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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc Pandorum Invictus
315
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Posted - 2013.08.19 22:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
=) |
Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
314
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Posted - 2013.08.19 22:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
I don't really care about the specifics, I just want to know what the defined "role" is suppose to be. The role of "PvE salvage while you go" battleship needs to die, but I would like to know what the role is. |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
457
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Posted - 2013.08.19 22:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
well they can't get any worse than they are now .. things that might make them worth using in pvp are
- cheaper price - more slots - more tank - pvp role bonus that's useful - a proper pvp role /focus - more uniqueness Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1578
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Posted - 2013.08.19 23:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:well they can't get any worse than they are now .. things that might make them worth using in pvp are
- cheaper price - more slots - more tank - pvp role bonus that's useful - a proper pvp role /focus - more uniqueness
You forgot 'Sensor strength' |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
217
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Posted - 2013.08.20 00:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:I don't really care about the specifics, I just want to know what the defined "role" is suppose to be. The role of "PvE salvage while you go" battleship needs to die, but I would like to know what the role is.
this basically...
except for a few die hards many just blitz mission and noctis later. I know with my missioning I get odd nights where the frigs and cruisers loot pay out equal or better than the bs drops once all sold off. I might get one good meta big gun ins a sea of scrap metal. then I get several good smaller meta guns all sold off that make more when sales total upl. Noctis much better suited to clean every wreck in a room with clusters of rat wrecks all over.
If this bonus were to go I would not shed a tear. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
163
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Posted - 2013.08.20 00:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Wait a minute fellas, marauders are pve ships. they are designed exclusively to be good at pve and bad at pvp. Hence the sensor strength.
Isn't what you want another class of T2 battleship for pvp?
But what would that look like? Mega-tanking monsters with huge dps, multi-neuts and a sensor strength of 50? It's way too OP.
Black ops is a nice idea but the ships themselves are too weak. Perhaps they need to be pimped a bit, or maybe able to warp cloaked...
While I agree in principle with the idea of battleships with extra abilities/strengths from their T2 status, I can't think of anything offhand that does not either break the game or step on the toes of faction/pirate battleships.
This is probably why the design team has not offered anything.
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Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
396
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Posted - 2013.08.20 00:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tractor range is hardly a bonus that is in any way crucial to begin with.
To keep up with wreck generation you need 2 t beams...hell you need 3 even, after 2t beams you are left with single salvager...unbonused...while that was viable before noctis(it wasn't salvage was just better) it is simply doing it wrong after noctis.
Noctis=salvage boat.
Marauder=boat with spare high slots. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
163
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Posted - 2013.08.20 00:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Tractor range is hardly a bonus that is in any way crucial to begin with.
To keep up with wreck generation you need 2 t beams...hell you need 3 even, after 2t beams you are left with single salvager...unbonused...while that was viable before noctis(it wasn't salvage was just better) it is simply doing it wrong after noctis.
Noctis=salvage boat.
Marauder=boat with spare high slots.
I think you're right. It's fair to say that these changes would improve the PVE experience in a marauder:
1. increase tractor range and speed to compete with the noctis 2. give a salvage bonus 3. allow pilots to accept and complete missions remotely, or run multiple missions for a single agent.
Then the marauder could really, "go for long periods behind enemy lines" - provided those enemies were NPCs...
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
217
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Posted - 2013.08.20 01:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Wait a minute fellas, marauders are pve ships. they are designed exclusively to be good at pve and bad at pvp. Hence the sensor strength.
Isn't what you want another class of T2 battleship for pvp?
The thing is many aren't good at pve in comparison now.
And the sensor strength is also limiting its pve ability. Some marauders are now over the 1 bil mark. If I jsut spent 1+ bil for a maruader I'd be happier not going cool....now let me also buy navy or faction so I don't have to turn down gurista missions the rest of my life.
This limiting factor has to go. PVP viability also needs to be added to make these viable. "pvp" features enhance pve. Die hard bears may never run a gank monster vindi in a fleet op. But they know that same gank ability kills rats pretty damn good too.
this is why pirates make maruaders less viable. At some now 1+ bil even more so. Spending 1 bil, whats 200-300 mil isk more.
