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DHB WildCat
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
243
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Posted - 2013.08.31 12:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
This kinetic bonus is silly. Caldari already do less damage than all the other races and tbh only being able to use one bonused type of ammo is just dumb.
A lot of other ships get 10% bonuses, and I know people will shout about being able to select damage types. Thats fine caldari having less base dps and bonuses for 5% instead of 10% will still keep them in line.
Please change ./......
5% Bonus to Kinetic Missile Damage
to
5% Bonus to Missile damage.
Thank you,
WildCat |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
492
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Posted - 2013.08.31 13:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Supported. For a while it looked like CCP were heading away from this with some ship changes however not all the updated ships lost the kinetic bonus on favour of a missile bonus. Lieutenant Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District |
Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
60
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
are ccp scared of caldari missile power? rof plus damage bonuses to this weapon type based on hull isn't game breaking necessarily when using turret minmatar as an example Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
222
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Posted - 2013.08.31 14:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
DHB WildCat wrote:This kinetic bonus is silly. Caldari already do less damage than all the other races and tbh only being able to use one bonused type of ammo is just dumb.
A lot of other ships get 10% bonuses, and I know people will shout about being able to select damage types. Thats fine caldari having less base dps and bonuses for 5% instead of 10% will still keep them in line.
Please change ./......
5% Bonus to Kinetic Missile Damage
to
5% Bonus to Missile damage.
Thank you,
WildCat
minmatar get the damage AND a decent percentage break in ammo to get type damage selection. For some reason they forget this when doing guns vs' missiles.....only seem to remember for minmatar vs amar lasers. Odd isn't it.
I'd +1 this only because it would add an element of surprise. Non blue roam caldari missile cruiser/bc heavy coming up the pipe. YOu don't have to guess the ammo used....cn kinetic is damn near SOP. Gee....what resists shall I fit before undocking to welcome our new guests? I was an exception to this....when I draked it in pvp I'd pack some say EM. Good for catching people off guard sometimes. damage still sucked...but made more sense than shooting a target they went for mega high kinetic resists with kinetic ammo.
Also don't see an op aspect. Changing ammos will be new areas for some caldari pilots if the missiles only type. Even some gun users forget to swtich ammo's from time to time. And they have been doing this for a while. I see quite a few caldari missile chuckers making ammo mistaktes alot for a while after if this change happened. Hell some sad missile chuckers based on their profiles can't even remember what to use jsut 4 ammos on. they have that guide in thier bio for easy reference.
My minmatar and hybird boats rolled out with no less than 6 ammos. And they were based on range and such in addition to damage numbers in addition to personal preference. |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
96
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Posted - 2013.08.31 14:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Only if we also get these: - Lasers with Explosive and Kinetic damage - Hybrids with Exlosive and EM damage
Would you be ok with those?
For those whining about Minmatar having pure damage type selection: That selection is limited to only few ammo types and all of them are somewhat short range. Hostile is at long range? Load T2 ammo and say goodbye to your damage type selection. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
126
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 14:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
everyone seems to forget how falloff works for minmatar ships. missiles dont have that problem. only problem they have is shooting big missiles at small ships. which turrets have problems with as well, but at close range, where the falloff isnt bad yet |
Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
60
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Posted - 2013.08.31 15:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
You're funny. Missiles have issues with applying damage properly to small targets. Or moving targets. Which covers pretty much all pvp out there if you think about it. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
126
|
Posted - 2013.08.31 15:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
so do turrets. we call it tracking. the smaller the turret/missile the less of a problem it is. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
222
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Posted - 2013.08.31 15:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Only if we also get these: - Lasers with Explosive and Kinetic damage - Hybrids with Exlosive and EM damage
Would you be ok with those?
For those whining about Minmatar having pure damage type selection: That selection is limited to only few ammo types and all of them are somewhat short range. Hostile is at long range? Load T2 ammo and say goodbye to your damage type selection.
lasers and hybrids can work tracking games to hit targets better. Only so much you can do with missiles till you go screw chasing the eft dragon....its a waste of time. You get less damage selection, but hit more with what you got.
CCP for example had to "nerf" moros of late. Limited damage selection....but damn good at blapping even sub caps sometimes. Phoenix is nerf proof.....its a flaming turd already. It getting all missiles damage boosted wuold not even fix it. But it be someting until ccp reveals their grand rebalance for it (if it even is in planning). |
Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
60
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Posted - 2013.08.31 15:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Phoenix would probably be fixed by merely boosting the explosion velocity of capital torps/cruises. Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |
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DHB WildCat
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
245
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Posted - 2013.08.31 17:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Only if we also get these: - Lasers with Explosive and Kinetic damage - Hybrids with Exlosive and EM damage
Would you be ok with those?
