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Voddick
AFK
18
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Posted - 2011.10.28 02:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Issue Respawning belts just donGÇÖt make sense from a RP or anti-bot perspective. Remove them from the game and spawn random, small ice and ore Gravimetric sites instead.
Criteria It is critical that these mining sites in empire be accessible from the system scanner and not probes to ensure mining remains GÇÿnew-playerGÇÖ friendly. These sites should be small enough to last 30 minutes or so (40,000 m3) in a hulk before running out of ore. Also, a site despawn time of 3 to 4 hours should be set to ensure that fresh sites are always available.
Low Sec Low sec should have full access to the high end ores and ice currently found only in null sec. They should also offer increasing quantities of ore to facilitate large, group mining ops. Everyone knows that no one bothers mining in low sec because the ore value is trivial. Low sec is every bit, if not more dangerous than null sec. The rewards should reflect this.
Null Sec Low and null sec mining sites should require scan probes to find to reflect their difficulty and value. Without this mechanic low sec roams would consist of jumping into a system, hitting scan and then warping in on a GÇ£helplessGÇ¥ mining op. With probes, the miners can at least have a fighting chance with the directional scan and local. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
214
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Posted - 2011.10.28 04:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
New players are given the Astrometrics skill, a probe launcher and a bunch of core scanner probes as part of the tutorials. There is no reason to move belts to anomalies, just go whole-hog into grav sites
Moving to grav sites for asteroids and ice will also open the opportunity for new pilots to contribute to advanced mining fleets: the new pilot scans down new grav sites, scans the asteroids and reports to the fleet where the juicier sites are located. No need to train up for months to fly a Hulk with T2 mining equipment.
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Astor Daeoli
Eye of God
10
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Posted - 2011.10.28 13:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Severian Carnifex wrote:- make belts so that you must scan them... i dont think botts can do scanning very well. - static belts have only very small roids for new players... (strips dont have use if it)
- when you left scanned belt its gone... you must scan again...
I like the sound of that. It would also slow down 0.0 rat bots...i think?
Severian Carnifex wrote:- make roid stealing criminal act so you can shoot that person - botts dont see what roid you mine... - make fleeting with other players and making real ops more rewarding then solo mining (orca boost better) - botts dont fleet
I like the sound of that too. I have cc'ed your ideas to a similar post on assembly hall. |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
20
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Posted - 2011.10.28 15:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Voddick wrote: Low sec should have full access to the high end ores and ice currently found only in null sec.
Voddick wrote: Low and null sec mining sites should require scan probes to find to reflect their difficulty and value.
What exactly is the value of a nullsec mining site if lowsec sites contain the same ores and ice? |
Tenobia Aybara
the Organ Grinder and Company Higginbotham and Bailey's Circus
0
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Posted - 2011.10.28 17:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
I agree that all belts should be gravimetric sites BUT:
- The lowest quality of these sites should be anomalies. This is for new players so that they can mine in a single ship without the need for a probe launcher. These sites should only appear in Hi-Sec.
- Each system gains an ore-density statistic which governs the probability of sites forming. A combination of security and governing nation (for hi-sec) should decide what is in the fields. The size of field should be dependant solely on ore-density.
- Null-sec ores should be available in very limited quantity in low-sec, however they will be displaced away from planets and require decent scanning skills to narrow down. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
222
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Posted - 2011.10.28 21:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tenobia Aybara wrote:The lowest quality of these sites should be anomalies. This is for new players so that they can mine in a single ship without the need for a probe launcher. These sites should only appear in Hi-Sec.
Why can't the new players probe down a site in their exploration ship, then mine it out in their mining ship?
Tenobia Aybara wrote:Null-sec ores should be available in very limited quantity in low-sec, however they will be displaced away from planets and require decent scanning skills to narrow down.
Nullsec ores should be in null sec. I'd like to see ores more restricted by security status, such that Pyroxeres and Plagioclase were only available in 0.5 and 0.6 for example. Veldspar would be the only ore that is universally available, simply due to the vast quantities of Tritanium required for ship building (and because Veldspar is holy).
If ores are too widely available, they become worthless.
