed, thus having a beneficial effect on the market. This on top of allowing players to play the game more, as opposed to forcing them to logoff for hours to get things done... You know, nobody is forced to use learning implants in any way shape or form. I often go without any jmanrs simply so I can pvp more often. It's a choice/trade off that I make. It's a choice everyone has to make when they consider implants. And so far CCP has not said they want to reduce the risk of you losing your shiny implants. They just want to make it so people who jump clone once a day don't har to wait the next day for their ter to run out. It's really useful for people who often play the same time each day. That's the whole point of this skill. Though I agree, maybe a skill wasn't the best solution. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1200
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 19:21:00 -
[123] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Tippia wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:From the all the complaining I can only surmise that people do not want this skill & feature implementing. I guess they are content with a continuation of the system currently in place. No. People just want them to fix the problem byGǪ you knowGǪ addressing the problem, rather than adding in a pointless one-day skill-training timesink as a half-assed band-aid to the problem. In your opinion.
in mine too brosef There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Hybrid tech I ammo boost |
So'Cari
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2013.08.05 19:21:00 -
[124] - Quote
Kossaw wrote:TBH, its a good plan. I like the idea of it being a rank 1 or 2 skill. But with the proposal as it stands right now, why bother training more than skill level 2 or 3. The only thing this propsal aims to do is help prevent players getting stuck outside their regular play hours on a weekday evening.
So this is NOT the solution we have been asking for for a very long time. It's a stop gap solution for a different problem.
So do you think adding a skill is a better solution than just reducing the default timer for everyone? |
Novah Soul
21
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Posted - 2013.08.05 19:24:00 -
[125] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi Hi
I'm not even in the office today (Icelandic holidays happen approx every other day) but I'm really excited to let you guys know about this, so here you go:
For Odyssey 1.1 we are adding a skill - Informorph Synchronizing - which will lower the time between jumping clones by one hour per level.
The goal here is to avoid situations where jump clone delay pushes jump clone use back a bit each play session until eventually people wind up stranded in the wrong clone during their few hours of play time. We don't want to accelerate the rate that you can jump significantly, we just want to make sure that switching once a day is actually possible.
Maybe I should mention that while there may be plenty of feedback related to jump clones as a whole, this change is simply something very easy to do which will have a very positive affect on player experience. Feedback on large scale plans or changes to jump clones, or clones generally, while totally valid, won't have an effect on 1.1. So, if possible, please focus feedback on this skill specifically.
o/ Looks solid. While I'd rather honestly see it put to a 2-hour per level time reduction, anything is better then what it is now. |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
243
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 19:26:00 -
[126] - Quote
This quite reasonable change. People that play few hours a day at roughly same time of day will find this most useful. I'm somewhat concerned this will create additional power projection problems, but few hours shaved on jump timer probably will not make it much worse then it already is. Overall I think this will be net benefit for the game.
Also I support idea to make it a skill instead of just flat adjustment. This is EVE and you don't get something for nothing. If you want this benefit you should have to sacrifice something, even if it is just some SP.
Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
Rina Kondur
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
95
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Posted - 2013.08.05 19:27:00 -
[127] - Quote
Why even bother making this a skill? Seems like something useless that will be required to train now (ie learning skills). Just skip the skill and knock ~5 hours off the timer. |
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
113
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Posted - 2013.08.05 19:30:00 -
[128] - Quote
I thought it's dev's job to improve our gameplay. Instead you force us to train a skill for it?
I'm seriously tired of temporary solutions for long-living issues instead of full revision.
Do total implants + clones interface rework! Make full drone overhaul not just interface but skills and mechanics! Give us modular POSes instead of small fixes! |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4447
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 19:33:00 -
[129] - Quote
Rina Kondur wrote:Why even bother making this a skill? Seems like something useless that will be required to train now (ie learning skills). Just skip the skill and knock ~5 hours off the timer. Because then it is up to you how much of a buffer you need, rather than an arbitrary decision on CCP's part.
If we followed your logic we could just up all stats for skills by 5 (or whatever the maximum % gain is) and do away with skills altogether. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1950
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 19:33:00 -
[130] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:Please consider raising this bonus to 2 hr per skill level, and maybe increase the 'rank' a bit if you're worried about it being abused. Level 3 would be fine for most casual players, for instance.