This is why some navies make marauders less viable. CNR vs golem. I put mjd on the CNR and golem tank bonus means jack to me. Nice thing about mjd...even with a minimal tank you get lots of time to rep up and then cap recharge while waiting for rats to fly out to you again. I don't have tank/cap issues even on rokh doing this. And that is firing cap using rails pretty much all the time. CNR doesn't have cap use weapons to make this even better. |
Captain StringfellowHawk
Marche au Supplice Backwater Aristocrats
16
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Posted - 2013.08.20 03:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Wait a minute fellas, marauders are pve ships. they are designed exclusively to be good at pve and bad at pvp. Hence the sensor strength.
Isn't what you want another class of T2 battleship for pvp?
But what would that look like? Mega-tanking monsters with huge dps, multi-neuts and a sensor strength of 50? It's way too OP.
Black ops is a nice idea but the ships themselves are too weak. Perhaps they need to be pimped a bit, or maybe able to warp cloaked...
While I agree in principle with the idea of battleships with extra abilities/strengths from their T2 status, I can't think of anything offhand that does not either break the game or step on the toes of faction/pirate battleships.
This is probably why the design team has not offered anything.
Newp, as much as I mission run. PVE Specific Ships in a highly Based PVP game EVE... Everyone Vs Everyone... Needs to have all hulls capable fairly in all forms, between PVP and PVE. Not one Role specific into just PVE. If it Carries a Weapon, it should have a chance to Defend itself and not just be Insta-Jammed by a noob ship with a t1 ECM. Eve is supposed to be the Sandbox Game. Let the ships be Sandbox and not doomed in one field. It's a T2 Battleship, It should be Superior in the majority of the ways Vs Tech 1. That or Take it from a Marauder Role.. And Put it as an ORE ship and a low grade Salvage Creator/Collector. Another thing is, As more NPC's Constantly Jam, which did not happen at the Marauders Inception, The Low Sensor Strength is now a hinderance On the Marauders. |
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Marc McIntyre Crendraven
The Knights of Retribution
6
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Posted - 2013.08.20 03:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
I for one hope that they are still good for PVE after the re-balance, i trained to get marauder skill up because I am a casual mission runner. In fact, I would be training Marauder to level 5 but I am afraid that If CCP completely changes their role then I would have wasted all those skill points, at least knowing their general direction would allow me to train what I wanted. Could a Dev at least give us a hint so I can decide if I want to continue training my Marauder skill!. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4523
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Posted - 2013.08.20 03:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Well, one thing they could do to make them more popular as a choice for PVE is to make the NOT vulnerable to the one type of EW that their preferred target NPC race uses. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
The Knights of Retribution
6
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Posted - 2013.08.20 03:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Well, one thing they could do to make them more popular as a choice for PVE is to make the NOT vulnerable to the one type of EW that their preferred target NPC race uses.
this |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
338
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Posted - 2013.08.20 04:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Or possibly Marauders aren't part of 1.1 so they aren't posting any thoughts on them till after 1.1 releases so they can concentrate on one feedback area at a time.... Just possibly :). Personally I would be happy if the silly sensor strength got fixed and that was all. It doesn't need a huge amount, just to be the same as T1 BS, rather than more like a T1 frigate. And proper T2 Resists wouldn't go amiss. After that, they are in a fairly good place. The Tractor beam/Salvage is a bit anaemic next to Pirate BS + Noctis combo, but is an interesting Niche. The other thing that could be interesting off the top of my head would be a remote rep bonus. Weaker than a real Logi, but would allow them to be more useful in PvP as a spider tanking BS gang with a bit of local rep also. |
Yaturi
The Scope Gallente Federation
35
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Posted - 2013.08.20 04:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
I think sleeper design should be incorporated on the new marauders with the interdiction nullifier taking the place of the tractor beam role.
I also think its weakness to ecm needs looking at as well. Racial based weakness is bad weakness |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
396
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Posted - 2013.08.20 06:50:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Tractor range is hardly a bonus that is in any way crucial to begin with.
To keep up with wreck generation you need 2 t beams...hell you need 3 even, after 2t beams you are left with single salvager...unbonused...while that was viable before noctis(it wasn't salvage was just better) it is simply doing it wrong after noctis.