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Tenobia Aybara
the Organ Grinder and Company Higginbotham and Bailey's Circus
2
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Posted - 2011.10.29 09:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote: Why can't the new players probe down a site in their exploration ship, then mine it out in their mining ship?
I just think the two ships thing is awkward for new players. Some more suitable alternatives to this could be allowing the 'mining frigates' to mount probe launchers alongside the 2 lasers, with a negative effect on probe capacity to prevent these ships becoming exploration vessels. OR just make veld sites anomalies. However I suppose making them all sig's would cut down on botting.
Mara Rinn wrote: Nullsec ores should be in null sec. I'd like to see ores more restricted by security status, such that Pyroxeres and Plagioclase were only available in 0.5 and 0.6 for example. Veldspar would be the only ore that is universally available, simply due to the vast quantities of Tritanium required for ship building (and because Veldspar is holy).
If ores are too widely available, they become worthless.
Point taken. |
Skyreth
Revelation of Wrath
0
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Posted - 2011.10.29 11:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Personally, don't see the need to change things from what they are.
Doing this would just mean people would need more characters or ships involved in mining operations. I know I'm not the only person that gets bored with probing things down, with mining boring enough as is, this would just kill it. |
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc Thundering Herd
1
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Posted - 2011.10.29 17:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
A possible viable option may be:
1. leave 0.8 thru 1.0 as they are. Gives the newer players something to mine and those belts are fairly small anyway. 2. move all ore and ice belts +0.6 down to lowest null to GRAV sites.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
61
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Posted - 2011.10.29 19:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
How about system wide belts. You have to go to the star and there you run the on-board scanner, everyone has that and don't need skills to use it.
This way we get dynamic belts, we get system wide "ring" belts that people have wanted for years, AND we pull people to a common location where they can shoot each other. |
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Max Von Sydow
Droneboat Diplomacy
6
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Posted - 2011.10.29 19:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
Supported if the mining ships could get a spare high for a probe launcher. |
Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
128
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Posted - 2011.10.30 05:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen K ugutsumen |
Anshio Tamark
Avitus Lugus
18
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Posted - 2011.11.03 15:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:New players are given the Astrometrics skill, a probe launcher and a bunch of core scanner probes as part of the tutorials. There is no reason to move belts to anomalies, just go whole-hog into grav sites Moving to grav sites for asteroids and ice will also open the opportunity for new pilots to contribute to advanced mining fleets: the new pilot scans down new grav sites, scans the asteroids and reports to the fleet where the juicier sites are located. No need to train up for months to fly a Hulk with T2 mining equipment. Or, alternately, a more skilled mining-gang can already be out in the site when the new player shows up, and offer to hire them (I've experienced this once, back when we hired our first out-siders). |
Wolodymyr
Mando'a Navy Controlled Chaos
2
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Posted - 2011.11.03 17:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Voddick wrote:IssueRespawning belts just donGÇÖt make sense from a RP or anti-bot perspective. Remove them from the game and spawn random, small ice and ore Gravimetric sites instead. pretty good but needs probing.
Voddick wrote:Criteria It is critical that these mining sites in empire be accessible from the system scanner and not probes to ensure mining remains GÇÿnew-playerGÇÖ friendly. These sites should be small enough to last 30 minutes or so (40,000 m3) in a hulk before running out of ore. Also, a site despawn time of 3 to 4 hours should be set to ensure that fresh sites are always available. Actually to fight botting you'd want these sites to only be probe-able. There are haven / sanctum bots that can use the system scanner. If you are worried about new players there are two things you could do.
1. making a probing tutorial mission that comes before the mining tutorial mission. Hell you could use that bigass TV in the captains quarters to play that one youtube tutorial video.
2. Leave belts there but only fill them with veldspar and scordite.
Voddick wrote:Low Sec Low sec should have full access to the high end ores and ice currently found only in null sec. They should also offer increasing quantities of ore to facilitate large, group mining ops. Everyone knows that no one bothers mining in low sec because the ore value is trivial. Low sec is every bit, if not more dangerous than null sec. The rewards should reflect this. I would give them one or two rare ores that do not appear in highsec but not ALL rare ores that show up in null. People fight for sov out there for a reason.
