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Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
106
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Posted - 2013.08.08 08:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
Remote repping needs a status change. Examples:
GÇó If you remote rep someone in a duel, you instantly get suspect status (preferably criminal) GÇó If you remote rep a suspect or criminal ship, you instantly get suspect or criminal status
Rig duels and gank all you want, but suffer the consequences. Call it "aiding and abetting". |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS type X
38
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Posted - 2013.08.09 01:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
it should be a crime to interfere with a duel, you aren't a legal participant and should be judged by CONCORD accordingly.
agree on your other points.
+1
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3849
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Posted - 2013.08.09 07:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Remote repping needs a status change. Examples:
GÇó If you remote rep someone in a duel, you instantly get suspect status (preferably criminal)
You already do.
Quote:GÇó If you remote rep a suspect or criminal ship, you instantly get suspect or criminal status
You already do.
Quote:Rig duels and gank all you want, but suffer the consequences. Call it "aiding and abetting"
You already do. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
5556
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Posted - 2013.08.09 08:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
Telling people a game mechanic needs to be changed. Proposes the existing system as the fix. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
263
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Posted - 2013.08.09 08:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Remote repping needs a status change. Examples:
GÇó If you remote rep someone in a duel, you instantly get suspect status (preferably criminal) You already do. But that should be limited to highsec only. Right now criminal flagging system is broken (i speak from a logi pilot point of view): why should i get suspect flag in low sec space for aiding non criminal pilots in fleet that fight pirates? If anything Logi pilot should inherit limited engagement and weapons flags from pilot being repped, not global suspect one. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
5556
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Posted - 2013.08.09 09:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Remote repping needs a status change. Examples:
GÇó If you remote rep someone in a duel, you instantly get suspect status (preferably criminal) You already do. But that should be limited to highsec only. Right now criminal flagging system is broken (i speak from a logi pilot point of view): why should i get suspect flag in low sec space for aiding non criminal pilots in fleet that fight pirates? If anything Logi pilot should inherit limited engagement and weapons flags from pilot being repped, not global suspect one. Why shouldn't lowsec be affected? It's empire space and therefore falls under rules of engagement. If you dislike such rules, nothing is stopping you from going to wormholes or nullsec. More importantly the reason you got a suspect flag is, because you either aided criminals and suspects or interfered with a limited engagement. Point being you did something wrong and suffered the consequences of your action. If they had initiated hostilities, they would be the ones with suspect flags. If they were actual criminals, you could have attacked them without problems and aided your friends without problems. Just because your targets were bad people in your eyes and you felt righteous doesn't mean CONCORD will overlook your unwarranted aggressions and the aid you give to suspects or criminals. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
263
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 11:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote: If they had initiated hostilities, they would be the ones with suspect flags. If they were actual criminals, you could have attacked them without problems and aided your friends without problems. Just because your targets were bad people in your eyes and you felt righteous doesn't mean CONCORD will overlook your unwarranted aggressions and the aid you give to suspects or criminals. Thats where you failed to understand me. A person with security standing of -5 or less is free to attack by rules of Concord(a pirate). If a fleetmate of mine attacks that person - they get limited engagement locking logis of fleet out of that battle. Why should logi get suspect flag for aiding somebody punishing a pirate(as defined by Concord)? That game desing flaw hinders many small-to-mid scale roams as they have to wait 15 minutes for logis to shred their suspect flags after every engagement, else they wont be able to protect them against another party of anti-pirates without becoming pirates themselves. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Ehcks Argentus
EVE University Ivy League
21
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Posted - 2013.08.09 13:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote: If they had initiated hostilities, they would be the ones with suspect flags. If they were actual criminals, you could have attacked them without problems and aided your friends without problems. Just because your targets were bad people in your eyes and you felt righteous doesn't mean CONCORD will overlook your unwarranted aggressions and the aid you give to suspects or criminals. Thats where you failed to understand me. A person with security standing of -5 or less is free to attack by rules of Concord(a pirate). If a fleetmate of mine attacks that person - they get limited engagement locking logis of fleet out of that battle. Why should logi get suspect flag for aiding somebody punishing a pirate(as defined by Concord)? That game desing flaw hinders many small-to-mid scale anti-pirate roams as they have to wait 15 minutes for logis to shred their suspect flags after every engagement, else they wont be able to protect them against another party of anti-pirates without becoming pirates themselves.
I feel that logi flag spreading should check on why the target has a limited engagement flag.
The flag is because of a duel? Suspect. The flag is because of a war? Suspect.
The flag is because they attacked a suspect or criminal? Just spread the limited engagement timer. The flag is because they were attacked? Same thing.
