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hudders
Defiant Allegiance
5
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Posted - 2013.09.02 06:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, I'm not sure if this is a topic that has been brought up before, but it's bugged me for a long time since playing this game.
Each gun type has two guns associated with it. Projectile --> Auto-cannons / Artillery Hybrid --> Blaster / Rail Lazors --> Pulse / Beam
They are categorized into small medium and large. Once you hit level 5, all you need is the specialization at 1 for T2 guns.
However, missiles (long considered far inferior to guns) have extra training for every category. If I have to use T2 Blasters or rails, say medium, all I need to do is train Medium hybrid turrets to 5 and then get specialization for both rail and blaster.
However, for medium missile launchers I have to train two skills to 5. Heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles. Then specialization in each. Thus doubling the training time. This becomes especially noticeable once you get to capital ships. A moros for example, trains large hybrid turrets to 5 and then can get capital hybrid turrets. They can then choose to use either capital blasters or rails. However, the Phoenix must train both cruise missiles and torpedoes to 5 in order to be as versatile. Giving it another 20 day or so train time on a ship already classified as "the worst dread."
Overall, I don't understand why this is done for missiles and not for guns, or vice versa why guns are grouped and missiles are not. Perhaps change the category to small missiles, medium missiles and large missiles?
Might just be ramblings, but I'd love to hear some thoughts/input. So... yeah. Bring forth the talking. |
Guttri
Grauer Orden
5
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Posted - 2013.09.02 06:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
hudders wrote: If I have to use T2 Blasters or rails, say medium, all I need to do is train Medium hybrid turrets to 5 and then get specialization for both rail and blaster.
Wrong. You also need Small Hybrid Turret at 5 and the respective specialization skills at 4. |
Comto Aldent
Circulus Exousias
12
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Posted - 2013.09.02 06:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
It kind of balances out for higher level missles, since you would need both small and medium specilization for tech II large hybrid turrets, you don't need heavy assault missles for tech II cruise launchers, the downside is training torps and cruise V for tech II respectivly |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16287
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Posted - 2013.09.02 06:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
hudders wrote:Overall, I don't understand why this is done for missiles and not for guns, or vice versa why guns are grouped and missiles are not. Because guns are not missiles, and it's not really a matter of balance.
Missiles let you go deep quickly, but are slow when it comes to skill breadth. Guns work the other way around. vOv GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
887
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Posted - 2013.09.02 06:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aww... isn't that cute? 2006 character still having problems with skills tree design. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
hudders
Defiant Allegiance
5
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Posted - 2013.09.02 06:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Aww... isn't that cute? 2006 character still having problems with skills tree design. It's not really a problem. Just a curiosity that I finally decided to quench. I don't care one way or another if the system changes. I already have all gunnery and missile skills at 5. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1353
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Posted - 2013.09.02 07:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
I can go straight to the torpedo spec skill instead of having to train both the HAM spec and the rocket spec to get there, though? |
Dariusz Betonowy
Betoniarka Inc.
3
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Posted - 2013.09.02 08:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:I can go straight to the torpedo spec skill instead of having to train both the HAM spec and the rocket spec to get there, though? Sure, you can train those not even touching any lower t2 variant. |
Aiwha
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
546
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Posted - 2013.09.02 08:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Missiles are actually in a nice place right now. Except for capital missiles. CCP, fix capital missiles. We're winning the war if it says so on CAOD! -á
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1181
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Posted - 2013.09.02 09:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
Guttri wrote:hudders wrote: If I have to use T2 Blasters or rails, say medium, all I need to do is train Medium hybrid turrets to 5 and then get specialization for both rail and blaster.
Wrong. You also need Small Hybrid Turret at 5 and the respective specialization skills at 4.
This, plus some support skills to 5
Then:
hudders wrote:However, for medium missile launchers I have to train two skills to 5. Heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles. Then specialization in each. Thus doubling the training time.
Nope, that's not even what it takes to hybrids lasers or projectiles.
Lets say you want to train specifically for a Tengu, all you need is required support skills to 5 (2) others to 4, then HM 5->spec 4 and HAM 5 -> spec 4
As said above you can't spec all other weapon systems like that, while with missiles you can cover almost all your needs with HM/HAM for pve pvp, the other weapon systems don't let you do so.
If you want large blasters you need to train first small hybrids too 5 then spec 4 med hybrids 5 then spec 4 only then train large hybrids then spec 4 and you still have to train rails specs to 4 if you want to use them.