Also in lowsec being in a probed site is actually a safety feature. When hostiles warp in they have to actually probe out the grav sites instead of just shotgunning the belts or running a quick system scan and heading to grav sites.
Voddick wrote:Null Sec Low and null sec mining sites should require scan probes to find to reflect their difficulty and value. Without this mechanic low sec roams would consist of jumping into a system, hitting scan and then warping in on a GÇ£helplessGÇ¥ mining op. With probes, the miners can at least have a fighting chance with the directional scan and local. People already mine in grav sites out in null. All getting rid of belts would do out here is maybe stop some botters. Although I doubt that anyone would want to bot mine belts out in null. I'd be tempted to leave belts in nullsec.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
255
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Posted - 2011.11.03 23:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
Wolodymyr wrote:Voddick wrote:IssueRespawning belts just donGÇÖt make sense from a RP or anti-bot perspective. Remove them from the game and spawn random, small ice and ore Gravimetric sites instead. pretty good but needs probing.
Rookies are given the Astrometrics skill book for free, along with a core probe launcher and a bunch of core probes. Probing is no more an obstacle than shooting enemies with non-civilian weapons.
Wolodymyr wrote:1. making a probing tutorial mission that comes before the mining tutorial mission. Hell you could use that bigass TV in the captains quarters to play that one youtube tutorial video.
2. Leave belts there but only fill them with veldspar and scordite.
Using the CQ screen to play tutorial videos sounds like an awesome idea! I also like the idea of leaving Veldspar in belts (but only Veld, since it is the holy ore).
Wolodymyr wrote:Also in lowsec being in a probed site is actually a safety feature. When hostiles warp in they have to actually probe out the grav sites instead of just shotgunning the belts or running a quick system scan and heading to grav sites.
Leaving the veldspar belts means that roaming gangs have celestial targets to hang out at while waiting for "good fights".
Wolodymyr wrote:People already mine in grav sites out in null. All getting rid of belts would do out here is maybe stop some botters. Although I doubt that anyone would want to bot mine belts out in null. I'd be tempted to leave belts in nullsec.
No mining bots in null
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
238
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Posted - 2011.11.03 23:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
Severian Carnifex wrote:- when you left scanned belt its gone... you must scan again...
Bookmarks would negate that. That, or you just put two miners in a belt and make sure only one leaves at a time.
Severian Carnifex wrote:- make roid stealing criminal act so you can shoot that person - botts dont see what roid you mine...
That's just laughable. "I claim this rock in the name of ME!" "But I claimed it first!" "Nuh uh!"
Seriously, people. Think this stuff through before you actually click post.
Severian Carnifex wrote:- make fleeting with other players and making real ops more rewarding then solo mining (orca boost better) - botts dont fleet
Bots can fleet, they just don't because they don't need to. It would be simple to manually put a bot in a fleet, or to automate it joining to an advertised fleet.
Using an orca is plenty rewarding right now. When I did mining as part of my exploration, I ran two hulks and an orca when I could have run three hulks. Why? Because it was a lot easier and more productive than three solo hulks. |
Cyprus Black
82nd Assault Fleet
74
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Posted - 2011.11.03 23:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
It's a smart idea and it makes sense.
However that's not the issue. The issue is hundreds of thousands of bookmarks created as a result. Back in the day we didn't have a Warp To Zero on gates option which led to the result of hundreds of thousands of bookmarks created. It created a heavy strain on the server.
With ice and asteroid belts having to be scannable instead of seeing it on the overview, the same problem arises. I am neither fanboy nor flamer. I am logic, dispassionate and cruel. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
238
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Posted - 2011.11.04 01:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cyprus Black wrote:It's a smart idea and it makes sense.
However that's not the issue. The issue is hundreds of thousands of bookmarks created as a result. Back in the day we didn't have a Warp To Zero on gates option which led to the result of hundreds of thousands of bookmarks created. It created a heavy strain on the server.
With ice and asteroid belts having to be scannable instead of seeing it on the overview, the same problem arises.
