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Alundil
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
284
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Posted - 2013.08.18 19:32:00 -
[91] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Alundil wrote:The log off/on PVP timer mechanics being suggested will negatively impact EVERYONE not just the OP's intended target. elaborate more on that please I didn't think this was that challenging of a concept.
If everyone has a delay to engaging in PvP regardless of their intent (ie: not a login trap) then everyone logging in to engage in PvP is being negatively impacted by a mechanic designed, allegedly, to address a specific action, namely login traps. Since the devs cannot ascertain a player's intent when logging in to Eve, this would be a terribly inaccurate mechanic in the first case.
It is a bad idea right out of the gate.
As a player who has spent most of my Eve time in wormholes and have been involved as the evictor a few times and luckily as an evictee only once I can say that failure to know who is doing things in your hole is always going to give you trouble (Any doctor could tell you that).
OP needs to expend more effort maintaining hole control and sound intel gathering techniques. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1574
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Posted - 2013.08.18 19:57:00 -
[92] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Rowells wrote:Alundil wrote:The log off/on PVP timer mechanics being suggested will negatively impact EVERYONE not just the OP's intended target. elaborate more on that please 'Oh no, I have crashed. I'd better log back in.' 'Oh, bugger. That anti-logon trap feature they've put in isn't letting me log in. **** it, I'll go play tanks.' that depends who's suggestion you are basing that on too. whoever suggested some sort of "forced wait to log-in" was wrong
Absolutely any suggestion that in any way inhibits PVP immediately after log on would have this exact same effect. |
Evanga
Way So Mad Axiomatic Dominion
81
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Posted - 2013.08.21 11:04:00 -
[93] - Quote
when i log back in, i wanna see a giant pink pony with yellow hair instead of my ship. |
Galen Silas
No-Mercy Spaceship Samurai
0
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Posted - 2013.08.21 11:30:00 -
[94] - Quote
Being a fairly older player I have seen a lot of of crap moves pulled by different people here and there in EVE, and the log off trick has got to be one of the most rediculous and unaddressed "PVP" strategies in the game, IF you can call it a genuine strategy that's working as you think CCP designed it to do.
In order for something to be "working as intended" it needs to be something that is intended for use INSIDE of the game, which wouldn't make any sense for this considering you have to disconnect from the game waiting for someone to be tackled. Your outside of the game, It's a broken "mechanic" that as stated, needs to have some kind of a timer preventing people from doing this, because in doing this you have eliminated intel itself, Local chat is not an issue, these people are bypassing ALL means of being discovered simply by showing as offline.
I would even go as far to say that anyone who thinks otherwise on this either 1. Uses this tactic regularly and loves the thrill of cheap and easy kills involving minimal or no actual player intended skill or 2. They are not aware of the fact that something that is outside of being online in the game, and not directly part of the combat aspect cannot "work as intended" when applied to aid or assist said combat, i.e. using the onlining process used ONLY to enter the game as a tactic that was supposedly designed that way to get the jump on people.
Make a timer at least for those who log off in outer space to where they cannot openly aggress someone, unless someone aggress's them first, People in stations should not have a timer as they have to undock, and warp to the location desired. That's my two cents anyways and coming from engaging in and observing PVP experience's since 2005. |
seany1212
Tides of Silence Care Factor
226
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Posted - 2013.08.21 11:42:00 -
[95] - Quote
Galen Silas wrote:Being a fairly older player I have seen a lot of of crap moves pulled by different people here and there in EVE, and the log off trick has got to be one of the most rediculous and unaddressed "PVP" strategies in the game, IF you can call it a genuine strategy that's working as you think CCP designed it to do.
In order for something to be "working as intended" it needs to be something that is intended for use INSIDE of the game, which wouldn't make any sense for this considering you have to disconnect from the game waiting for someone to be tackled. Your outside of the game, It's a broken "mechanic" that as stated, needs to have some kind of a timer preventing people from doing this, because in doing this you have eliminated intel itself, Local chat is not an issue, these people are bypassing ALL means of being discovered simply by showing as offline.
I would even go as far to say that anyone who thinks otherwise on this either 1. Uses this tactic regularly and loves the thrill of cheap and easy kills involving minimal or no actual player intended skill or 2. They are not aware of the fact that something that is outside of being online in the game, and not directly part of the combat aspect cannot "work as intended" when applied to aid or assist said combat, i.e. using the onlining process used ONLY to enter the game as a tactic that was supposedly designed that way to get the jump on people.
Make a timer at least for those who log off in outer space to where they cannot openly aggress someone, unless someone aggress's them first, People in stations should not have a timer as they have to undock, and warp to the location desired. That's my two cents anyways and coming from engaging in and observing PVP experience's since 2005.
You can hardly call dropping on frigates in 10 man gang's 'PVP'.