1 - 23 hr 22 hr 2 - 22 hr 20 hr 3 - 21 hr 18 hr 4- 20 hr 16 hr 5- 19 hr 14 hr
This prevents people from doing twice per 24 hour period, but makes it easier for those of us who end up with weird play times. The 1.5 mark would also be fine, but makes it hard for people to remember when it's 'up'.
I support this idea. A rank 8 skill would balance this out, I think. Same training time as Battleship 5.
Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4447
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 19:35:00 -
[131] - Quote
Alexander the Great wrote: I thought it's dev's job to improve our gameplay. Instead you force us to train a skill for it?
I'm seriously tired of temporary solutions for long-living issues instead of full revision.
Do total implants + clones interface rework! Make full drone overhaul not just interface but skills and mechanics! Give us modular POSes instead of small fixes! The tying of implants to your current clone is not only sensible, but an important balancing device (and logistical consideration). It is NOT a problem to be overcome.
Stop trying to remove choices in favor of just being handed the best possible circumstances by default. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Palamon
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
16
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 19:38:00 -
[132] - Quote
It's really great to see clone system getting some very much needed attention.
But I am hoping this is just the 'toe in the water'?
How about combining the changes to include some of the excellent suggestions recently posted;
Removing the need to pause training to clone jump. Having more than one clone in the same station. Perhaps even a distance based metric that increases the JC timer the further you jump? |
Rendiff
Funk Soul Brothers Tribal Band
23
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Posted - 2013.08.05 19:40:00 -
[133] - Quote
I would like to see a more substantial reduction. Like to down to 12 hours at level 5. I've had to skip out on a lot of ops over the years because I was stuck or didn't want to get stuck somewhere. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
402
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 19:41:00 -
[134] - Quote
Kossaw wrote:TBH, its a good plan. I like the idea of it being a rank 1 or 2 skill. But with the proposal as it stands right now, why bother training more than skill level 2 or 3. The only thing this propsal aims to do is help prevent players getting stuck outside their regular play hours on a weekday evening.
So this is NOT the solution we have been asking for for a very long time. It's a stop gap solution for a different problem.
It seems most people agree that there is a need to prevent mobility around eve simply by Jumping between clones every 5 minutes, and that your choice of implants should matter and have consequences when you want to instantly reship to a new fleet doctrine. And it seems most people agree that Clone jumping should never be more than once in a 12 hour period. So, the simple solution to give everyone what we really want is ...
- Make this ( or an advanced variation ) a higher rank skill so that training L5 takes 30+ days - Make this ( or an advanced variation ) give a maximum benefit of 12 hours between clone jumps at L5 It shouldn't be ranked anything skill. It's frustrating that CCP clearly identifies a problem--the time creep that JCing creates for "normal" play hours, and yet their solution is to implement a skill for it. Please stop with the worthless skills. You guys see this creates problems, so you know what? Change the default timer. Don't make skills that feel like chores to train. You know what other skills felt like chores? Learning skills.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day. |
Isa Superiora
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
14
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Posted - 2013.08.05 19:42:00 -
[135] - Quote
Jesus Rise, you spoil us. The next thing you know you'll give us a skill to reduce asset delay by 5 seconds. |
LujTic
Unforeseen Consequences. The Unthinkables
9
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Posted - 2013.08.05 19:45:00 -
[136] - Quote
We're allowed to discuss this idea, but I feel we are missing some argumentation behind the proposal. It would be nice if CCP could aid this discussion by giving us more clearity about why they want to make the proposal as it is.
First of all the reason for making it a skills. I have a feeling CCP is adding it as a skill so the veterans don't feel like they are running out of usefull skills to train. Anther issue is the measily 1 hr reduction. We don't really know why CCP doesn't want to accellerate the rate you can jump significantly. Others have posted their opinion that they feel that jump cloning more often than once a day is bad because it is a (free and easy) form of instant travel. As such they have proposed alternative solutions to that problem. If travel is the problem keeping CCP from making a larger change, then other solutions might be better. |
Gnoshia
Section 8. Fatal Ascension
58
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Posted - 2013.08.05 19:46:00 -
[137] - Quote
Now all we need is one for remapping. |
Gnoshia
Section 8. Fatal Ascension
58
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 19:48:00 -
[138] - Quote
Destoya wrote:Thanks Obam... Rise!
lol
Free stuff!
