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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
86
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Posted - 2013.08.30 15:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I've said this a lot, but I'll say it again!
I think the problem is not that ECM is too powerful. I actually prefer to use damage drones over ECM drones almost always and I'm not even flying in bigger fleets where ECM drones get worse. The problem is just that the mechanic is punishing for both the victim and the perpetrator. The combination of chance-based success along with a very harsh binary effect makes it miserable for both sides (unless you like griefing, which a lot of people do of course =).
Rather than adjust the power level I'd love to rework the mechanic so that its more fun to use and fly against. Maybe someday!
OMG not another minigame... |
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
378
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Posted - 2013.08.30 15:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
Don Purple wrote:I have never seen ecm drones get off more than one or two good bursts before they are useless. Confirming I see them next to a lot of wrecks as well. Confirming I have an extensive collection of salvaged ECM drones - I may never need to buy one, ever. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1137
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 15:59:00 -
[33] - Quote
wowyouareacow wrote:They are WAY more powerful than damage ones in a solo or small gang engagement. I can understand EWAR that reduces damage/lock speed etc, but totally disabling your opponent for as long as ECM does is overpowered.
It doesn't totally disable you, your drones still attack, fire and forget missiles still work, smartbombs still work, your defenses and propulsion still work.
I'm sorry you're a one trick pony, probably a maxed dps glass cannon without a single anti ewar module. Oh wait, no I'm not. Cry more. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Suddenly Spaceships.
882
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Posted - 2013.08.30 16:29:00 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I've said this a lot, but I'll say it again!
I think the problem is not that ECM is too powerful. I actually prefer to use damage drones over ECM drones almost always and I'm not even flying in bigger fleets where ECM drones get worse. The problem is just that the mechanic is punishing for both the victim and the perpetrator. The combination of chance-based success along with a very harsh binary effect makes it miserable for both sides (unless you like griefing, which a lot of people do of course =).
Rather than adjust the power level I'd love to rework the mechanic so that its more fun to use and fly against. Maybe someday!
everyone knows ECM sucks, that doesn't solve the problem of ECM drones being a "lol no gudfights allowed" button |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1231
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Posted - 2013.08.30 16:33:00 -
[35] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Rather than adjust the power level I'd love to rework the mechanic so that its more fun to use and fly against. Maybe someday!
Maybe you could design it so that the ECM ship ejects clowns and balloons to distract the enemy. That would be fun. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
321
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Posted - 2013.08.30 16:52:00 -
[36] - Quote
ECM should only disable High slots and drone commands, but NOT tackle or locks.
For example: a ship with a sensor strength of 12 is hit with a jam of strength 16. He loses 4 high slots. These could be command links, salvagers, neuts, nos, smartbombs, bombs, and most importantly: GUNS. If the excess jam power exceeds 8, have it disable the ability to give drone commands, too.
Hell, make it even more interesting: If any of the jam strength beats out sensor strength, disable the ability to use broadcasts.
Most importantly, turning on ECCM AFTER you are jammed will have an immediate effect. I love Dust514. But it needs more EVE. Read my idea on how to do this at General Tso's Alliance blog: http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2013/06/dust514-uprising-needs-moar-eve.html |
Trudeaux Margaret
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
124
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Posted - 2013.08.30 17:05:00 -
[37] - Quote
Ruskarn Andedare wrote:wowyouareacow wrote:ECM drones are OP, please save us CCP Rise (aka: Kil2)! While you are at it, could you possibly look at adjusting ECM to be more in line with other EWAR? Seriously man, learn the resist skills
^ This, twice.
. |
destiny2
Abh Academy Abh Alliance
165
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Posted - 2013.08.30 17:09:00 -
[38] - Quote
the poster obviously doesnt know what a smartbomb is |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1234
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Posted - 2013.08.30 17:19:00 -
[39] - Quote
destiny2 wrote:the poster obviously doesnt know what a smartbomb is
Someone obviously doesn't know what a ship without a utility high is. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
146
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Posted - 2013.08.30 17:31:00 -
[40] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Warning: CCP Rise answer imminent. Action stations, action stations, set condition 1 throughout the ship.
