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Rodj Blake
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1430
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Posted - 2013.08.24 22:09:00 -
[211] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Still barking up that tree, Rodj?
Next you'll be telling us the Black Eagles are secretly all werewolves.
It's a fact that Shakor spent years in exile with the Jovians.
I don't think that it's beyond the realms of possibility that they have some influence over him. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Nick Bete
The Scope Gallente Federation
235
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Posted - 2013.08.24 23:44:00 -
[212] - Quote
Dear Vikarion-baka,
Since rational debate is impossible with a thick-headed, xenophobic, ignorant, parochial sociopath like yourself, I'll simply use Captain Rella's shorthand rejoinder: A.
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DeadRow
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
126
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Posted - 2013.08.24 23:50:00 -
[213] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Verin has been practically the model Caldari citizen for longer than you've had your pilot's license. He is wise, diligent, honest, reasonable, decisive, intelligent, diplomatic, relatively humble and a skilled industrialist and combat pilot. He is everything you are not, and he deserves a lot more respect than he gets, especially from the likes of you.
Careful, you might smudge your glasses against Stitcher's cheeks.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1516
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Posted - 2013.08.25 00:42:00 -
[214] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Diana Kim wrote:What... YOU?! Admiral Tovil-Toba would turn over in his grave from simply hearing such nonsence. You don't deserve to be called Caldari. Verin has been practically the model Caldari citizen for longer than you've had your pilot's license. He is wise, diligent, honest, reasonable, decisive, intelligent, diplomatic, relatively humble and a skilled industrialist and combat pilot. He is everything you are not, and he deserves a lot more respect than he gets, especially from the likes of you.
Actually I'm not sure that Verin is a citizen any longer, he's been working outside the State for so long, and has worked with organisations that have worked directly against the State in the past.
No, he might be a good example of a Caldari capsuleer, but he isn't a model Caldari Citizen. I'm sure he'll agree. |
Vikarion
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
592
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Posted - 2013.08.25 00:57:00 -
[215] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:Diana Kim wrote:What... YOU?! Admiral Tovil-Toba would turn over in his grave from simply hearing such nonsence. You don't deserve to be called Caldari. Verin has been practically the model Caldari citizen for longer than you've had your pilot's license. He is wise, diligent, honest, reasonable, decisive, intelligent, diplomatic, relatively humble and a skilled industrialist and combat pilot. He is everything you are not, and he deserves a lot more respect than he gets, especially from the likes of you. Actually I'm not sure that Verin is a citizen any longer, he's been working outside the State for so long, and has worked with organisations that have worked directly against the State in the past. No, he might be a good example of a Caldari capsuleer, but he isn't a model Caldari Citizen. I'm sure he'll agree.
As much as I very much disagree with Mr. Hakatain on many issues, I wouldn't go this far. Mr. Hakatain tends to try to tell the truth, and he has, so far, avoided taking actions against the State. He seems to see himself as a bit of an ambassador of sorts to the Matari, and while I absolutely think that his efforts are probably foolish and futile, that's not to say that they are actively harmful to the State or performed in bad faith. |
Vikarion
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
592
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Posted - 2013.08.25 00:58:00 -
[216] - Quote
Nick Bete wrote:Dear Vikarion-baka,
Since rational debate is impossible with a thick-headed, xenophobic, ignorant, parochial sociopath like yourself, I'll simply use Captain Rella's shorthand rejoinder: A.