There are a lot of threads about this with arguments con/pron etc but the only thing it matters is this: with missiles you can skip a lot of training and spec directly to suit your needs because there's no prerequisite of specialization in rockets to train lights and so on, with all other weapons you can't. In the end while being different training processes they're about equal except you only have one missile type of weapon, with turrets you have 3 (lasers/hybrids/projectiles) and having them all I can tell you train turrets in a real pain in the ass while missiles I have exactly what i need nothing more nothing less. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
358
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Posted - 2013.09.02 09:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tippia wrote:hudders wrote:Overall, I don't understand why this is done for missiles and not for guns, or vice versa why guns are grouped and missiles are not. Because guns are not missiles, and it's not really a matter of balance. Missiles let you go deep quickly, but are slow when it comes to skill breadth. Guns work the other way around. vOv I would dispute that. To go deep into missiles requires the support skills. The support skills actually take more training time than the primary skills in most cases. And to add to that, the gun support skills are worth three times as much as the missile support skills. Well, lets say double at least, as not all the gun support skills are relevant to every weapon. Meaning while you can argue that the overall SP is the same, the gun support skills support three separate weapon systems overall, while the missile support skills only support one.
I do like the missile layout, but I strongly believe their support skills are overly penalised because they only apply to one weapon system overall, not three, and that they should be made a bit cheaper as a result. |
UGWidowmaker
Fink Operations The Volition Cult
0
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Posted - 2013.09.02 09:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
To whine about skill training time... LOL LOL... have this in mind... misils can fire more than 1 damage type.. as amarr i always came up with max 2 damage types. EM and Thermal. no more,,, so just be happy u have more than that! adapt. misils are the easy to train up! as a gun user you need more than one raise to fill the entire spectra of damage!
stop whining.. and use your time training instead.. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
434
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Posted - 2013.09.02 10:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
I would dispute that. To go deep into missiles requires the support skills.
You need either trajectory analysis or sharpshooting to 5 plus spec 4 on each smaller mount a T2 large turret, factor in 6 turrets for all of the races.
Once you train torps say, they work on everything with a launcher slot.
It comes out to someting like 46 days training per large turret type (blallistic, hybrid etc) It is longer than missiles trust me I've done both. |
Othran
Route One
583
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Posted - 2013.09.02 11:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
Given the complete lack of knowledge the OP has about the skills he already has, I'd say he needs to l2p his newly bought character before making a complete arse of himself on the forums
If OP didn't buy the character then he has eve-related learning difficulties. |
embrel
BamBam Inc.
47
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Posted - 2013.09.02 12:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Aww... isn't that cute? 2006 character still having problems with skills tree design.
how cute to assume that all 2006 characters have actually played all the time. |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1871
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Posted - 2013.09.02 12:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
This is a topic that's been discussed before. In depth. Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1184
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Posted - 2013.09.02 22:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:
I would dispute that. To go deep into missiles requires the support skills.
You need either trajectory analysis or sharpshooting to 5 plus spec 4 on each smaller mount a T2 large turret, factor in 6 turrets for all of the races. Once you train torps say, they work on everything with a launcher slot. It comes out to someting like 46 days training per large turret type (blallistic, hybrid etc) It is longer than missiles trust me I've done both.
Well I don't know how to explain this differently, with over 16M SP in turrets I still don't have large energy guns+large pulse&large long range what the frack whatever name, meanwhile with only 8M SP my other character is specifically trained all support missiles skills to 5, HM/AHM specs to 4 and cruiser/torps specs to 4.
How hard it is to train missiles? - I answer you: blahblahblah nothing!! at all, it's a joke !! *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
hudders
Defiant Allegiance
5
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Posted - 2013.09.02 23:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
UGWidowmaker wrote:To whine about skill training time... LOL LOL... have this in mind... misils can fire more than 1 damage type.. as amarr i always came up with max 2 damage types. EM and Thermal. no more,,, so just be happy u have more than that! adapt. misils are the easy to train up! as a gun user you need more than one raise to fill the entire spectra of damage!
stop whining.. and use your time training instead..
I was not whining, I was asking a valid question out of curiosity. I simply wanted to know why they had such a difference in train time as it doesn't seem balanced. It was a question, like I said, I already have all gunnery and missile skills at 5, I don't actually care if they are changed or not.
Before you go making stupid comments, perhaps read the entire post and then learn to express yourself at least semi-intelligently. |
hudders
Defiant Allegiance
5
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Posted - 2013.09.02 23:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Othran wrote:Given the complete lack of knowledge the OP has about the skills he already has, I'd say he needs to l2p his newly bought character before making a complete arse of himself on the forums If OP didn't buy the character then he has eve-related learning difficulties.
