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Jova Askiras
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.08.21 16:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi fellow industrialists
I was going to try help our corp with producing some ships to sell at below Jita price for our roams and stuff
namely t1 battleships (domi / typhoon)
I ran numbers and I found:
Typhoon 1 run BPC ME 60, IND5 PE5 Manufacture cost (All Runs): 146 863 815.86 ISK Manufacture cost one unit: 146 863 815.86 ISK Minimum sell cost (All Runs): 149 801 092.18 ISK Minimum sell cost one unit: 149 801 092.18 ISK Market profit (All Runs): -20 456 588.12 ISK Market profit one unit: -20 456 588.12 ISK
Basically total minerals price is 20mil higher than Jita sell price of the ship.
This is with PE skill at 5 and well research BPO (ME60) Why do people even bother to make them then?
BTW same applies to a few other t1 battleships.
Please, how do, enlighten me. |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
561
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Posted - 2013.08.21 16:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Stockpiles.
Any industrialist who was paying attention knew about the mineral increase months before Odyssey. Many built huge stockpiles of ships before the mineral requirements increased and are selling them off above what it cost to build them but below what it would cost to build now.
No one (other than people who don't do the maths) would bother to build them now, same as with the cruisers after Retribution, the battlecruisers back in Feb, the mining barges last year |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
1824
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Posted - 2013.08.21 18:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
The way they used to be: https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/2/644/60/5/0/1
The way they are now: https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/0/644/60/5/0/1 Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Mister Saito
All Goats Must Die
0
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Posted - 2013.08.23 12:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
I had this same question, except in my case the issue was the Dominix. I made a classic newbie industrialist mistake: I trusted an out of game resource to have accurate BPO material costs. THIS WAS A GRAVE ERROR. I ran numbers on building Dominixes and was very pleased to learn that according to the Eve Industrialist website I'd be making several million ISK/hour churning out the popular ship. So I log on, and buy myself a BPO, get it to my POS system, and queue up a month of ME research.
I find out after it is done that the "base" mineral costs had added a gigantic amount of Tritanium, as well as other materials, converting the Dominix from a profitable ship into a huge ISK loser. I ended up selling the BPO back to the market, with ME5/PE5, for 100M less than I paid for it. The Dominix market is saturated, and as the poster above said, people "in the know" build them by the thousands and stockpiled them. What I don't understand is why they continue to sell them so far underneath the prices they could be demanding: it's going at a 15% premium underneath the material cost right now. Surely the stockpilers realize they can make more, and prices have not been trending upward...in fact they are selling for less than ever:
http://www.eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=645&limit=30#undefined
I am convinced that EVE's "industrialists" sometimes are terifying bad at reacting to market realities. It blows my mind that there are 4,500 Domis on th emarket, almost uniformly selling for 10-15% less than they could easily demand. I guess they overdid the stockpiles, but those trends go back all the way to before Odyssey. It suggests that people just believe a Domi is worth X amount of ISK, and will always sell it for that, until forced by loss to raise the prices. |
Mister Saito
All Goats Must Die
0
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Posted - 2013.08.23 12:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
I also want to know: why do some ships have this additional mineral cost that can't be improved via ME, and others do not? I presume CCP just wanted to make some ships more expensive to build so as to raise their prices and reduce their prevalence? But why not just raise the base cost, since ME can only save 10% of the cost anyway? Having two piles of minerals that can be used to build a ship, but only one pile can be affected by ME, seems silly. Why not just raise the overall cost and balance the economic predictions on an assumption of something like 1% worth of ME? |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
566
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Posted - 2013.08.23 12:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
Because if they had, I could have built 100 domis before the expansion, reprocessed them afterwards and created massive amount of minerals out of thin space. Extra materials aren't returned when reprocessed, so the ships built before the patch reprocess for exactly the same as was used to build them.
As for the prices, as the stockpiles reduce they'll go up. This was expected, it's happened with every single rebalanced ship since the retriever a year ago. Some people are happy to sell them for a profit now, others will wait until the prices have reached a stable point even if it takes many months.
Bear in mind opportunity cost. Say I have 200 domis sitting in my hanger, all built before the patch. I can sell them now for less profit and use that ISK to invest in other things, or I can wait months with that ISK tied up in ships that aren't going anywhere for a little more profit, but with the downside that the ISK has been unavailable for other investments for all those months. |
Rengerel en Distel
1784
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Posted - 2013.08.23 12:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mister Saito wrote:I also want to know: why do some ships have this additional mineral cost that can't be improved via ME, and others do not? I presume CCP just wanted to make some ships more expensive to build so as to raise their prices and reduce their prevalence? But why not just raise the base cost, since ME can only save 10% of the cost anyway? Having two piles of minerals that can be used to build a ship, but only one pile can be affected by ME, seems silly. Why not just raise the overall cost and balance the economic predictions on an assumption of something like 1% worth of ME?