\o/ |
MacKael
Segmentum Solar Nulli Secunda
389
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 19:51:00 -
[139] - Quote
That's fine and good, but tbh we need 2 clones per level. Instead of a reduced time. Most of us have skills for armor and shield. As well as missiles hybrids projectiles lasers. Etc etc. not to mention cap pilots who need totally separate clones for snake or slaves. The clones we have no are not enough to support our current level of game play. |
None ofthe Above
669
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 20:15:00 -
[140] - Quote
This is a good change. 24 hours was just a little long.
+1 supported.
I agree with a few folks that -2 hr/level might be better.
I've thought about the introduction of a skill here, it's not so bad. Younger players don't need it so much and it gives an "SP Sink" for older players.
It's not the same thing as adding "must have" combat skills that put older players up on younger which is a dangerous issue.
This will help reduce the feeling of being trapped in either a combat clone or across the map. Increasing PvP since you can swap back to a learning clone if optimized skill training is an issue or get back for a StratOp/CTA for you next session.
Agreed about some concern about buffing free safe travel, that's a bit of a drawback, but I think anything up to -2/hour should be a net benefit for most players. Don't make me hand you a wizard hat. |
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
5544
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 20:17:00 -
[141] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi Hi
For Odyssey 1.1 we are adding a skill - Informorph Synchronizing - which will lower the time between jumping clones by one hour per level.
What rank skill will it be and what are the prequesites? I'm mainly concerned with it being newbie friendly, since it seems like a skill anyone not married to a specifc type of activity would have occasional use for and there really isn't a reason why it should be behind a high training barrier.
CCP Rise wrote:The goal here is to avoid situations where jump clone delay pushes jump clone use back a bit each play session until eventually people wind up stranded in the wrong clone during their few hours of play time. We don't want to accelerate the rate that you can jump significantly, we just want to make sure that switching once a day is actually possible.
If that is all, why not just drop the cooldown to around 20 hours and be done with it? What is the design goal, that made you retain the problematic system intact and just allow us to sacrifice time to get character specific fixes to it?
In my view if it's deemed as a problem then just fix the problem. This kind of common sense mechanical change shouldn't be something you make players sweat for, so to speak. It's like you notice a design problem, but instead of fixing it, you leave the initial problem in the game and offer us an option to achieve the fix by stop training gameplay enhancing skills for a few days. It doesn't exactly scream great game design. More like the gamemechanics are made to be unnecessarily painful, but you have the option to achieve the fix if you just pause your character progression for a few days. Yay?! I guess it's better then nothing, but I still dislike the approach you've chosen.
CCP Rise wrote:Maybe I should mention that while there may be plenty of feedback related to jump clones as a whole, this change is simply something very easy to do which will have a very positive affect on player experience. Feedback on large scale plans or changes to jump clones, or clones generally, while totally valid, won't have an effect on 1.1. So, if possible, please focus feedback on this skill specifically.
o/ Nice to see you're going to think about the system properly at some point. If you're taking in feedback on a future project, I'd like to see you clearly type out the goals you have for the system and why you think the limitations need to be there. Without that any system you go with will seem somewhat arbitrary(like why 24h of cooldown instead of 20h). If you provide those details, it'll make giving constructive feedback much easier, since we have a solid base to ground that feedback on. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
59
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 20:27:00 -
[142] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:CCP Rise wrote: The goal here is to avoid situations where jump clone delay pushes jump clone use back a bit each play session until eventually people wind up stranded in the wrong clone during their few hours of play time. We don't want to accelerate the rate that you can jump significantly, we just want to make sure that switching once a day is actually possible.
You will only accomplish your goal if everyone has exactly the same playtime every single day. It doesn't help in the situations where someone JC's and then a CTA goes out for a few hours later and they are stuck in the wrong clone. If your primary goal is to have people able to switch out implants, then why not talk about more jumps with the skill? Or can we talk about why there is even a limit? What if there wasn't a limit and jump cloning and it cost ISK to jump clone (hey look another ISK sink!)? read the post, implants were not mentioned nor were CTAs. its just to make jumpcloning easier in terms of each time you play a day.
say i start playing at six every day and log off around 9. i decided at 830 to jc up to a trade hub for some orders.
day 2 rolls around and its 7 o'clock - "guys, form up we're gonna go have some fun (insert activity here) in 20 minutes."