We aren't having a debate. I'm telling you how you are wrong. You don't actually have anything to argue with. You just fail to understand what the State is, and who the Caldari are. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1518
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Posted - 2013.08.25 01:13:00 -
[217] - Quote
Vikarion wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:Diana Kim wrote:What... YOU?! Admiral Tovil-Toba would turn over in his grave from simply hearing such nonsence. You don't deserve to be called Caldari. Verin has been practically the model Caldari citizen for longer than you've had your pilot's license. He is wise, diligent, honest, reasonable, decisive, intelligent, diplomatic, relatively humble and a skilled industrialist and combat pilot. He is everything you are not, and he deserves a lot more respect than he gets, especially from the likes of you. Actually I'm not sure that Verin is a citizen any longer, he's been working outside the State for so long, and has worked with organisations that have worked directly against the State in the past. No, he might be a good example of a Caldari capsuleer, but he isn't a model Caldari Citizen. I'm sure he'll agree. As much as I very much disagree with Mr. Hakatain on many issues, I wouldn't go this far. Mr. Hakatain tends to try to tell the truth, and he has, so far, avoided taking actions against the State. He seems to see himself as a bit of an ambassador of sorts to the Matari, and while I absolutely think that his efforts are probably foolish and futile, that's not to say that they are actively harmful to the State or performed in bad faith.
Somebody said he flew for Electus Matari at one point, I've also heard noises about former Gurista involvement. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
2221
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Posted - 2013.08.25 01:46:00 -
[218] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Actually I'm not sure that Verin is a citizen any longer, he's been working outside the State for so long, and has worked with organisations that have worked directly against the State in the past.
No, he might be a good example of a Caldari capsuleer, but he isn't a model Caldari Citizen. I'm sure he'll agree.
I'm sure that I'm not regarded as a model Caldari citizen by many of my countrymen, let's put it that way. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Nicoletta Mithra
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
256
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Posted - 2013.08.25 01:56:00 -
[219] - Quote
It's really easy to check in his employment history: Mr. Hakatain was in the following corporations:
Veto. [VETO] from 2009.01.21 02:03 to 2009.02.09 02:18. Re-Awakened Technologies Inc [RE-AW] from 2011.04.15 14:24 to this day Re-Awakened Technologies Inc was a member of Electus Matari [-EM-] from 2010.12.30 20:35 to 2011.04.29 00:30 (and before with short gaps in between for at least one more year).
That means that Mr. Hakatain was flying with a pirate corporation that counts itself as loyal to the Guristas for roughly 20 days and with RE-AW while it still was part of Electus Matari for about 14 days. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1518
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Posted - 2013.08.25 02:34:00 -
[220] - Quote
I have made a point of forming my opinion on Verin Hakatain without simply reading his corporate dossier. He doesn't fly for one of the Okusaiken and that makes him a borderline outsider. He has symapthies for Jaijii that mark him as being somewhat peculiar.
Nonetheless I regard him as a... perhaps the word mentor is appropriate? I'm not sure? I don't always agree with him but I always listen to him. His wife is one of my kirjuun and a very pleasant individual. Normally I wouldn't talk about it in such detail, but it was beginning to sound as if people thought I was being disrespectful of him. |
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
2222
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Posted - 2013.08.25 03:01:00 -
[221] - Quote
Out of interest, hak suuole, what is Pieter Tuulinen-haan's definition of a "Good Caldari"? An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1518
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Posted - 2013.08.25 05:49:00 -
[222] - Quote
Someone who's part of the State proper, devoted to their kirjuun and is constant in their alleigance to the State. Someone who cares about Caldari issues first and foremost and who is an exemplar of Heiian with all that means. Someone who's disciplined without being too much of a pettifogging bureaucrat, who minds his ancestors and venerates the Winds but who makes their own fate and takes their own consequences.
Someone who is proud of who they are, but won't put that pride before their duty. Someone who is dedicated to their duty but who wouldn't put duty before heiian.
I don't know? Visera Yanala? |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
2222
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Posted - 2013.08.25 08:55:00 -
[223] - Quote
I agree with that definition barring two minor exceptions, only one of which is important to this conversation: I don't think it's necessary to be part of the State proper to still be a good Caldari.