You stated local chat as not being the issue yet how would you know the aggressors had logged in if it was not for local chat? The only issue these topics come up in is in null sec, I've still yet to see someone in low, high or wormholes creating endless threads about log-on traps, afk cloakers and keeping/removing local. Null sec is supposed to be hard mode, the 'Happy Tree Friends' version of 'My Little Pony' and yet people constantly complain about how they died, IN NULL OF ALL PLACES |
Hopelesshobo
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
89
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Posted - 2013.08.21 11:49:00 -
[96] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Rowells wrote:Alundil wrote:The log off/on PVP timer mechanics being suggested will negatively impact EVERYONE not just the OP's intended target. elaborate more on that please 'Oh no, I have crashed. I'd better log back in.' 'Oh, bugger. That anti-logon trap feature they've put in isn't letting me log in. **** it, I'll go play tanks.'
Simply adding a 1-2 minute timer that starts when you last logged off. If you are still in the window, you don't get the PVP **** block mechanic.
Hentes Zsemle wrote: Btw if you think this is a riskless way of pvp, you are stupid.
Explain to me then how your ship is at risk when you are logged off, waiting for something to come along that you know you will gank? Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
Evanga
Way So Mad Axiomatic Dominion
82
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Posted - 2013.08.21 11:57:00 -
[97] - Quote
we are still discussing something that aint an issue to start with... |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1736
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Posted - 2013.08.21 12:57:00 -
[98] - Quote
plexjunky Inkura wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but this issue is focused on Whs, where bridging and hot drops dont exist. It is rare in WH space for the fleet to actually be logged out at the gank location, they are usually logged off at a deep safe.
A fleet cautiously looks everywhere, finding no one starts to run sites, gankers log on a fleet, warp to site. kill everyone. Cloaks exist for this purpose, at least make that fleet work for their black ops style play.
Fleet hiding cloaked at a safe spot can be found if they forget to cloak, and can be fought. Requires effort on the ganking fleet's part. Has potential to generate pvp if the attackers screw up.
Fleet logged off at deep safe cant be scanned, found or fought. Requires no effort, just lounge around playing whatever till scout says hey guys log in. Has no potential for pvp.
Tell me more about how it requires "no effort" to seed numerous capital ships into enemy wormholes and watch them for weeks for an opportune moment, mr noob corp. |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
141
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Posted - 2013.08.21 13:24:00 -
[99] - Quote
Logoffski's are a neccessary evil, because local chat giving players free real-time intel on who is in system, up to the second, breaks game balance and gives them too much information on when an enemy enters system.
I cover this in more detail here. Would you like to know more? |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
170
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Posted - 2013.08.21 13:26:00 -
[100] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Nothing wrong with login traps tbh, complaining about them when bridges are in the game is a bit lol. agreed on this, if we adress the login trap, let's adress the drops too.
no more warp on login back in? ok, but when exiting a jump bridge to a cyno, you appear in a random part of the destination system, individually.
i like to see how ppl from various alliances, who spend muchof their time waiting on a titan to hotdrop a few cuisers, are whining when it comes to actually do something similar to them: being able to get them without advertising our presence.... this by itself tells it all i think... |
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ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
135
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Posted - 2013.08.21 13:26:00 -
[101] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Logoffski's are a neccessary evil, because local chat giving players free real-time intel on who is in system, up to the second, breaks game balance and gives them too much information on when an enemy enters system. I cover this in more detail here.
Explain how local chat is a factor in wormholes.... which was the original scenario presented in the very 1st post....
Which I assume you didnt read. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
170
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Posted - 2013.08.21 13:32:00 -
[102] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:plexjunky Inkura wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but this issue is focused on Whs, where bridging and hot drops dont exist. It is rare in WH space for the fleet to actually be logged out at the gank location, they are usually logged off at a deep safe.
A fleet cautiously looks everywhere, finding no one starts to run sites, gankers log on a fleet, warp to site. kill everyone. Cloaks exist for this purpose, at least make that fleet work for their black ops style play.
Fleet hiding cloaked at a safe spot can be found if they forget to cloak, and can be fought. Requires effort on the ganking fleet's part. Has potential to generate pvp if the attackers screw up.
Fleet logged off at deep safe cant be scanned, found or fought. Requires no effort, just lounge around playing whatever till scout says hey guys log in. Has no potential for pvp.
Tell me more about how it requires "no effort" to seed numerous capital ships into enemy wormholes and watch them for weeks for an opportune moment, mr noob corp. this, and the fact that it is the ONLY way to actually invade a WH, because of the mass restriction vs the HP pool of the various structures, being unable to seed cap and log them of in a WH would mean that the first to get in will remain the holder forever.
whoever took part in invading (or trying to) a WH would know this.... |
Evanga
Way So Mad Axiomatic Dominion
83
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Posted - 2013.08.21 13:34:00 -
[103] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Logoffski's are a neccessary evil, because local chat giving players free real-time intel on who is in system, up to the second, breaks game balance and gives them too much information on when an enemy enters system. I cover this in more detail here. Explain how local chat is a factor in wormholes.... which was the original scenario presented in the very 1st post.... Which I assume you didnt read.
you still think your point is valid and that all others are incorrect? |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
141
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Posted - 2013.08.21 14:13:00 -
[104] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Logoffski's are a neccessary evil, because local chat giving players free real-time intel on who is in system, up to the second, breaks game balance and gives them too much information on when an enemy enters system. I cover this in more detail here. Explain how local chat is a factor in wormholes.... which was the original scenario presented in the very 1st post.... Which I assume you didnt read.
