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Huskar
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Posted - 2005.12.24 11:54:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Ede'Ebu Grosnak, I wasnt implying you. I tend to agree with you on most points. Just think the others who complain about a change perhaps should adapt rather than remain stagnant!
I think you also misunderstood my post. I was pointing out that I usually find the old tactics work well for me and my running buddies. So far we have not had much of a problem with wcs, and if we do find someone who has come prepared, we don't care and wander off to find someone else.
As for adapting...
If the way we currently do things is good enough for most then why do we need to adapt completely when only minute changes in tactics are required?
You will also note that the post was made in response to Gronsak's original manner which was to try to insult all who did not agree. It is only on this last page that he shows any kind of attempt at discussion.
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Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.12.24 12:12:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists not even one, single wcs.
its a matter of knowledge and honor, simple.
i can surely say youve never flown long solo runs then. -=-
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Tachy
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Posted - 2005.12.24 12:14:00 -
[93]
When you wanted to shoot down a cruiser and you're unable to pin it down with 1 BS and 3 smaller ships, you didn't try, you're had bad tactics, or you stopped yourself from doing it.
All you're asking for is a sure fire way to gank even unwilling targets. 3 or more wcs severely limit most ships. Their pilots already dropped efficiency in exchange for an escape-setup.
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Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.12.24 12:32:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Tachy When you wanted to shoot down a cruiser and you're unable to pin it down with 1 BS and 3 smaller ships, you didn't try, you're had bad tactics, or you stopped yourself from doing it.
All you're asking for is a sure fire way to gank even unwilling targets. 3 or more wcs severely limit most ships. Their pilots already dropped efficiency in exchange for an escape-setup.
Exactly even Raven with shield tank and 4 WCS wont be able to run its tank too long since he dont have any cap supporting modules like cap-rechargers or PDUs. Same goes for his dmg output without any BCS. -=-
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without
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Posted - 2005.12.24 12:49:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Sky Hunter
Originally by: Tachy When you wanted to shoot down a cruiser and you're unable to pin it down with 1 BS and 3 smaller ships, you didn't try, you're had bad tactics, or you stopped yourself from doing it.
All you're asking for is a sure fire way to gank even unwilling targets. 3 or more wcs severely limit most ships. Their pilots already dropped efficiency in exchange for an escape-setup.
Exactly even Raven with shield tank and 4 WCS wont be able to run its tank too long since he dont have any cap supporting modules like cap-rechargers or PDUs. Same goes for his dmg output without any BCS.
OH RLY
how about 6 siege [t2 if it fits] 2 invols, 4 extenders t2 2 bcu, 3 stabs
what do u know, 18k shields with 52% EM at its lowest. good dmg output and 3wcs
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Rexthor Hammerfists
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Posted - 2005.12.24 13:30:00 -
[96]
sky hunter, i definately did that, as im sure many ppl can tell u that.
well, i used a raven with 4 multis - effective against tacklers but these arent as unbalanced as wcs.
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Huskar
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Posted - 2005.12.24 13:40:00 -
[97]
Can we get over the subject of a Raven or any other Battleship with wcs fitted please? What you are proposing here effects every ship in the game, most other ships don't have the capacity to mount 4wcs, let alone 4 wcs and a tank/gank.
Yes a Raven with 3wcs and a shield tank is a pain in the arse to hold and kill, but that is the way the cookie crumbles. Merely saying "I want wcs to be hi-slot mods so you nerf the ship completely" will screw up most ships. Granted Ravens will be alright, but what about the smaller ships?
I can see this getting implemented and then the same people in this thread will start a new one moaning on about the new wcs changes. Personally - after reading through the entire thread for the fourth time - I will still say it was the attackers tactics which failed on this occasion. Kudos to Gronsak for trying something where every ship shared the tackling, but in this instance that tactic did not work.
The simple answer is to change tactics.
If you have the drive and tenacity to chase someone down in 0.0, then you have to assume that the person being chased has the drive and tenacity to get away.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
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Posted - 2005.12.24 13:45:00 -
[98]
nice words, rlly.
but what tactics u think will help then in the future?
the camp, gank blobb tactics.
well i can do em, but would prefer todo somethin else, like effectively goin solo around again ;) - useless with one point these days.
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Ras Blumin
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Posted - 2005.12.24 13:47:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists like effectively goin solo around again ;) - useless with one point these days.