From what I understand, most miners (bots and otherwise) use bookmarks anyway. |
Wolodymyr
Mando'a Navy Controlled Chaos
2
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Posted - 2011.11.04 20:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Can a bot do the little probing mini game? That might fix it. |
Vitoc Slave
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.12.22 05:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
+1 |
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Molden Heath Angels
23
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Posted - 2011.12.22 11:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
They were going to do this couple of years ago or at least thinking about it but miners went RAGEMODE for no reason. By some imaginary maths some ppl thought it would not be good idea to make botting more difficult and mining more rewarding and less repetitive.
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Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
95
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Posted - 2011.12.23 20:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
Anything to make mining less-bottable would be a definite improvement.
If the Bookmarks became an issue, add a line of code to the BM's folder interface (unseen by us) that creates a new kind of "'Roid - BM" that de-spawns with the site.
I'm *not* a coder, so have no idea if that would even be possible, but if they're going to be "random" spawning belts throughout a system, you would never need the same bookmark twice...
Random spawning belts, maybe a mining interface like PI so that you have to "target" the desirable portion of an asteroid to get the best ore in the 'roid - that should do a *lot* of botters in.
It would also (I think) have the effect of reducing bot-mining, and make Miner - mining more financially rewarding.
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
950
|
Posted - 2011.12.23 21:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
Personally, I like being able to log into Eve, check out local, see no goons, get into a hulk and warp on an ice belt without having to probe out a site first.
I think it should stay the way it is.
Everybody in favor of this approach could move to whs instead.
Make things harder for botters? In the short term, yes. Then they code smarter bots who can probe and you'll be back to square one.
If Eve can ragequit over something as small as the Nex store.. watch the rage unfold over a big change like this. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
22
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Posted - 2011.12.23 21:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nice concept.
Safeguards:
- Systems 0.5 to 1.0 keep their belts (being charted territoriy means everybody knows where the ore is... and gankers too)
- Sites should be small, so they wouldn't last more than three hours even to a solo Hulk (so botters should bother themselves to create new bookmarks each three hours)
- Sites should be rellocated on each shutdown and of course wouldn't ever respawn, refill nor anything that made the bookmarks usable for more than 3 hours of exploitation or 23 natural hours.
Additionally, would be nice to create a lowsec miner, something with a tank parallel to its cost, 3 strip miner slots w/o Hulk bonus to mined amount and 1 slot for either a probe launcher or a cloaking device. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
270
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Posted - 2011.12.23 21:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
I don't think it matters. You force ice and ore to be in sites and not belts and the bots will just start scanning. I would much rather see real belts in systems that actually span the entire system like real asteroid belts do and then add something else like sleeper rats that can kill the bots. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX!
Support our boobies!-á[url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24221&find=unread[/url]
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Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
95
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Posted - 2011.12.24 00:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Personally, I like being able to log into Eve, check out local, see no goons, get into a hulk and warp on an ice belt without having to probe out a site first.
I think it should stay the way it is.
Everybody in favor of this approach could move to whs instead.
Make things harder for botters? In the short term, yes. Then they code smarter bots who can probe and you'll be back to square one.
If Eve can ragequit over something as small as the Nex store.. watch the rage unfold over a big change like this. You mean you couldn't do 10 seconds of system scan to find a random 'roid? That's just lazy. I don't pretend to be a coder, but Bots Probing? I find that difficult to believe...
As for all of us in favor moving to WH's? I already live there.
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
12
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Posted - 2011.12.24 01:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:I don't think it matters. You force ice and ore to be in sites and not belts and the bots will just start scanning. I would much rather see real belts in systems that actually span the entire system like real asteroid belts do and then add something else like sleeper rats that can kill the bots. Bots have already had a good two years to start scanning. I betcha there's a reason why they haven't already... |
Maxsim Goratiev
Nasgul Collective Cascade Imminent
29
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Posted - 2011.12.24 10:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bots will not be scanning any time soon, it would be outrageously difficult to make them do so, you would probably need image recognition for that, since the position of probes and signatures is random.
I support this motion. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
234
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 13:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
+1
Myself and a few other people were throwing around an idea similar to this a while back in S&I.
edit -- found the link. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=43723 |
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2011.12.24 17:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
There have been a number of threads on this topic ..
I posted an idea myself in this thread Mining Mechanics Change
There is also an opinion expressed in this thead that bots are quite capable of scanning, whether thats just using the ship scanner or with probes is another question. |
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