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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 30 post(s) |
Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
34
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Posted - 2013.09.04 18:44:00 -
[2101] - Quote
Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference.
Now you get tank reduction? But doesn't it get a higher tank due to t2 resists? |
Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
34
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Posted - 2013.09.04 18:46:00 -
[2102] - Quote
Ranamar wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference. To be fair, the increase in native resists somewhat makes up for the on-hull tanking nerf, given that the old T2 resists for it were 25%/12.5%, and the new ones are going to be 50/25 or 75/50 or something like that. That's going to give the Vargur and the Paladin really entertaining resist profiles. @CCP Ytterbium: can you post the new resist profiles for the Marauders? i believe he edited the OP |
Jasper Blanch
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:46:00 -
[2103] - Quote
Aeril Malkyre wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons.
The ship is now loaded with bonuses that apply at wildly different ranges (webs at 10-12km, tractors at 40-48km, 100km MJD's, thus negating the need for the web bonus and overshooting the tractor bonus). Some will say versatility, others will say lack of focus. This is Typhoon Syndrome. Absolutely this. I was looking forward to the new marauder changes, or at least reserved judgement until I could try it out. Now I've got an odd mix of bonuses that all work at different ranges and have traded a dearly beloved old bonus (shield rep amount) for something that I've never felt the need for on my marauder(webs).
Damage resist profile changed, sure. Web bonus - ugh. |
Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
250
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:47:00 -
[2104] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference. Now you get tank reduction? But doesn't it get a higher tank due to t2 resists?
Golem in an Amarr mission now is going to fare much worse than before. Since its racial resists are kin/therm, it'll now suffer in EM and Explo-heavy missions. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
507
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:47:00 -
[2105] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:people don't understand that Native T2 resist affect indirectly the efficiency of repair modules, why are this kind of players even allowed to post? Native T2 resists aren't going to do anything if you're not fighting faction rats in the space that best utilizes those T2 resists. 30% flat increase to all resists would have applied to any faction rat. Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
114
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:47:00 -
[2106] - Quote
Zeus Maximo wrote: On the live server they only have 37.5%
With these new changes it will be 100% with bastion
100% is greater than 37.5%
You got a massive buff!!! You mad that it almost got tripled? and not quadrupled?
Except that the ability to tank outside of Bastion went down and some people still wanted them to be useful for that.
The problem with T2 resists for a mission ship over the 30% resists is that it's only useful against specific rats and what rats its useful against varies wildly depending on what you got.
The vast majority of NPCs deal either Kinetic or Thermal as their primary damage type and every NPC type has Kinetic or Thermal as either its primary or secondary damage type.
This means that the Golem, with its mixed Kin/Therm T2 resist buff gets the largest effective bonus to tank followed by the Kronus with heavy Kinetic resists and a moderate Thermal increase. The Vargur and Paladin on the other hand, despite now having excellent resist profiles for omni-tanking PvP or Incursions are now only gaining a resists advantage against their enemy's pirate faction rats and their opponent's navy. Plus they're now dealing the wrong damage for that enemy type, though this affects the damage-locked Amarr more than the Minmattar who can still swap to EMP or Proton and only lose a bit of damage on the inherent kinetic of Projectiles.
I'm not really sorry to see the repair bonus go, but only as long as it was replaced with something that's still useful in Bastion. A Web-Velocity bonus is not terribly useful in Bastion.
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1492
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:50:00 -
[2107] - Quote
Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference. Now you get tank reduction? But doesn't it get a higher tank due to t2 resists? Tank modules 1x LAAR DC RAH 1x ENAM II Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Old Bastion Module Rep = 1873.35 EHP/s New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s
Just for fun
Without Bastion Module on (old) 655.67 EHP/s Without Bastion Module on (new) 620.74 EHP/s Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
78
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:50:00 -
[2108] - Quote
I'll deal with all three of you at once:
Battle Cube wrote:
Now you get tank reduction? But doesn't it get a higher tank due to t2 resists?
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Why do you claim that it's tank has been reduced by a third? It now has T2 resistances. Resistances contribute to local tank just like local rep bonuses.
That's just simple mathematics.
Ager Agemo wrote:people don't understand that Native T2 resist affect indirectly the efficiency of repair modules, why are this kind of players even allowed to post?
Here it is fellas:
Amarr T1 Resists: Thermal: 35% EM: 50%
Amarr T2 Resists: Thermal: 35% EM: 50%
Guess what type of damage Amarr mission runners tank. Go on, guess.
Tech II resists are almost completely worthless in Amarr space. They increase our tank against NPC Minnies and Angels, neither of which should be engaged because they are hyper tanked against our EM/Therm lasers.
So, when I say that these changes nerf my tank by 37.5%, it's because that's exactly what it does.
EDIT: And Cade beat me to it. Again. |
Onslaughtor
Carbon Dateing
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:51:00 -
[2109] - Quote
Well now that you removed the bastion modes useful resits (30%) and instead gave the hull the only semi useful racial t2 resists, and removed the mass increase that would have made sliding in bastion possible. At this point just let bastion have RR and move.