Sad but true :(
p - l - u - r |
Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.12.24 14:03:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists sky hunter, i definately did that, as im sure many ppl can tell u that.
well, i used a raven with 4 multis - effective against tacklers but these arent as unbalanced as wcs.
Ok so you maybe know that without WCS in ship bigger or of the cruiser size, your certainly in pod if you get attacked by tackler+BS combo. Since you cant run from tackler scrambling while BS still locking you.
Ofc, if your only flying and not encountering anything then much smaller your size you dont need 'pre-caution' as 1-2 WCS in lows.
-=-
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Huskar
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Posted - 2005.12.24 14:06:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Huskar on 24/12/2005 14:06:43
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
but what tactics u think will help then in the future?
If you call two Thorax' and a Rupture a blob then I guess I use blob tactics.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.12.24 14:33:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 24/12/2005 14:35:07 WCS ruin solo PvP, period.
Yes, i nearly always fly solo when there are no ops going on, and No, i never fit stabs. Doesnt stop me from killing BS in HACs, even in 3-4 BS vs my lone HAC. (Yes, i FRAPSed that :P)
But the sheer amount of people using Stabs just makes it useless. Its hard enough scanning someone down with the silly scanner lag. Then you still gotta warp and hope he hasnt noticed you. Then youre in the grid and he can be anywhere between 5km and 120km away. Chance to kill = 5% maybe.
On the bright side, the current system is alot better then the retarded chance-based thingiemabob. That would be the end of solo PvP alltogether.
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Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.12.24 16:56:00 -
[103]
Well, if you aint getting shot down while engaging 3 BS and having no stabs....those BS pilots need to go back to empire.
And yet again, im all for nerf of WCS. But nerf those pilots who actually use a full rack of them. Let those who want pack 1 or 2 of those if they arent sure where they are going. -=-
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Kalixa Hihro
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Posted - 2005.12.24 17:42:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Sentani Lone ship = travel setup
its a good rule of thumb...
if you want to kill someone that dosnt want to figth then you should have to put some effort into killing them...
people just dont want to get killed... simple as that...
people are doing this in fleet battles. All frigs need to focus on one battleship to hold him down. Of course, the one that gets held down pops a lot easier
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Rexthor Hammerfists
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Posted - 2005.12.25 12:05:00 -
[105]
its called experience sky hunter ;)
while engaging 3bs in a hac is kinda extrem, goin around with wcs isnt, should b the norm.
no honor to wcs on combat ships - no excuse for that either.
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Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.12.25 12:30:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists its called experience sky hunter ;)
while engaging 3bs in a hac is kinda extrem, goin around with wcs isnt, should b the norm.
no honor to wcs on combat ships - no excuse for that either.
Point is that you can everything to save or use your ship.
After all, even a ship with 1 WCS will laugh at the enemy bragging in local about him loosing ship and his friendly blob couldnt catch you.
Kill is kill imo. -=-
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Ryysa
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Posted - 2005.12.26 10:34:00 -
[107]
interesting thread... My thought on it is the following...
If your "PVP" only involves attacking carebear alliances in their own space, then their natural response is, instadock (or warp to pos), then assemble THE BLOB and put up bubbles everywhere.
It is quite normal that npcers fit stabs, as they are not interested in fighting really...
Only way to catch them lately is run dual accounts, one with at least 3 pts of scram which you use to scout and tackle, and the other one a dmg dealer...
That is if you play "solo", but you can't really call it solo anymore...
The much easier and fun way is to play in a group, and i agree that the answer to stabs is not just frigs with 4 pts scram, because they die way too fast. And if you are far from your HQ, what fun is it to go 20 jumps, then die in your ceptor and then warp pod back 20 jumps?
There's a lot of other ships that make GREAT tacklers and can last a while... The best example is probably a MWD vagabond while a cheaper example is a throwaway stabber. Other cruisers work aswell.
If you fight a PVP entity with even numbers, there is three options: a) they all fit stabs b) none of them fit stabs c) they are egoists who leave their friends to die.
Why? it's simple... because if all have stabs, all can warp out, if none have stabs they will all fight to the end, and if a few have stabs they will leave their friends behind to get ganked if they lose.
There is a zillion ways to "nerf" stabs, but most of them would nerf some ships more than others...
Use tougher tacklers, like fast AF's / stabbers / vagabonds that can hold against another ship for a bit before your main fleet arrives... that has proven to be quite effective.