....well ****.
See? it's only to help each session (assuming a normal session is about 4-5 hours long, hence the hours per skill) |
Lyra Gerie
Bareback Pornstars Carthage Empires
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 20:27:00 -
[143] - Quote
I like this change, +1
And to everyone saying it should be longer. Just make another skill, make it something like 10x-15x train time and have it require Informorph Synchronizing level 5 and call it Advanced Informorph Synchronizing which will again give 1 hour reduction per level.
This would make the training time take so long that only the most dedicated of pvp/fleet people would get it to the point where they have a 14 hour timer on their clones.
That aside, I still don't like reducing it that far. I understand most players use it to get into cheap clones but it also has the side effect of putting you anywhere in KS in an instant and there really isn't a reason to allow that twice a day (ie the 12 hours everyone wants). |
Gamer4liff
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
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Posted - 2013.08.05 20:29:00 -
[144] - Quote
It's nice, but I think a full reduction of 50% (to 12 hours) at max level would be more reasonable and cleaner. I don't think too many people are going to be able to make much use of the difference between 19 hours and 24. |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2063
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 20:31:00 -
[145] - Quote
What in the ****?
Why is this a skill? Why are you making people invest SP in order to receive QOL fixes? This is the most bizarre change I've read, so much so when somone mentioned it to me I thought it was a parody. This is like making someone train to get UI fixes, or any other QOL change. "Just train graphical anomalies to IV and you should find less flickering! Oh your corp window keeps freezing? Train HUD stability to V!"
I don't think you've really understood why people are asking for the change, since it makes exactly zero sense to be a skill.
Just chop an average play-time from 24 hours and be done with it - a flat 20 hours will be what everyone goes for, so why you want people to take 1-3days to train this is just frankly bizarre. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Fifth Blade
The Nyan Cat Pirates The Retirement Club
12
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Posted - 2013.08.05 20:31:00 -
[146] - Quote
The problem people have with having to train a skill for it isn't just because they have to train a skill to make the mechanics workable. It is also that they have to take it to V to get any useful reduction at all and even then it is barely useful for many people.
A required level V skill that barely addresses the problem. If it were 2h / level some people could take it to 3 and for them, that might be enough. For the rest of us 4 or 5 is still an option.
As it is we would all need to train it to 5 to get any use at all. And many would find that simply isn't enough for anything more than occasional use (when you know you wont be able to log on for a few hours extra) anyway. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
259
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 20:35:00 -
[147] - Quote
Gamer4liff wrote:It's nice, but I think a full reduction of 50% (to 12 hours) at max level would be more reasonable and cleaner. I don't think too many people are going to be able to make much use of the difference between 19 hours and 24. 12hrs is too big of a reduction as there is a concern of power projection (main reason of 24hr cooldown). Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
luredivino
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
24
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Posted - 2013.08.05 20:41:00 -
[148] - Quote
I am not really complaining, but 2 hours per level would be much better. |
Isengrimus
LOST IDEA C0VEN
4
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Posted - 2013.08.05 20:44:00 -
[149] - Quote
Fifth Blade wrote:The problem people have with having to train a skill for it isn't just because they have to train a skill to make the mechanics workable. It is also that they have to take it to V to get any useful reduction at all and even then it is barely useful for many people.
A required level V skill that barely addresses the problem. If it were 2h / level some people could take it to 3 and for them, that might be enough. For the rest of us 4 or 5 is still an option.
As it is we would all need to train it to 5 to get any use at all. And many would find that simply isn't enough for anything more than occasional use (when you know you wont be able to log on for a few hours extra) anyway.
This. 2hrs reduction per level while making it more difficult to train (say, "tier" 5 or 6 and some unpopular attributes) would make it much more useful for those who need it but still balanced. |
Kobea Thris
Stay Frosty.
41
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 20:49:00 -
[150] - Quote
Why is this being made a skill? Drop the timer down by 4 hours and be done with it. There is no reason to have skill inflation like this if your simply view a 24 hour timer as a game design flaw that negatively impacts peoples play. If it's flawed, fix it, don't have a skill to fix the flaw, that makes no sense. . |
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