For those whining about Minmatar having pure damage type selection: That selection is limited to only few ammo types and all of them are somewhat short range. Hostile is at long range? Load T2 ammo and say goodbye to your damage type selection.
I would be fine with this, but then you would have to raise the base damage of missiles to be inline with guns, and also give missiles 10% bonuses instead of the current 5%.
Please dont forget that most turret ships have better base damage ammo, with double damage / rof bonuses. Making turret ships do much more dps than their missile counterparts.
Also a little note about tracking..... Turret ships can play traverse games and hit for full damage with minimal traverse. Even if a ship has 0 traverse on a missile ship the missile still wont do much damage due to the ships size and speed.
There is absolutely no comparison here at all. Missile ships need some love and the all missile damage bonus wont even begin to bring them on par with the turret ships, but its a good start.
Wild |
DHB WildCat
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
247
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Posted - 2013.09.01 21:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
bump.... kil2 pls explain this to me
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Lorren Canada
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
255
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Posted - 2013.09.01 21:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Silly? More like stupid |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1288
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
DHB WildCat wrote:
Please dont forget that most turret ships have better base damage ammo, with double damage / rof bonuses. Making turret ships do much more dps than their missile counterparts.
Please don't forget that in range of target, turret ships can miss completely. Missiles don't. If you are within range, you do damage with every volley.
ETA: Also don't fail to forget that due to missile mechanics, you can play metagames to extend your effective missile range that turrets cannot. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
79
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kinetic is Caldari's racial damage type. It's not going to go away any more than Lasers are going to start dealing Explosive Damage.
In PvP it's actually one of the best damage types to deal because EM and Explosive holes tend to be plugged to above lowest resistance value leaving either Kinetic or Thermal as the lowest resist. The obvious exception is Gallente T2 ships because of their innate kinetic resist but then you automatically know to deal another type of damage.
Also Projectiles actually have inherently lower DPS than missiles for their range.
This is a graph of 3 Myrmidons using 720mm artillery with the three ranges of T1 Projectile ammo vs a Drake using 5 Heavy Missile Launchers loaded with Thermal ammunition.
This is a graph of 3 Myrmidons using 425mm Autocannons with the three ranges of T1 Projectile ammo vs a Drake using 5 HAM Launchers loaded with Thermal ammunition.
The target in both cases is the HML fitted Drake so there is no damage loss due to speed or signature radius on either weapons system.
As you can see missiles solidly out-damage Projectiles in anything but a very close-range fight and their main advantage is their good damage projection at range and damage application regardless of the firing ship's speed or traversal.
If Rise's comment comes to pass and missiles do get damage application mods it's likely they could actually become a bit over-powered again. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
264
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 22:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
Can you now explain why amarr and mimmatar missile boats get full damage selection. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3151
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 23:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
They usually have less turrets than their Caldari missile class counterparts. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1289
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 23:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:They usually have less turrets than their Caldari missile class counterparts.
This, and they are also allowed to load all four types of missiles, something that is apparently prohibited on Caldari ships. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
79
|
Posted - 2013.09.01 23:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Can you now explain why amarr and mimmatar missile boats get full damage selection.
Well, just looking at the Cerberus and the Sacrilege I'd say it's because the Sac has one less turret and the Cerb giving it overall lower damage.
The Damnation just has a 10% damage bonus where the Nighthawk has 7.5 to ROF and Damage each. So overall I would say ShahFluffers is correct, they're trading a bit of overall damage for that damage selection. |
Caleb Seremshur
Angel of War Game 0f Tears
61
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Posted - 2013.09.01 23:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Is it fair to say that the navy osprey is the closest thing we're going to get to a perfect caldari missile ship? Read my thread here for my thoughts on eve economy https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263968&find=unread --- Mining in game, from the perspective of an IRL miner. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3503687&#post3503687 ----á for FW rebalance in 2013 |
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1290
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Let's do an even better comparison of the Caldari inferiority fallacy, using T1 hulls. Comparisons are conducted on otherwise bare hulls with T2 launchers, Caldari Nova, and all V skills. Drone damage is ignored, since we are talking missile bonuses, and none of these hulls carry bonuses for their drones.
Inties/Attack Frigs:
Condor: Has a kinetic bonus, gets screwed by this. Has no direct Minnie counterpart, since it's a T1 interceptor. Does similar DPS with rockets that a Slasher does with projectiles.
Combat frigs:
Kestrel: Same exact all-missile-type damage bonus as the Breacher. Out-DPSes it with every rocket type because it has 4 launchers. Part of the Breacher's DPS comes from drones, and is ignored for this test.