The subject of the thread is 'log-in traps' not 'WH log in traps', but I accept your point.
It is worth adding that logoffski's are a pain (for agressor and defender) not just in WH's, but heavily in use in hisec, losec and null also. THERE they can be better addressed by delaying local chat updates, as covered in another thread.
I return you to your WH centric programming... Would you like to know more? |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
272
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Posted - 2013.08.21 14:16:00 -
[105] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Do me a favor, step back and ask yourself "Why would people go to such extraordinary lengths to perform this log on trap"?
The answer is pretty straight forward: Currently our omniscient intel system allows you to instantly identify hostiles in system. If you want to hide your numbers/forces, you have two choices: Log them off, or cyno them in.
Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.
It is local chat that should be addressed!
And whats your suggestion, removing it?
Doing so would result in a complete scorched earth no mans land in nullsec, because, say it with me, nullsec is not wormhole space. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
141
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Posted - 2013.08.21 14:31:00 -
[106] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Do me a favor, step back and ask yourself "Why would people go to such extraordinary lengths to perform this log on trap"?
The answer is pretty straight forward: Currently our omniscient intel system allows you to instantly identify hostiles in system. If you want to hide your numbers/forces, you have two choices: Log them off, or cyno them in.
Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.
It is local chat that should be addressed!
And whats your suggestion, removing it? Doing so would result in a complete scorched earth no mans land in nullsec, because, say it with me, nullsec is not wormhole space.
Local chat should be that, a chat interface, not a realtime intel tool with 100% accuracy and timeliness that gives a player 'free' and 'brainless' safety. i.e. +1 local, dock up. The ideas re: remedy are in another thread.
But, theres this thing called D-SCAN, and another thing called scouts -- that you can put on gates or jump-in/out points. Local as a zero-effort 100% realtime/accurate intel tool must die in a fire. It was badly implemented as such, and the DEV that did it should feel bad for the crutch-for-the-brainless he has now created... Would you like to know more? |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
272
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Posted - 2013.08.21 14:33:00 -
[107] - Quote
Acidictadpole wrote:Phaade wrote:Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
You clearly have not jumped into a bubble with 1 cloaky alt (the only one in local) off gate only to have 25 people log in and drop on you. It's really, really dumb. So basically you assumed you were safe when you really weren't. That sounds like user error to me. This is no different than having a titan bridge a fleet on top of you, except that it doesn't require a Titan. It's a little shameful that people will do it, but I'd hardly consider it an exploit, since the same effect can be had with an in-game item.
The difference between a titan bridge and logon trap, and the main complaint it seems, is that there is no way to detect a logon trap, whereas a fleet sitting on a titan can be scouted. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
105
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Posted - 2013.08.21 15:23:00 -
[108] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Absolutely any suggestion that in any way inhibits PVP immediately after log on would have this exact same effect.
Rowells wrote:i think a short invulnerability timer (like at stations) should be implemented. this would not inhibit any pvp whatsoever. it's all up to the pilot whether he wants to wait it out. suggested it on first page. |
monkfish1234
The Knights of Spamalot The Methodical Alliance
23
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Posted - 2013.08.21 15:32:00 -
[109] - Quote
While I understand that being caught in a log-in trap is a bit of pain in the arse, there is already a limited time between when that player first enters the system and pops up in local, and he can e-warp back to where he logged out, and then tackled you.
Now if he just appeared in space next to you i could see your argument, but really the argument here is if the amount of time you are given to react to it is long enough. to which i'd probably answer yes it is. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1737
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Posted - 2013.08.21 15:42:00 -
[110] - Quote
In k-space it'd be easy enough to evade the majority of log on traps by staying aligned and watching local. If you see a new name enter warp and you'll be away before their e-warp finishes. If you're scrambled by a rat or something then thats unlucky but oh well |
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Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
283
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Posted - 2013.08.21 15:49:00 -
[111] - Quote
Logon traps... will it become the new 'nerf AFK cloaking' topic? 6 pages and growing. Keep going guys!! I'm sure you will be able to find a fix for something which isn't broken!!! GOGOGOGOGOGOGO |
Vrenth
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
27
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Posted - 2013.08.21 23:40:00 -
[112] - Quote
TBH I think login traps should be made easier. The whole warp-out thing is silly. Just have your ship disappear in space and reappear in the same place instantly. I didn't put eve on my solid state drive for nothing. |
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