And as a last notice to the OP [not a flame], try to keep the insulting and swearing down, you have stated and prove your point, if you act with a bad attitude, you will only achieve the opposite of what you wanted to.
And sure, people use too many stabs atm, but those who adapt and evolve will prosper. Think outside the box, there is always a way :)
All about target jamming |
Bubba Fett
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Posted - 2005.12.26 10:58:00 -
[108]
That guy in the Deimos sounds like a real jerk. You go to the bother of bringing 2 battleships to fight his HAC and instead of staying and letting you destroy his ship he ran away. Then when you wanted to go 3 on 1 he ran away again. He sounds like the most inconsiderate player in the game.
The good news is that the Deimos only has 6 low slots so if you bring 7 battleships next time then you've got him.
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Sergej
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Posted - 2005.12.26 11:42:00 -
[109]
Well the problem I have with stabs is that, as stated, it makes it really hard to do anythign solo. Impossible really. As using 3 point 20k scramble, which would do in most situations, gimps all setups I can think of, while 2 WCS are the logical choice nowdays. I don't blame people really. I use them myself when deep in enemy territory withotu support on hacs and BS. I would put another mod there, but there is NO other more useful mod than a stab I can put in there, and it does not adversly affect my setups in most of situations.
To give an example, I often fly Vagas. Pre RMR I was always in 5 dmg mod setup. Nowdays it's useless, and if you have any idea what else to put in last 1-3 lows depending ont he mood I'm in, go ahead. Nothing I can think of will affect my survivability more than stabs, while nothign I can fit there will actually help me kill my enemy sooner. Tracking is not a problem on vaga. I cannot get more damage. So I run out of options offensively. Defensively? backup ECMs? rarely get scrambled in my experience, and when I do it's a decent EW specialist that does it so it wouldn't matter much. Damage controls? tried, they give you extra 3 seconds in a normal fight I have. Not really worth it. Armor hardners? Pretty useless with my base armor anyway, if I don't kill them by the time I'm out of shileds, I'm very likely dead with vagas base armor and no form of active tanking... All the defensive solutions we have in EVE would help me in those marginal situations when both ships are in structure at the end of the fight. If I can live with not winning those (which are admiteddly the best fights possible for me), it gives me the chance to have my ship and get away with it.
So in short, WCS is a logical mod to use. Not using it as matter of principle while other peopel are using it is pointless and gets you killed for no reason. I try not to use them whenever I can avoid it (look at the above silly principle), but they are definitely appearing in my standard post RMR setups. I don't know what the solution is. I just know I don't really blame people for fitting 1-2 stabs at all, but my solo vaga raids have come to an end with 1 20k scram it seems, and I don'g know what else to fit to counter wcs. Mids are simply more rare on my ships than lows.
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Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.12.26 11:58:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Bubba Fett That guy in the Deimos sounds like a real jerk. You go to the bother of bringing 2 battleships to fight his HAC and instead of staying and letting you destroy his ship he ran away. Then when you wanted to go 3 on 1 he ran away again. He sounds like the most inconsiderate player in the game.
The good news is that the Deimos only has 6 low slots so if you bring 7 battleships next time then you've got him.
Signed -=-
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Filan
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Posted - 2005.12.26 12:58:00 -
[111]
the WCS cant ever be nerfed or changed as it would effect noncombat ships like haulers and barges. unless they can find a way to do per ship changes to stabs.
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Edoo
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Posted - 2005.12.26 13:09:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Gronsak it just makes sense to stab up [now PA can say they new abaout the stacking nerf wAyyyyy before it hit TQ so they where using it before RMR
You lost the war so badly you never were in a position to warp scramble us Keep it out of this forum.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.12.26 13:36:00 -
[113]
aye ships like the vaga seem to just easily fit 4*wcs and 1 gyro II as they most often are the first in as -6 tacklers or lone hunting and need the wcs to get out of sticky siutations.
But ya, stabs seem the way to go atm 1-2 ive seen common on most setups anyway, above 2 is getting more common however.
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Neon Genesis
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Posted - 2005.12.26 14:06:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Sky Hunter Well, if you aint getting shot down while engaging 3 BS and having no stabs....those BS pilots need to go back to empire.
And yet again, im all for nerf of WCS. But nerf those pilots who actually use a full rack of them. Let those who want pack 1 or 2 of those if they arent sure where they are going.