I also believe that attacking a fellow corp-member should cause a limited engagement timer that counts as a duel, so OOC logi get suspect. It changes nothing for the attacker or his victim, just for the outside help. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
263
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 14:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ehcks Argentus wrote: The flag is because of a duel? Suspect. The flag is because of a war? Suspect. The flag is because they attacked a suspect or criminal? Just spread the limited engagement timer. The flag is because they were attacked? Same thing.
1. True. Actualy thats the only situation where suspect should be put on 3rd party logi. 2. Not True. Logi can be a proper war target. So there should be check if aiding ship is not in war/FW with any of limited engagements target player has. IF not - suspect, else spread limited engagement love. 3. True. 4. True. If you were attacked and you are not criminal or a pirate, then that means that attacker is a criminal anyway, unless you are in null. 5. Corp mates shooting each other should not generate any timers, but weapons and yellow aggro. So there are no problems for logi pilots. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3849
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Posted - 2013.08.09 19:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Thats where you failed to understand me. A person with security standing of -5 or less is free to attack by rules of Concord(a pirate). If a fleetmate of mine attacks that person - they get limited engagement locking logis of fleet out of that battle. Why should logi get suspect flag for aiding somebody punishing a pirate(as defined by Concord)? That game desing flaw hinders many small-to-mid scale anti-pirate roams as they have to wait 15 minutes for logis to shred their suspect flags after every engagement, else they wont be able to protect them against another party of anti-pirates without becoming pirates themselves.
Interfering with a limited engagement is a suspect action. Full stop.
If you'd like to help your friends fight pirates in HS, grab something with guns and make your own limited engagement. In LS, suspect flags have virtually no effect, so... who cares.
A suspect flag doesn't affect your sec status. If pirates attack your logi, you can attack them without losing any security status.
Anyway, the goal of Crimewatch 2.0 was simplifying a byzantine system of aggression rules. It has succeeded in that. So...
Interfering with a limited engagement is a suspect action. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
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Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
263
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 21:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:If you'd like to help your friends fight pirates in HS, grab something with guns and make your own limited engagement. In LS, suspect flags have virtually no effect, so... who cares.
A suspect flag doesn't affect your sec status. If pirates attack your logi, you can attack them without losing any security status.
Anyway, the goal of Crimewatch 2.0 was simplifying a byzantine system of aggression rules. It has succeeded in that. So...
Interfering with a limited engagement is a suspect action. Why HS should limit my choice of ships for fleet with some arbirtrary rules?
Not everyone in LS is a pirate, protecting suspect logi pilots(that have done nothing wrong) from non-pirates will result in sec status loss and criminal flag for whole fleet.
Crimewatch failed at some aspects of aggression and engagement rules. Thats why we have duel system now. There was no need for one before crimewatch and everyone were happy.
Then why attacking same target (suspect/criminal/pirate) results in a limited engagement flag and aiding attacker - in a suspect? both actions are interfering with limited engagement. That is a discrimination: logi pilots are not included in kill/lossmails unless leeching, have different set of rules(harsher) for engagements in HS/LS. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1042
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Posted - 2013.08.09 21:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
LOL. 'Anti pirate.'
Hi Sec problems. Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Rengerel en Distel
1768
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Posted - 2013.08.09 22:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Why do you care if you get a suspect flag in low sec? Afraid people will be able to shoot you? Oh, you're doing that leet pvp of gate camping high sec gates, right, and want to be able to dive into high sec if you suck?
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3849
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Posted - 2013.08.10 00:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Why HS should limit my choice of ships for fleet with some arbirtrary rules?
It doesn't. It just provides a consequence for interfering with a limited engagement.
Also, laws, by their nature, are arbitrary, so complaining that arbitrary laws are affecting you by being arbitrary is kind of silly.
Quote:Not everyone in LS is a pirate, protecting suspect logi pilots(that have done nothing wrong) from non-pirates will result in sec status loss and criminal flag for whole fleet.
The logi pilots interfered with limited engagements. That is a suspect action in the eyes of EVE's laws. If it weren't "wrong" on some level in the eyes of EVE's laws, it wouldn't be a suspect action.
Quote:Then why attacking same target (suspect/criminal/pirate) results in a limited engagement flag and aiding attacker - in a suspect? both actions are interfering with limited engagement.
Nope. When you attack a legal target, you create a new limited engagement, you're not interfering with anything.
Quote:That is a discrimination: logi pilots are not included in kill/lossmails unless leeching, have different set of rules(harsher) for engagements in HS/LS.
So? Making life (marginally) harder for logi was intentional. It's why you also inherit the weapons timer of the people you rep. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
263
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 00:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Why do you care if you get a suspect flag in low sec? Afraid people will be able to shoot you? Oh, you're doing that leet pvp of gate camping high sec gates, right, and want to be able to dive into high sec if you suck?