Noctis=salvage boat.
Marauder=boat with spare high slots. I think you're right. It's fair to say that these changes would improve the PVE experience in a marauder: 1. increase tractor range and speed to compete with the noctis 2. give a salvage bonus 3. allow pilots to accept and complete missions remotely, or run multiple missions for a single agent. Then the marauder could really, "go for long periods behind enemy lines" - provided those enemies were NPCs...
While you have valid points it would do less to nothing to PVE experience and everything to mission running experience.
I would like them to be more stronger in buffer/resist tank to bridge to some extent ridiculous strategic cruiser resist profile,they are after all elite ships of sort much like start cruiser are or pirate ships,they simply should have more staying power than burst tank marauders.
And that is pretty much all that marauders are lazy oversize shield/armor booster with mediocre everything with engine strapped to them.
If you look at say pirate ships they are mighty awesome in pvp and pve what they do good in one thing do good in other as well they are built for pvp and just by that they are better in pve too.
Same goes to strat cruisers built for pvp excellent in pve as well ...missions wh incursions name it they will do/excell in it same as pirate ships.
But when it come to Marauders lazy oversize shield/armor booster with mediocre everything is their top achievement if you put them in god forbid PVE(let alone pvp) environment that actually have dps and tank to boot you will find them downgrade from mediocre to ball sucking bad,and no amount of tractor beam boost will help there.
And my uneducated conclusion is simple while for example pirate/T3 ships are built for pvp and that trickled down to pve nicely Marauders are not built for PVP or PVE they are carebear class and anything stronger than decade old AI rotting at the bottom of eve code will present as problem to them.
Time and eve it self overgrown them. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
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Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
881
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Posted - 2013.08.20 09:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Out of curiosity I just fitted varg in EveHQ. With my alt's skills I got 1100 omni tank, 930p dps from large t2 ACs but dat locking time! My mach will kill half of rats on field before varg would lock anything. I know Eve is not about instant gratification but I really admire anybody doing missions in marauders. Sorry but those ships are just terrible for anything beside coma inducing sessions. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
166
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Posted - 2013.08.20 09:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Out of curiosity I just fitted varg in EveHQ. With my alt's skills I got 1100 omni tank, 930p dps from large t2 ACs but dat locking time! My mach will kill half of rats on field before varg would lock anything. I know Eve is not about instant gratification but I really admire anybody doing missions in marauders. Sorry but those ships are just terrible for anything beside coma inducing sessions.
If by coma-inducing sessions you mean pve missions where you salvage everything then yes. That is what these ships are specifically and deliberately designed for. The designed team deliberately nerfed the sensor strength to actively discourage their use in PVP.
If you want to use PVE ships like marauders, orcas, rorquals, ventures, miners and industrials in PVP (yes I have done all these), then you have to accept some limitations. It's like using a Boeing 777 as an interceptor - not going to work very well (although actually the rorqual is epic in fleet pvp...)
If you want new T2 PVP battleships, that's another conversation but as mentioned above, you don't have to add very much to a T1 battleship to make it totally OP.
Example: imagine a T2 hyperion with: T2 armour resists double cap recharge rate
What you would have would be a ship that can perma-tank 4000dps while pushing out 1500dps for 15 minutes.
4000dps for 15 minutes works out to... 3.8 MILLION effective hitpoints. i.e. the same as a faction-pimped carrier.
It would just be too OP.
I agree that I'd like to see some more T2 options in battleships, but the dev team will need to be *really* careful with it.
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Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
348
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Posted - 2013.08.20 09:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
The only way I can see a balance option that's not guaranteeing opening the door to batsh*t insane crazy power is ...... modular options for them a-la the strat cruisers to segregate the different options.
/ducks. |
Whitehound
1883
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 10:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
What is up with all the impatience and calling CCP Fozzie "afraid"? Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
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Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
287
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 10:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:1. increase tractor range and speed to compete with the noctis 2. give a salvage bonus 3. allow pilots to accept and complete missions remotely, or run multiple missions for a single agent.
Then the marauder could really, "go for long periods behind enemy lines" - provided those enemies were NPCs...
It's still wrong.