Dessies:
Talwar: Out-DPSes the Corax with Nova missiles. Finally, we have a winner! Except that it only does so because the Talwar has a race-specific damage bonus to Explosive! Aw, ****. Talwar pilots might want to start BAAAWWWWing like a Caldari at this next time they need to load Kinetic.
Cruisers:
Caracal out-DPSes the Bellicose with its HAMs because it has a 5 luanchers, and shares the same 5% ROF bonus. Navy Caracal out-DPSes both Bellicose and Fleet Scythe with all missiles. Navy Osprey is the 'loser' here, doing slightly less damage than the Bellicose because it receives a 5% damage bonus to non-racial missiles. It does, however, have the hated 10% kinetic bonus, and hands the Belli its ass when using Scourge.
Battlecruisers:
The Cyclone slightly edges out the Drake here with Nova, and hence, two other missile type. With Scourge, or course, there is no comparison. Navy Drake carries no damage bonus at all, and flatly stomps the Cyclone with every flavor of HAMs, while losing out in raw DPS to the standard Drake with Scourge, and beating it in all others.
Battleships:
Raven, Scorpion Navy, and Typhoon all have the same 5% ROF bonus and the same launcher count. No difference in DPS, and can load all types. Raven Navy is slightly edged out by Typhoon Fleet due to having no direct damage bonus at all, versus a 7.5% damage bonus on the Phoon. Scorpion loses out to all of them for having no direct weapons bonuses at all, and fewer hard points.
What this basically tells us is that the Caldari Kinetic whinefest is a fallacy, and that you should all find better things to do with yourselves. On the T1 end of things, base hull to base hull, the Caldari are not overly disadvantaged by Kinetic racial bias, because the majority of their hulls do not even have it. Low slots and fitting choices will be the determining factor in many cases, not a damage bonus. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
79
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:05:00 -
[22] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Is it fair to say that the navy osprey is the closest thing we're going to get to a perfect caldari missile ship?
It's hardly perfect, yes it has your coveted mixed damage bonus but it's also out-damaged and out-ranged by the Cerberus with 2 more launcher hardpoints, a damage bonus, and a ROF bonus. There is literally no situation where the Cerberus isn't going to deal more damage than an Osprey Navy Issue no matter what ammo you're using. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1291
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 00:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Is it fair to say that the navy osprey is the closest thing we're going to get to a perfect caldari missile ship? It's hardly perfect, yes it has your coveted mixed damage bonus but it's also out-damaged and out-ranged by the Cerberus with 2 more launcher hardpoints, a damage bonus, and a ROF bonus. There is literally no situation where the Cerberus isn't going to deal more damage than an Osprey Navy Issue no matter what ammo you're using.
To say nothing of comparing a HAC to a light Navy cruiser. The biggest battlefield advantage carried by the Navy Osprey is that it is quite literally Hookbill Sr., with the ability to fit assorted disruption ewar and even cram a medium neut on. Neuted out, TD'd, and dual-webbed means hitting other cruisers for damned near full DPS with Rage HAMs, while absorbing little to no damage itself. Its speed and range bonuses allow you to actually kite other cruisers, battlecruisers, and some MWD frigates with the same missiles. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
264
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 06:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
The thing to consider is how much of a difference it makes in applied damage when you're stuck using scourge compared to losing a bit of dps to the correct damage type. Also, all of those ships are compensated by a larger done bay l, which makes a difference despite not being bonused. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
107
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Posted - 2013.09.02 06:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Let's do an even better comparison of the Caldari inferiority fallacy, using T1 hulls. Comparisons are conducted on otherwise bare hulls with T2 launchers, Caldari Nova, and all V skills. Drone damage is ignored, since we are talking missile bonuses, and none of these hulls carry bonuses for their drones.
Inties/Attack Frigs:
Condor: Has a kinetic bonus, gets screwed by this. Has no direct Minnie counterpart, since it's a T1 interceptor. Does similar DPS with rockets that a Slasher does with projectiles.
Combat frigs:
Kestrel: Same exact all-missile-type damage bonus as the Breacher. Out-DPSes it with every rocket type because it has 4 launchers. Part of the Breacher's DPS comes from drones, and is ignored for this test.
Dessies:
Talwar: Out-DPSes the Corax with Nova missiles. Finally, we have a winner! Except that it only does so because the Talwar has a race-specific damage bonus to Explosive! Aw, ****. Talwar pilots might want to start BAAAWWWWing like a Caldari at this next time they need to load Kinetic.