If they had just increased the base materials, the day of the patch, industrialists would have reprocessed their stock of ships and created ungodly amounts of materials out of thin air.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Mister Saito
All Goats Must Die
0
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Posted - 2013.08.23 15:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
The reprocessing makes sense as why they did it, so I get that now...thank you for the explanation! But it still blows my mind that people are trying to sell them for a huge discount from the current production cost. Why would anyone try to sell a Dominix now at all? If you built them before the patch, then holding them makes the most sense because why would you ever sell for less than the current cost in materials? As for building/selling them after the patch? Don't even bother. That market is destroyed. I suppose it is possible that once stockpiles are depleted prices will rise, but the market has also developed an expectation of 150M ISK Domis. The "free minerals because I mined it" crowd will keep selling them at an effective loss. And I can't imagine anyone will ever pay the 180M to make a Domi profitable now that they are nerfing the ship to boot.
Luckily I found other, more lucrative options. :) But man, what a kick in the fork the Dominix has received on all fronts! |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
567
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Posted - 2013.08.23 16:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mister Saito wrote: If you built them before the patch, then holding them makes the most sense because why would you ever sell for less than the current cost in materials?
Again, opportunity cost (look it up).
If I have ISK tied up in a large pile of Domis, that's ISK I don't have free to invest in other endeavours. It may well be more worthwhile for me to sell the ships now for a good profit over what it cost me to make them and use that ISK elsewhere rather than sitting on a pile of ships for another few months with ISK tied up in them that I can't use elsewhere.
Quote:I suppose it is possible that once stockpiles are depleted prices will rise, but the market has also developed an expectation of 150M ISK Domis.
The prices will rise. Happened with the barges, happened with the cruisers, happened with most of the battlecruisers, will happen with the battleships. |
Riyal
Fluffles Inc. xXPlease Pandemic Citizens Reloaded Alliance.Xx
109
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Posted - 2013.08.24 14:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
I am often confused at some of the selling strategies on over produced items as well. I don't sell in Jita and so on occasion the price on Procurers and Cyclones will rise a respectable amount, this is always followed by someone dumping hundreds of units at the old (crap) price.
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Careby
Careby Exploration
18
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Posted - 2013.08.24 17:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mister Saito wrote:...Surely the stockpilers realize they can make more, and prices have not been trending upward...in fact they are selling for less than ever: http://www.eve-markets.net/detail?typeid=645&limit=30#undefinedI am convinced that EVE's "industrialists" sometimes are terifying bad at reacting to market realities. It blows my mind that there are 4,500 Domis on th emarket, almost uniformly selling for 10-15% less than they could easily demand... That would be true if the stockpiles were held by one player, or by an organized cartel. Stockpiles are large and demand is limited. When multiple sellers compete for the attention of a limited number of buyers, they do so by lowering their prices.
When you look at average prices and conclude that they do not fit your understanding of the facts, consider the possibility that it is not the prices that are wrong.
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Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
44
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Posted - 2013.08.25 10:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mister Saito wrote:I also want to know: why do some ships have this additional mineral cost that can't be improved via ME, and others do not? I presume CCP just wanted to make some ships more expensive to build so as to raise their prices and reduce their prevalence? But why not just raise the base cost, since ME can only save 10% of the cost anyway? Having two piles of minerals that can be used to build a ship, but only one pile can be affected by ME, seems silly. Why not just raise the overall cost and balance the economic predictions on an assumption of something like 1% worth of ME?
Those ships that do not have 'extra materials' requirements added to their BPO have not been 'rebalanced' yet. Personally I do not feel the 'rebalancing' that has taken place or been announced to date is in any way necessary or that the new ship stats or roles are improved. For instance the way mining vessels were before they were 'rebalanced' was much more preferable to the current situation for many reasons. All of the work hours used could have used instead to fix broken things like Corporation/Alliance Roles & Permissions for example. But I'm just bashing my head against the wall saying it. It's like talking to idiots.
Here's hoping the 'rebalancing' campaign doesn't extend past the T2 ships and touch the capital sized ships. |
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