Please dont generalize using urself as example. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
263
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 00:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Quote:Then why attacking same target (suspect/criminal/pirate) results in a limited engagement flag and aiding attacker - in a suspect? both actions are interfering with limited engagement. Nope. When you attack a legal target, you create a new limited engagement, you're not interfering with anything. Quote:That is a discrimination: logi pilots are not included in kill/lossmails unless leeching, have different set of rules(harsher) for engagements in HS/LS. So? Making life (marginally) harder for logi was intentional. It's why you also inherit the weapons timer of the people you rep. If attacking legal target creatres new engagement, then protecting from legal target should also create limited engagement, dont you think?
I'm not against weapons timer, it is inherited correctly. But whole limited engagements/suspect flags mechanic is broken for logis. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3850
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Posted - 2013.08.10 00:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:If attacking legal target creatres new engagement, then protecting from legal target should also create limited engagement, dont you think?
I'm not against weapons timer, it is inherited correctly. But whole limited engagements/suspect flags mechanic is broken for logis.
1. Why should it? You're not attacking anyone. Also, it begs the question of who you'd create the limited engagement against, and run back into the strange chaining aggression issues that CW2.0 was designed to get rid of.
2. It's working exactly as it was explicitly intended to work. How is that broken?
If you don't like the aggression rules in Empire space, you're free to move to areas with different aggression rules. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
263
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 00:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: 1. Why should it? You're not attacking anyone. Also, it begs the question of who you'd create the limited engagement against, and run back into the strange chaining aggression issues that CW2.0 was designed to get rid of.
2. It's working exactly as it was explicitly intended to work. How is that broken?
If you don't like the aggression rules in Empire space, you're free to move to areas with different aggression rules.
1. Editted previous post before your reply to clarify things. Yes, but i dont see chain aggression as a bad thing. Also if you also inherit timers of those engagements you wont be able to chain it indefinitely. For that you'll have to constantly have someone in fight with target. 2. From my point of view it is illogical, but then - read my signature. It seems that we cant come to consensus on that matter. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3850
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 00:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote: 1. Editted previous post before your reply to clarify things. Yes, but i dont see chain aggression as a bad thing. Also if you also inherit timers of those engagements you wont be able to chain it indefinitely. For that you'll have to constantly have someone in fight with target. 2. From my point of view it is illogical, but then - read my signature. It seems that we cant come to consensus on that matter.
CCP Explained pretty clearly when they were releasing CW2.0 that the corner cases caused by individual chained aggression flags were an unacceptable cost to allowing that sort of individual chaining.
In Empire, aiding someone who is in a legal engagement to which you are not a party is a suspect action. Arbitrary, sure (see my thing about the nature of laws). Illogical, no. You're free to rep someone who hasn't shot back. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Swiftstrike1
Interfector INC. Fade 2 Black
150
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 03:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
How flags work Fleet Bookmarks
Comets: the new Gravimetric scan sites |
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Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS type X
39
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Posted - 2013.08.10 06:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Remote repping needs a status change. Examples:
GÇó If you remote rep someone in a duel, you instantly get suspect status (preferably criminal) You already do. Quote:GÇó If you remote rep a suspect or criminal ship, you instantly get suspect or criminal status You already do. Quote:Rig duels and gank all you want, but suffer the consequences. Call it "aiding and abetting" You already do. Seems like you're set.
He may be all set, but....
Seems like im NOT all set, i want CONCORD to poof anyone that gets involved in a duel wherever CONCORD enforces its rule.
If I want to be gang-banged I can just go to null and say Hey here i am blast me into oblivion so that aspect of the game is already covered, a duel is just that between two and only two pilots that go head to head to see who the better pilot is without anyone interfering. |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
307
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Posted - 2013.08.10 08:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
I agree neutral logi pilots should all be deep fried then concorded as the scum they are, want to fly a logi, then fleet up and show your true colours as a genuine and valid war target. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3858
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Posted - 2013.08.12 00:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Seems like im NOT all set, i want CONCORD to poof anyone that gets involved in a duel wherever CONCORD enforces its rule.
If I want to be gang-banged I can just go to null and say Hey here i am blast me into oblivion so that aspect of the game is already covered, a duel is just that between two and only two pilots that go head to head to see who the better pilot is without anyone interfering.
Too bad. This is EVE, not World of Spaceship Arenas. People can set traps for you.
Grab some buddies in combat ships and have them tackle and kill the logi when they go suspect. Logi, as it turns out, aren't great at shooting things.
Or, do your fighting near a trade hub undock. Suspect logi aren't going to last long there. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
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