We have 4 basestars out there, "jumps drives?" still working on getting them online. "oh frak me" |
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Jumpshot244
EntroPrelatial Industria Here Be Dragons
29
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Posted - 2013.08.30 17:40:00 -
[41] - Quote
Did I miss a memo? Since when is winning a fight not considered "good" or "fun" ? |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1236
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Posted - 2013.08.30 17:53:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jumpshot244 wrote:Did I miss a memo? Since when is winning a fight not considered "good" or "fun" ?
It's always good and fun. Just make sure and congratulate your ECM pilots on their kills, folks. You couldn't have done it without them, and it's always nice to give credit where it's due. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
676
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:09:00 -
[43] - Quote
Yet again, the ECM drone defense crew is here.
"Train your skills"
"Use smartbombs"
"Fit ECCMs or Backup Arrays"
See, ECM is annoying, but ECM ships are reasonable to counter.
It takes effort to deploy a Falcon/Scorpion/Blackbird. Someone is flying it. And there are counters.
You can just avoid them.
You can neut them if they're close, and recons have terrible cap.
You can just burn away from them as it will lower their jamming effects.
You can fit ECCMs because that's how you counter those specific ECM ships.
Now let's take a look at ECM drones.
They cost almost nothing.
They can be deployed by pretty much every ship in EVE except some frigates.
There are 5 of them, you have to lock them all and because they are small, they take a while to lock.
They don't really care which race you are, they'll jam you anyway.
They don't really care how far you are from anything, small drones you know.
They die to smartbombs, except when you're in a ship that can not possibly fit one.
FoFs ? Ahah nah seriously dude.
Their only counter (Other than "shoot them with your own drones", that you can only do when you don't get INSTAJAMMED FOR 20S) is ECCM/Signal Backup Arrays. So what, am I supposed to fit those slot-consuming modules in order to counter super-cheap drones that can come out of any ship ?
No sir, that is bad gameplay. ECM as a whole is pretty bad, but specific ECM boats are sort of alright, the problem comes from the mechanic itself.
And the mechanic itself combined with light drones that can be used in literally every ship in EVE becomes the terribly annoying anti-goodfight tool that we all know.
Just delete them until you find a good way to fix them. Period. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
3350
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 19:22:00 -
[44] - Quote
Some features we don't have that would really help countering ECM (aside from using ECCM). These are "damage dealing" counters.
Combat drones we have, but what use are they when we can't really tell drones what to do when being jammed? If combat drones could take directives on target priority, we would see less complaining about ECM. If combat drones could be given directives on what to attack automatically, like ECM sources, web/scram attacks, etc, It would be helpful. Rather sucks when the drones are on the tackler when you want to fight, or the drones are on the painter when you want to run.
Careful maneuvering with FOF missiles could be considered, but I have seen FOF missiles target enemy NPC hangars. They tend to go with "closest threat", so naturally an ECM ship can hang back while a fast tackler outruns the explosion speed and blast radius of the missiles. Yet I have seen 20th century military technology with "Home On Jam" capabilities. Thus while FOF missiles remain a joke for the present obvious reasons, it might be suitable to go deeper into the concept than to move away from it, and an expanded concept of "home on jam" missiles and such similar specialized missiles along the lines of FOF/Defender might prove useful.
So useful in fact that instead of having to sacrifice midslots (tank or tackle in many cases) ECM can be dealt with by an expanded range of ammo choices and some user-settings for drones' targeting priority (or "tactical order" as it's called).
FOF and defenders have been laughed at for years, and many have begged for better control of drones for probably just as long.
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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
794
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Posted - 2013.08.30 19:40:00 -
[45] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Some features we don't have that would really help countering ECM (aside from using ECCM). These are "damage dealing" counters.
Combat drones we have, but what use are they when we can't really tell drones what to do when being jammed? If combat drones could take directives on target priority, we would see less complaining about ECM. If combat drones could be given directives on what to attack automatically, like ECM sources, web/scram attacks, etc, It would be helpful. Rather sucks when the drones are on the tackler when you want to fight, or the drones are on the painter when you want to run.
Careful maneuvering with FOF missiles could be considered, but I have seen FOF missiles target enemy NPC hangars. They tend to go with "closest threat", so naturally an ECM ship can hang back while a fast tackler outruns the explosion speed and blast radius of the missiles. Yet I have seen 20th century military technology with "Home On Jam" capabilities. Thus while FOF missiles remain a joke for the present obvious reasons, it might be suitable to go deeper into the concept than to move away from it, and an expanded concept of "home on jam" missiles and such similar specialized missiles along the lines of FOF/Defender might prove useful.