You still could not warp or use prop mods but at least then bastion will be useful in pvp. Actually if you did that, limit the max speed to half so they can't warp off instantly after bastion. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
143
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:51:00 -
[2110] - Quote
A small suggestion for the Paladin:
Swap the cap bonus with the damage bonus. That way all the marauders have their damage bonus on the battleship skill. |
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Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
507
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:52:00 -
[2111] - Quote
Battle Cub wrote:Now you get tank reduction? But doesn't it get a higher tank due to t2 resists? T2 resists are only going to provide for stronger tanking if the rat's damage profile matches the increased T2 resist profile. Otherwise, you're losing any benefit provided by a T2 resist profile. The "old" 30% omni resist buff from Bastion 1.0 would have applied to any faction rat.
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
19
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Posted - 2013.09.04 18:52:00 -
[2112] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:
The marauder as it stands is now better at hisec PVE
How? How is a Paladin made better by these changes? The tank has been massively reduced by over a third, and it's mobility cut by over a quarter. It's EHP against the only damage type that matters in Amarr space is the exact same. EDIT: Oh, excuse me, it's less, because of the HP reduction. Why do you claim that it's tank has been reduced by a third? It now has T2 resistances. Resistances contribute to local tank just like local rep bonuses. That's just simple mathematics.
The resists are nice by themselves, but depending on the incoming damage type this is a nerf or a buff with local tank.. I don't really mind that, but it makes the use of the bastion module itself less compelling. The original post allowed for more risk more gain which is what this game is all about right?
and again the web bonus doesnt fit with the current iteration of the bastion module. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
507
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:53:00 -
[2113] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Ravasta Helugo wrote:Battle Cube wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:some of us liked the 1st iteration more :( the new version is almost identical to the original - the bastion mode still behaves the same still having high resists and great local tank. Only now, the regular mode isn't nerfed to compensate. Furthermore, in situations where you would attempt to leave bastion mode in order to get reped, your resists don't go down, meaning its a whole lot more possible to accept reps. Before, pre-bastion your tank was the exact same as it is now. Same mods=same stats. Post bastion you got a flat 30% resist and 100% tank boost. Now, pre-bastion you get a 37.5% tank reduction, with a very modest (and situationally useless) EHP boost. In bastion the tank is boosted to 45% higher than the current non-bastion amount. That's a significant difference. Now you get tank reduction? But doesn't it get a higher tank due to t2 resists? Tank modules 1x LAAR DC RAH 1x ENAM II Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Old Bastion Module Rep = 1873.35 EHP/s New Bastion Module Rep = 1241.48 EHP/s Just for fun Without Bastion Module on (old) 655.67 EHP/s Without Bastion Module on (new) 620.74 EHP/s "Buff," isn't it Zeus?
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
317
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:56:00 -
[2114] - Quote
One minute the forums are full of whining that missiles and blasters can't hit small ships that move fast.
Now you have a web that will slow them down so you can clean them off without having to MJD away and play contrived tracking games.
Only someone who has never fired a large blaster at an orbiting frigate or a torpedo at any frigate would claim that the web bonus is a bad thing.
Winter marauders - getting better.
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Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1374
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:57:00 -
[2115] - Quote
Nothing on the phony fake not-real Paldain capacitor bonus? :( |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
173
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:58:00 -
[2116] - Quote
Okay it seems more balanced now.
Thing with racial resists is it means ships can be tailored to content. I understand the debate over tank but with the new version but if you want to run content against serpentis then you probably have even stronger tank than before, but still need to make choices depending on the space you are in.
The mass change removal I am unsure about, bumping concerns me and it perhaps would have seemed better to prevent ships in bastion jumping through wormholes.
The hull resist bonus could also have been kept, it only added EHP in a last resort area with seemed appropriate.
Still think you can be smarter with the skill requirements than high energy physics. Advanced Spaceship command seems more appropriate for transforming. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1268
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 18:59:00 -
[2117] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:people don't understand that Native T2 resist affect indirectly the efficiency of repair modules, why are this kind of players even allowed to post?
the only 2 things I disagree with now, are the MJD stuff that should be replaced with MWD speed, and the target painter bonus on the golem which is already a bit too squeezed in the mid slots.
ah ok i forgot that tech II tank will help my golem against sansha because? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Jasper Blanch
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:02:00 -
[2118] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:One minute the forums are full of whining that missiles and blasters can't hit small ships that move fast.
Now you have a web that will slow them down so you can clean them off without having to MJD away and play contrived tracking games.
Only someone who has never fired a large blaster at an orbiting frigate or a torpedo at any frigate would claim that the web bonus is a bad thing.
With an afterburner and selective targeting, most frigs are usually dead before they get near enough to orbit. If they're not, I've got light drones. I've also used smartbombs to effectively deal with close frigs. Nice thing about marauders is all those utility highs. Now throw an MJD on and if it gets really bad, you can just mjd away. |
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
82
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:02:00 -
[2119] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:One minute the forums are full of whining that missiles and blasters can't hit small ships that move fast.