Thats exactlty the problem don't you see?
A minute or 2 ago i was flyin my thron in a 0.0, and came across a camping dominix. I engaged, no wcs on me, he clearly had at least 1, because my disruptor was proven useless when he warped off.
Its faaaaar to easy to fit 1 or 2, and still be totally effective for pvp.
They're too powerful, and it kills the fun of combat.
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread |
Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.12.26 14:58:00 -
[115]
Fun ganking the ships you 100% sure youll take down?
-=-
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Ras Blumin
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Posted - 2005.12.26 15:18:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Ras Blumin on 26/12/2005 15:18:56
Originally by: Sky Hunter Fun ganking the ships you 100% sure youll take down?
1v1's are never "sure wins", especially against a domi.
Edit. btw, the more stabs you fit, the more we need to gank you, as we can't hold you otherwise.
p - l - u - r |
Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.12.26 17:25:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Sky Hunter on 26/12/2005 17:27:32 Edited by: Sky Hunter on 26/12/2005 17:26:59 Edited by: Sky Hunter on 26/12/2005 17:26:13
Originally by: Ras Blumin Edited by: Ras Blumin on 26/12/2005 15:18:56
Originally by: Sky Hunter Fun ganking the ships you 100% sure youll take down?
1v1's are never "sure wins", especially against a domi.
Edit. btw, the more stabs you fit, the more we need to gank you, as we can't hold you otherwise.
Me? Have you ever even seen me in overview so you can tell whenther i fit stabs or not?
And yeah, i fit 1 WCS when im going into region i have no idea about. I.e. i dont have idea of current hostile forces amount or the main routes there.
More of that 1-2 WCS arent much of trouble, like i already said: kill is a kill. Let your enemys moan in local about 'oh noes no fair you ganked our BS when we just warped in with 5 pilot mini-blob'.
Loose a ship whenever you kill a ship and his buddys try to gank you? Sorry no way.
Make this game more gank/pirate friendly? Sorry no way. Noone said that pirating or pvp should be easy.
Nerf those who fit more then 2 WCS and gank tacklers inside 10 pilot fleet? Surely YES.
That is exactly why i proposed to make more then 2 stabs next to useless. So WCS wont be a 'trash module' like damage controls were, and same time you wont have trouble catching BS IF you are expirienced and fly in group with good tacklers.
And my opinion that this topic had run its course like many many others. If WCS changes will be implemented, ill say lets have them. But not unless it will make WCS useless, or will make any of modules in line of Scrambler<>WCS useless or too overpowered. I.e.not having a opposite countermeasure.
Since atm wer looking at:
WCS got following countermeasures:
1) Tacklers with regular scramblers/disruptors. 2) BS with sometimes faction disruptors/scramblers.(Why dont have a +3 strenght WCS from Stele Schellan NPC Officer?). 3) Bubbles(very powerfull, since it cant be countered with anything but speed). 4) Interdictors(havent tryed yet, but prolly same as bubbles or even more effective).
So its 1 vs 4....good isnt it? No module in game got so much counter-measures as WCS do.
Lets try to counter-measure EW i.e. Sensor Damper & Jammer?
1) Backup arrays+ Sensor Booster(depends on ship). 2) FoF missles(Caldari mostly). 3) Jamming/Damping back.
So its 1 vs 2/3 or maybe even 1v1 since #2 and #2 can be applied mostly to Caldari(FoF missles) or to ships with considerable amount of medium slots for spare use.
Now you still think WCS is overpowered?
EDIT: typos.
-=-
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Sharies
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Posted - 2005.12.26 17:40:00 -
[118]
I'm pretty sure they just introduced a ship to counter WCS. It's called an interdictor maybe you should look into getting some of those.
http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/sf/type/2/moonshade.png
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Larry King
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Posted - 2005.12.26 20:16:00 -
[119]
Is it reasonable to apply WCSto t2 frig's or recon ships?
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without
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Posted - 2005.12.26 20:26:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Larry King Is it reasonable to apply WCSto t2 frig's or recon ships?
u can use a stab for any thing u like
the point is that on some ships its stupid, on others its just too easy
ie: on a harpy, its kinda dumb. cos u will probably want 1 dmg mod and one tracking mod, and since ur in a frig, u got agility to get away
but on a domi. u could easilly fit nos/shield tank/7stabs
or nos/EW/5slot tank, 2 wcs
ect
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