So useful in fact that instead of having to sacrifice midslots (tank or tackle in many cases) ECM can be dealt with by an expanded range of ammo choices and some user-settings for drones' targeting priority (or "tactical order" as it's called).
FOF and defenders have been laughed at for years, and many have begged for better control of drones for probably just as long.
I take it you mean stuff like this --> http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/alarm.cfm
if ccp changed ecm to work differently, then the whiners will just start crying that some other ewar aspect is OP
scrablers/disrupters stop you from running way ... nerf them neuts leave you incapable of running modules .. nerf them etc etc
bitches to need to man up |
Sven Viko VIkolander
Stay Frosty.
86
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Posted - 2013.08.30 19:55:00 -
[46] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I've said this a lot, but I'll say it again!
I think the problem is not that ECM is too powerful. I actually prefer to use damage drones over ECM drones almost always and I'm not even flying in bigger fleets where ECM drones get worse. The problem is just that the mechanic is punishing for both the victim and the perpetrator. The combination of chance-based success along with a very harsh binary effect makes it miserable for both sides (unless you like griefing, which a lot of people do of course =).
Rather than adjust the power level I'd love to rework the mechanic so that its more fun to use and fly against. Maybe someday!
ECM not too powerful?? Even after all those solo roams you attempted with a single Griffin following you, jamming you and ruining your fun?? One would expect Kil2 to finally take revenge against ECM! Or maybe you are going to do so but trying to pretend like you don't think it is OP... |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
676
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:24:00 -
[47] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote: scrablers/disrupters stop you from running way ... nerf them neuts leave you incapable of running modules .. nerf them etc etc
bitches to need to man up
Show me an Ewar that prevents you from using every and all targetted modules and prevent you from controlling your drones.
There is none.
Sensor dampening just reduce your lock-range or lock speed, which you can counter by moving closer to your targets, neuts leave you incapable of running modules except when they are passive modules, except when you have a capbooster, except when you have a NOS, oh and max neut range is about 37km on Armageddons and Curses.
I don't need to go on for hours, my point is, ECM drones are **** and should be removed asap. |
Tarn Kugisa
Infinite Covenant Tribal Band
439
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 20:33:00 -
[48] - Quote
I always keep a few flights in my carrier never hurts and they're always handy I Endorse this Product and/or Service EVE Online Battle Recorder When I press F1 I get ISK |
William Darkk
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
12
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Posted - 2013.08.30 20:52:00 -
[49] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: that or increase base jam for medium and large ecm drones...
No, the problem is that having 4 kinds of heavy ecm drone in your bay is too much room. No subcap can hold a full flight of each. |
Longinius Spear
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
169
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Posted - 2013.08.30 21:42:00 -
[50] - Quote
You know what would be crazy? If they made mid slot item that effected if you were to be jammed or not. This should go the list of reasonable things.
But then again, nobody would fit it on there ships because hay... that would make sense right? Co-host of Down the Pipe Podcast Read more of my ramblings on my blog Invading Your Hole
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Obunagawe
219
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Posted - 2013.08.30 21:46:00 -
[51] - Quote
They're just "run away" drones. And sooner or later, someone is going to escape who should have died, and ruin a good 1v1. |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
676
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 22:27:00 -
[52] - Quote
Longinius Spear wrote:You know what would be crazy? If they made mid slot item that effected if you were to be jammed or not. This should go the list of reasonable things.
But then again, nobody would fit it on there ships because hay... that would make sense right?
ECCM themselves are stupid.
Alright, let's take in account the fact that every ship in EVE can instajam you with a flight of 5 supercheap light drones.
Knowing that every ship has this threat, you'll fit an ECCM right ?
Congratulation, you're sort of alright vs ECM now (Carriers with 2 ECCMs still get jammed because :random: but whatever).
You're also worse versus everything else (That slot you used could have been more tank, more tackle, more tracking/range etc). And the ECCM module is 100% USELESS when not fighting vs ships that use ECM drones or vs ECM ships.
A sensor booster counters a damp. But it's useful even when you're not being damped, right ?
A tracking computer counters a tracking disruptor. But it's useful even when you're not being tracking disrupted, right ?