Now you have a web that will slow them down so you can clean them off without having to MJD away and play contrived tracking games.
Only someone who has never fired a large blaster at an orbiting frigate or a torpedo at any frigate would claim that the web bonus is a bad thing.
When it comes at the expense of 37.5% of my tank it is most certainly a bad thing. Otherwise it would simply be useless, but the latest substitution just makes it bad. |
zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:03:00 -
[2120] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote: Only someone who has never fired a large blaster at an orbiting frigate or a torpedo at any frigate would claim that the web bonus is a bad thing.
okay . explain me that dual marauder golem bonus. for me is freaky stupid combination . Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn |
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TheFace Asano
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
19
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Posted - 2013.09.04 19:05:00 -
[2121] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:One minute the forums are full of whining that missiles and blasters can't hit small ships that move fast.
Now you have a web that will slow them down so you can clean them off without having to MJD away and play contrived tracking games.
Only someone who has never fired a large blaster at an orbiting frigate or a torpedo at any frigate would claim that the web bonus is a bad thing.
The web bonus is not a bad thing, it just doesn't make any sense with the bastion module on as the main damage projection bonus is not a factor within web range. The original proposal made sense. Yitterbium stated you could hit out to 50-60km with null. Unless the frig has transversal your going to blap him at that range. The web bonus would make more sense if you could use it out to 50km+ where all these ships can hit even with their respective short range systems. The proposal (outside of the tractor beam bonus) had great fusion and weaknesses to balance the strengths.
Keep the current proposal if you want, but make sure that the web bonus works with the full set of bonus for the bastion module. Right now I don't see a reason to turn on the bastion module with a 60 second MJD and webs outside of the local tank boost. Buffer fit with logi and you wouldn't even think about turning it on and be stronger for leaving it off.
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Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
87
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:07:00 -
[2122] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:One minute the forums are full of whining that incursions are impossible to run without a 90% Web...
Fixed. |
Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
58
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:09:00 -
[2123] - Quote
I cannot remember the last time I used/needed a web for PvE in k-space.
Maybe wormhole PvE might have a use for it if they're not already using 90% webs or a different/better set up.
Overall my opinion of the changes is still "meh". Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. Never forgotten, never forgiven. |
marVLs
396
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:11:00 -
[2124] - Quote
Until now all ships rebalance was good or even awesome with next iterations, but now... it's still as bad as it was, no real purpose, bonuses that collide with each other in terms of sens and usefulnes, and even if it's T2 it's still not best in even one porpose...
And most of that could fix bastion damage bonus instead of rep bonus |
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:14:00 -
[2125] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:.
Delete this part:
When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec (being investigated)
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Captain Semper
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
33
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Posted - 2013.09.04 19:14:00 -
[2126] - Quote
Ok, here i am :)
CCP, if you realy want players use Marauders in PvP, you should think about it price... 1+k k k ! Realy? I m better use Mega instead of Kronos. Mobility is most important attribute in PvP and marauders as BS have realy low mobility. And you give them module that will decrease mobility even more!... Ofc MJD with lower activation cycle is cool... But 80 sec in siege make you dead in most situation. How about 40 sec bastion activation time (30 with skill5). So marauders will be more flexible in PvP and "no change" in PvE in that case. Make them cheaper. "But cost no matters! People use Tengu fleets!" Well, cost always matters. When fleets clash, only cost difference matter at all. Nobody will use marauders even in small gangs becuase of mobility (gate camp? No, you cant run if something will goes wrong, and you lose 1+ k k k isk). If you want BS gang you wont use this marauders, becuase you cant heal them with logi (for today like 90% of all gangs have 2+ logi).
So what we have? "Solo" ship that still useless in PvP becuase you cant run if you use "core" mechanic of the ship, 80 sec of double rep (5 T3 will blow you up in 20-30 sec) + you cant move. In gang it still useless, becuase enemy fire power will grow as well and you cant tank with logi like them. Your enemy just will blow marauders with alpha.
In PvE marauders will be much better. Mb i will even buy Kronos! |
George Fox
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Renaissance Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:15:00 -
[2127] - Quote
I go against a lot of different types of rats.
The flat 30% resist was a lot more useful than T2 resists. Also, the changes really detract from the usefulness of Bastion mode.
If you are going to make a bastion mode...MAKE a bastion mode. Don't gimp it, and then complain later that nobody uses it. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
55
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:17:00 -
[2128] - Quote
I still can't believe people are complaining about level fours. If you need T2 resists to tank level fours, I don't know how to fix what's wrong with you.
BTW, the Paladin is still far far superior to any turret ship for Amarr space because bastion mode makes you immune to tracking disruptors. |
zbaaca
POD Based Lifeforms DarkSide.
34
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:18:00 -
[2129] - Quote
i have a good question. please explain me WHY CNR have 8/7/5 and golem 8/7/4 Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
133
|
Posted - 2013.09.04 19:20:00 -
[2130] - Quote
Jesus H Christ in a chicken basket, I just got through the posts complaining about the 'useless' web bonus...
Gallente MkII: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1227770 War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293 |
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