It's about Heiian, about what you do and what you sacrifice. It's not about where you live. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Nicoletta Mithra
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
256
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Posted - 2013.08.25 11:35:00 -
[224] - Quote
Without meaning any disrespect: In my time interacting with Mr. Hakatain he showed behavior and expressed thoughts that I usually encounter among the Minmatar, not the Caldari. From my outsiders perspective he thus seems more like a Minmatar who's espousing the odd Caldari trait every now and then, than a Caldari with some quirks picked up from the Minmatar. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
2223
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Posted - 2013.08.25 13:07:00 -
[225] - Quote
Well, you've had a lifetime of practice at ignoring the reality that's in front of you in favour of seeing only what you wish to see. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Nick Bete
The Scope Gallente Federation
239
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Posted - 2013.08.25 15:34:00 -
[226] - Quote
Ignore the mewling sycophants who attempt to smear your name and reputation, Captain Hakatain. Among most rational members of the capsuleer community, regardless of race or political alignment, you are held in the highest of regards. Your actions have always adhered to your own moral code guided by the principles of Heiian.
As to you Vikarion, my answer remains "A". You know nothing of me or the Gallente so, I turn your lazy pedantry back upon you. |
Nicoletta Mithra
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
257
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Posted - 2013.08.25 16:25:00 -
[227] - Quote
Mr. Bete, "rational" doesn't mean "those agreeing with me" or "those I find important". |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
575
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Posted - 2013.08.25 17:02:00 -
[228] - Quote
Mr Bete, maybe the definition for sycophant actually lies in your own mirror. |
Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
437
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Posted - 2013.08.25 17:05:00 -
[229] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:I agree with that definition barring two minor exceptions, only one of which is important to this conversation: I don't think it's necessary to be part of the State proper to still be a good Caldari.
It's about Heiian, about what you do and what you sacrifice. It's not about where you live. You can work on the State's behalf without being a part of the main stream of its society. I'd even argue that the State requires such people.
While you don't need caldari blood to be a good caldari, being a citizen is the basis for this. There are some that work outside the society, keep in the shadows or sacrifice their own completeness for the greater good but I do not think you'd count as one of those elusive operatives? This also has nothing to do where you live and work, but who for. There are plenty of megacorporate holdings outside The State, after all. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
391
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Posted - 2013.08.25 18:24:00 -
[230] - Quote
Nick Bete wrote:Ignore the mewling sycophants who attempt to smear your name and reputation, Captain Hakatain. Among most rational members of the capsuleer community, regardless of race or political alignment, you are held in the highest of regards. Your actions have always adhered to your own moral code guided by the principles of Heiian.
As to you Vikarion, my answer remains "A". You know nothing of me or the Gallente so, I turn your lazy pedantry back upon you.
I truly adore the implication that suggesting that Mr Hakatain has a hefty dose of Matari in his thinking is a smear. That's a lovely attitude you've got there, Bete.
I happen to think that Ms Mithra has a point, incidentally. I wouldn't call him a Matari with Caldari flavourings, but he's definitely somewhere in between the two. Nor do I consider that to be a bad thing. (Or a good thing, while I'm about it.) He himself has argued that there is compatibility in the two cultures. |
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Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Tribal Band
1119
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Posted - 2013.08.25 20:16:00 -
[231] - Quote
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:Quote:That's the stuff of dictators, not the leader of a Republic. ...and the difference is... In a Republic the people vote for representatives. These representatives then elect a leader and make decisions for the people. Fitting to their title, representatives represent the opinions and beliefs of the people who elected them. Power is usually evenly distributed. In a dictatorship, one person seizes all power in the government. Sometimes this is done peacefully with people actually electing a dictator, and other times the dictator takes power by force. Once in a while a dictator can actually do a good job and rule properly. Most of the time, the power goes to their heads and they do all sorts of horrible things. I thought Amarrians had a high standard of education, this is grade school stuff! I thought the same about Gallente, but you apparently don't bother paying attention to actual politics, so that kind of spoils it. Shakor was not elected. He kicked out the previous leader and dissolved the representative body, and then installed himself. There was an 'election' that doesn't really deserve the term, what with the fact that he was the only contender. Oh, and while we're on the subject of 'power going to their heads'... see: Yulai, the invasion of the Empire and Colelie.