A cap booster counters neuts. But it's useful even when not being neuted, right ?
With ECCM, it goes like this :
An ECCM counters ECM modules. And it's worthless in every other situation.
So yeah, stop acting like ECCM is super great and everyone is just too dumb to use it. ECM is just bad as a whole and ECM drones are the cherry on the cake of stupidness. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1256
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 23:05:00 -
[53] - Quote
i came up with an idea a while ago on how to fix ecm.
Step one.
remove the ability to break the lock of ship.
step two. Because ECM no longer works as a chance to break lock anymore we need to change what sensor strength actually means.
My proposal is to overhaul sensor strength to have a direct affect on applied damage from turrets and drones.
Optimal range tracking falloff you here about this all the time but what do they all boil down to? well its a number somewhere between 0-1 thats it.
and this number is then rated against X which is also a random number between 0-1
x is supposed to be the randomness of a fight that would make a hit go from miss to perfect strike.
I personally think this random factor should be manipulated by the ships sensor strength.
Ok so how does this tie into ecm/eccm and sensor strength?
now your ships sensor strength will directly affect how x is calculated.
example of how this would work:
i am in a black bird and i use white noise ecm on a minnie ship.
as long as the minnie ship has positive sensor strength x can never reach 0 which means you cant get a perfect strike on the ship.
but as soon as you use enough ecm on the minnie ship and his overall sensor strength goes below 0 then x can no longer go as high as 1. which will mean as long as your chance to hit number is higher then the highest possible number x can reach you will always hit.
i would then add sig resolution to ecm mods. give it a resolution of 300m which would mean frigs and crusiers would have a reduced overall affect. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4260
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Posted - 2013.08.30 23:11:00 -
[54] - Quote
So everyone should be carrying ECM drones and using them on everyone else? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
wowyouareacow
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2013.08.30 23:41:00 -
[55] - Quote
Thanks for your response, CCP Rise. So far I usually fit damage drones too, because often when you're fighting outnumbered you need to burst down targets rather quickly. ECM Drones may not be "OP" per se... but I believe they are not fun and thus should be reworked . |
Selina Crendraven
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
0
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Posted - 2013.08.31 00:42:00 -
[56] - Quote
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:ECM should only disable High slots and drone commands, but NOT tackle or locks.
For example: a ship with a sensor strength of 12 is hit with a jam of strength 16. He loses 4 high slots. These could be command links, salvagers, neuts, nos, smartbombs, bombs, and most importantly: GUNS. If the excess jam power exceeds 8, have it disable the ability to give drone commands, too.
Hell, make it even more interesting: If any of the jam strength beats out sensor strength, disable the ability to use broadcasts.
Most importantly, turning on ECCM AFTER you are jammed will have an immediate effect.
This man is a hero and his post speaks the complete truth! |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3218
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 03:21:00 -
[57] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jake Warbird wrote:'Help! Only other people's ECM drones work!' I figure its because they hate me or something :( I know the feel, bro. :( |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
677
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Posted - 2013.08.31 09:38:00 -
[58] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:So everyone should be carrying ECM drones and using them on everyone else?
"Something is OP, maybe it will become not-OP if everyone can use it ?" |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
654
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 11:31:00 -
[59] - Quote
Obunagawe wrote:They're just "run away" drones. And sooner or later, someone is going to escape who should have died, and ruin a good 1v1.
This. The unfun is not in losing. It's about situations like this. It's about getting a bored seeing the same setups with their same Falcon alts each and every time. Predictability and repetition make for boring PVP. Sure, we all like winning and I fully agree you should do everything in your power to win. I just find that one specific tool given is too prevalent and scales badly. Getting rid of disincentives to PVP is always good. I wouldn't mind if it was changed to a mechanic that scales better. |
Whitehound
1941
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 12:41:00 -
[60] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I've said this a lot, but I'll say it again!
I think the problem is not that ECM is too powerful. I actually prefer to use damage drones over ECM drones almost always and I'm not even flying in bigger fleets where ECM drones get worse. The problem is just that the mechanic is punishing for both the victim and the perpetrator. The combination of chance-based success along with a very harsh binary effect makes it miserable for both sides (unless you like griefing, which a lot of people do of course =).
Rather than adjust the power level I'd love to rework the mechanic so that its more fun to use and fly against. Maybe someday! Get out. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
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