Cruisers:
Caracal out-DPSes the Bellicose with its HAMs because it has a 5 luanchers, and shares the same 5% ROF bonus. Navy Caracal out-DPSes both Bellicose and Fleet Scythe with all missiles. Navy Osprey is the 'loser' here, doing slightly less damage than the Bellicose because it receives a 5% damage bonus to non-racial missiles. It does, however, have the hated 10% kinetic bonus, and hands the Belli its ass when using Scourge.
Battlecruisers:
The Cyclone slightly edges out the Drake here with Nova, and hence, two other missile type. With Scourge, or course, there is no comparison. Navy Drake carries no damage bonus at all, and flatly stomps the Cyclone with every flavor of HAMs, while losing out in raw DPS to the standard Drake with Scourge, and beating it in all others.
Battleships:
Raven, Scorpion Navy, and Typhoon all have the same 5% ROF bonus and the same launcher count. No difference in DPS, and can load all types. Raven Navy is slightly edged out by Typhoon Fleet due to having no direct damage bonus at all, versus a 7.5% damage bonus on the Phoon. Scorpion loses out to all of them for having no direct weapons bonuses at all, and fewer hard points.
What this basically tells us is that the Caldari Kinetic whinefest is a fallacy, and that you should all find better things to do with yourselves. On the T1 end of things, base hull to base hull, the Caldari are not overly disadvantaged by Kinetic racial bias, because the majority of their hulls do not even have it. Low slots and fitting choices will be the determining factor in many cases, not a damage bonus. You just don't get it do you? The problem is not that all caldari missile ships should out dps every minnie and amarr missile boat but rather that artificial limiting factor which feels dumb and unnecessary just to create slightly different ships because they didn't come up with anything else. |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
83
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 07:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Johnson Oramara wrote: You just don't get it do you? The problem is not that all caldari missile ships should out dps every minnie and amarr missile boat but rather that artificial limiting factor which feels dumb and unnecessary just to create slightly different ships because they didn't come up with anything else.
Because ship differentiation is somehow bad? >.>
If you want to lose ~15% DPS over a bonus that really comes out to fairly good game design then be my guest, keep yelling.
Why this is good game design:
- Encourages decision making and meaningful tradeoffs: "Should I switch to EM and hope his hole isn't plugged or stay with my higher damage Kinetic?"
- It leads to meaningful differentiation between ships and races which makes for a more interesting game world.
- It creates another layer of ship balance for Caldari ships (they get more damage but it's partly tied to a single damage type)
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Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
99
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
DHB WildCat wrote:Also a little note about tracking..... Turret ships can play traverse games and hit for full damage with minimal traverse. Even if a ship has 0 traverse on a missile ship the missile still wont do much damage due to the ships size and speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT8VqVcLDqc
You're not hitting with missiles? Are you using Drake without web and painter? Like idiots in this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPO1KWxmxvE |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1299
|
Posted - 2013.09.02 11:36:00 -
[28] - Quote
Johnson Oramara wrote: You just don't get it do you? The problem is not that all caldari missile ships should out dps every minnie and amarr missile boat but rather that artificial limiting factor which feels dumb and unnecessary just to create slightly different ships because they didn't come up with anything else.
I get that you have nothing to be continually whining about. Every other race is in some way restricted in their damage selection by primary weapon type. Even the Minmatar, with their 'selectable' damage projectiles, can only slant their DPS so far; every ammunition type contains at least a second, if not a third, damage component that detracts from the main one.
The vast majority of Caldari missile hulls do not even suffer from the 'kinetic restriction' that is constantly brought up. Several of them, in fact, out-DPS the other races' with all four damage types, and that is quite relevant when so many Caldari pilots spend their time crying about how they are somehow forced to use kinetic. They aren't. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Grunnax Aurelius
The Horny Heron's
200
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 00:51:00 -
[29] - Quote
I don't have problems with the Kinetic Damge Bonuses, never have, never will, the only time i change ammo is to explosive to deal with T2 resists on Gallente Ships. Deal with it guys its probably not going to change. Besides i like my 20% bonus per level on my hookbill apposed to the 10% to the other types on the hooker Marauder: 1 Subsystem to Modulate the Role they Fulfil: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=271219 |
Matthias Thullmann
Dynatron Inc. The Volition Cult
6
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Posted - 2013.09.03 13:20:00 -
[30] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:are ccp scared of caldari missile power?
lol I think they are.
It's insane how much they've nefed HML, and not even in a sane way. HMLs have always been the high alpha - long range missile type like arty or beam lasers, now they've basically made them into more flexible HAMs.
CCP please stop nerfing missile damage, nerf rate of fire. |
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