Noctis has 8 High slots just for tractor beams and slavagers. using anything else for salvaging is just slow, tedious and not worth the time. There's nothing a million chinese guys can't do cheaper.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
881
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 13:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:If by coma-inducing sessions you mean pve missions where you salvage everything then yes. That is what these ships are specifically and deliberately designed for. The designed team deliberately nerfed the sensor strength to actively discourage their use in PVP.
Let's not forget that Eve is a game and it should have at least some fun factor involved. And I honestly don't see where fun factor can be found while flying marauders. Waiting 20 seconds for lock is not exactly fun you know, not even when amount of power you can unleash on already locked targets is godlike (which is not, pirate BSs can top those values "easily").
Maybe some bonus to sensor boosters would be a good idea for those ships? You would need to sacrifice med slot(s) to being able lock anything in pvp relevant times so less slots for shield tank/ewar. I won't pretend I can calculate pros and cons of such change but why marauders shouldn't be viable pvp ships? I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc Pandorum Invictus
316
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Posted - 2013.08.20 13:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Wait a minute fellas, marauders are pve ships. they are designed exclusively to be good at pve and bad at pvp. Hence the sensor strength.
Isn't what you want another class of T2 battleship for pvp?
But what would that look like? Mega-tanking monsters with huge dps, multi-neuts and a sensor strength of 50? It's way too OP.
Black ops is a nice idea but the ships themselves are too weak. Perhaps they need to be pimped a bit, or maybe able to warp cloaked...
While I agree in principle with the idea of battleships with extra abilities/strengths from their T2 status, I can't think of anything offhand that does not either break the game or step on the toes of faction/pirate battleships.
This is probably why the design team has not offered anything.
they were designed WAY back in the day to be that as a power balance thing. but, times have changed. in their presentation, they specifically stated they dont like assigning ships to either pvp or pve but instead give us a ship and watch how WE play with it.
the pirate ships have gotten SO much more powerful than ANY marauder in ANY field (except tractor and salvage). im ok with that, but to keep the ship gimped and not let it compete with anything is obsurd.
hell some bc are gaining on the dps side of a marauder. eve grew up. its being rebalanced. time to shed the old stigma surrounded this ship and make it a viable t2 fit warship.
and as was stated, i really care the direction they are going. he said they have a kewl idea...inquiring minds want to know. |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc Pandorum Invictus
316
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Posted - 2013.08.20 13:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:What is up with all the impatience and calling CCP Fozzie "afraid"? did u see the ---> =) <--- smiley face...means i was grinning when i said it. joking at the hundreds of pages about hacs and command ship bashing they have taken this month.
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Batelle
RisingSuns
161
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Posted - 2013.08.20 16:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
marauders should be a step above (most) of the pirate battleships in terms of dps and either projection or application, while continuing to be slower and with lower base HP. After all T2 = specialization, and right now pirate BS do the marauder role better than marauders without the downsides of crap electronics.
compared to t2 frigates and cruisers, the t2 resistance advantage of marauders is not huge. Raising their t2 resistances slightly would make them better in PVE, logi-supported PVP, make them tankier in solo applications, and accentuate one of their distinguishing characteristics over pirate ships.
improving sensor strength would make them more viable in PVP. It could be improved without eliminating this as a weakness or a distinguishing characteristic. I think marauders should be a viable fleet doctrine, and we would have an interesting situation where the ECM counter is done by jamming the DPS instead of the typical ECM targets like logi.
Marauder bonuses definitely need a look at. I think they should (continue to) be interesting and not restricted by racial lines of "TPs and webs belong to minmatar." Their local rep bonus and the tractor beam bonus is more or less fine, even if the goal is to make them viable PvP ships.
The trait of marauders using less turrets with the 100% bonus is a distinguishing characteristic that should be maintained. Fighting is Magic |
zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
33
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Posted - 2013.08.20 17:51:00 -
[26] - Quote
Batelle wrote: The trait of marauders using less turrets with the 100% bonus is a distinguishing characteristic that should be maintained.
there is a flaw in ur logic , look to cruise golem and it loss of dps from defenders. Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn |
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ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
597
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Posted - 2013.08.20 17:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
Quote:5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
22. Post constructively.
Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting. Thread locked. ISD LackOfFaith Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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