You're moving goalpost I'm afraid. You were asking for the difference between a dictator and a prime minister (leader of a Republic more specifically).
I'm not trying to deny that Shakor is a power hungry maniac putting on the fascade of some wise old man who received help from "jovians". I think we can agree on that. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
393
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Posted - 2013.08.25 20:27:00 -
[232] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:You're moving goalpost I'm afraid. You were asking for the difference between a dictator and a prime minister (leader of a Republic more specifically).
I'm not trying to deny that Shakor is a power hungry maniac putting on the fascade of some wise old man who received help from "jovians". I think we can agree on that.
It's only moving goalposts if you're too dimwitted to spot the subtext and intent in my original post. |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
30
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Posted - 2013.08.25 20:46:00 -
[233] - Quote
I can't wait until the Jovians get involved in all of this "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1522
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Posted - 2013.08.25 20:58:00 -
[234] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:I agree with that definition barring two minor exceptions, only one of which is important to this conversation: I don't think it's necessary to be part of the State proper to still be a good Caldari.
It's about Heiian, about what you do and what you sacrifice. It's not about where you live. You can work on the State's behalf without being a part of the main stream of its society. I'd even argue that the State requires such people.
If you think back, Verin, you'll remember that I was asked to define what made someone a good example of a State Citizen!
Obviously ya gotta be a citizen to be a good one. |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Tribal Band
1119
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Posted - 2013.08.25 21:47:00 -
[235] - Quote
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:You're moving goalpost I'm afraid. You were asking for the difference between a dictator and a prime minister (leader of a Republic more specifically).
I'm not trying to deny that Shakor is a power hungry maniac putting on the fascade of some wise old man who received help from "jovians". I think we can agree on that. It's only moving goalposts if you're too dimwitted to spot the subtext and intent in my original post.
And in typical IGS fashion, one party resorts to ad hominem when called out on something. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
2228
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Posted - 2013.08.25 22:16:00 -
[236] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:If you think back, Verin, you'll remember that I was asked to define what made someone a good example of a State Citizen!
Obviously ya gotta be a citizen to be a good one.
You were asked "what is Pieter Tuulinen-haan's definition of a "Good Caldari"?"
I did not specify citizenship. We all know that citizenship status is a.. fuzzy affair when it comes to freelance capsuleers anyway. I prefer not to worry about whether or not I'm a good Caldari citizen, and focus instead on just being a good Caldari. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1529
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Posted - 2013.08.25 22:52:00 -
[237] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:If you think back, Verin, you'll remember that I was asked to define what made someone a good example of a State Citizen!
Obviously ya gotta be a citizen to be a good one. You were asked " what is Pieter Tuulinen-haan's definition of a "Good Caldari"?" I did not specify citizenship. We all know that citizenship status is a.. fuzzy affair when it comes to freelance capsuleers anyway. I prefer not to worry about whether or not I'm a good Caldari citizen, and focus instead on just being a good Caldari.
Quote:Verin has been practically the model Caldari citizen for longer than you've had your pilot's license.
I know you didn't specify a citizen, but the original point was that you were - if you think back you'll remember I agreed you were a good Caldari but not a model citizen. You asked me what a good Caldari was but, to be honest, I'd already answered that question, so I stayed on topic. |
Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
103
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Posted - 2013.08.25 22:55:00 -
[238] - Quote
Oh dear. I go away for a while and it seems nothing's changed. Such a pity. My alt has two Gnosis, how does he smell?Awful. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
2228
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Posted - 2013.08.25 23:09:00 -
[239] - Quote
Andreus likes to say nice things about me. The most I'm willing to say for myself is that I try to do my best. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1529
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Posted - 2013.08.25 23:52:00 -
[240] - Quote
That's all anyone can ask, really. |
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