A post that has zero evidence behind it and merely insults the original poster asking a valid question. I made some generalizations, yes, but I am more than aware of how skills work. This is not something I just hurr durr realized, like omg. I've noticed it since about a month into eve, which was long ago, gave it some thought and finally decided to get others input on it. Perhaps even a DEV response.
You on the other hand, are just being an ******* so you look cool on your internet spaceship game.
You're so cool, I wish I was like you. |
hudders
Defiant Allegiance
5
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Posted - 2013.09.02 23:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:This is a topic that's been discussed before. In depth.
Thank you for the helpful post. I will read up on this. |
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Felicity Love
Whore and Peace
827
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Posted - 2013.09.03 02:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
Dev Blogs are your friend. Might take a few hours, but you'll have the gospel straight from the only source that matters, "The Powers That Be".
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |
Varesk
Origin. Black Legion.
467
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Posted - 2013.09.03 17:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
these are the skills you need for t2 blasters
gunnery 5 motion prediction 5 medium blasters 5 medium blaster spec 4 small blasters 5 small blaster spec 4 large hybrid turret 5 large blaster spec 1
Now that is a bit longer of a train than what you are saying. |
Heinrich Rotwang
Deutsche Luftschlosswerke AG
9
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Posted - 2013.09.03 19:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
UGWidowmaker wrote:misils can fire more than 1 damage type..
So much for the advertising.... good luck with unbonused missiles. You will need it.
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Daenika
MMO-Mechanics.com
0
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Posted - 2013.09.03 20:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
From a completely blank character to a Torpedo Launcher II:
Quote:Missile Launcher Operation I Missile Launcher Operation II Missile Launcher Operation III Missile Launcher Operation IV Light Missiles I Light Missiles II Light Missiles III Heavy Missiles I Heavy Missiles II Heavy Missiles III Torpedoes I Torpedoes II Torpedoes III Torpedoes IV Torpedoes V Torpedo Specialization I
Total time: 25 days, 17 hours, 21 minutes, 50 seconds Est. Cost: 9,540,000
From the same blank character to a Neutron Blaster Cannon II:
Quote:Gunnery III Gunnery IV Gunnery V Small Hybrid Turret I Small Hybrid Turret II Small Hybrid Turret III Medium Hybrid Turret I Medium Hybrid Turret II Medium Hybrid Turret III Large Hybrid Turret I Large Hybrid Turret II Large Hybrid Turret III Large Hybrid Turret IV Motion Prediction I Motion Prediction II Motion Prediction III Motion Prediction IV Motion Prediction V Small Hybrid Turret IV Small Hybrid Turret V Small Blaster Specialization I Small Blaster Specialization II Small Blaster Specialization III Small Blaster Specialization IV Medium Hybrid Turret IV Medium Hybrid Turret V Medium Blaster Specialization I Medium Blaster Specialization II Medium Blaster Specialization III Medium Blaster Specialization IV Large Hybrid Turret V Large Blaster Specialization I
Total time: 79 days, 12 hours, 7 minutes, 30 seconds Est. Cost: 15,180,000
I'm sorry, what were you complaining again?
For reference, fitting both T2 Large turret types takes 60 days for the missiles (Torpedoes and Cruise Missiles) and 100 days for the hybrids (Blasters and Rails).
Also, for reference, medium turrets:
HAMs: 19d 5h Blasters: 29d 2h
HAMs + HMLs: 37d 0h Blasters + Rails: 34d 9h
And for small turrets:
Rockets: 5d 23h Blasters: 6d 7h
Rockets + LMLs: 17d 23h Blasters + Rails: 6d 7h
Seems pretty even to me. Missiles are rather substantially easier to train into, particularly for larger turrets, but the T2 launchers then don't assume (by not requiring to fit) many of the support skills like the T2 turrets do. For small turrets, sure, it takes more time to get both, but for mediums, it's almost equal, and substantially quicker to get just one, and for large ones, it takes less time to get both launchers to T2 than it takes to get even one turret to T2. |
Aivo Dresden
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
14
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Posted - 2013.09.03 21:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
It should also be noted (my apologies if it already has) that IF you compare t2 torpedos with t2 blasters, that player with the Torpedos can actually ONLY fit the torpedos. If he wants to later fit HM or HAM or Rockets or whatever, he needs to start training again. While the person who's trained blasters, is sorted already, for all ship types and classes. After training t2 blasters, you can fit blasters on any ship any size. The torps are much more limited. I've trained both and ultimately it is pretty much the same. The only difference is that it is indeed a little faster to get 1 specific size of launcher trained; but in the long run if you want to fit different types of launchers on different sizes of ships, it's pretty much the same. |
Digits Kho
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Get Off My Lawn
1
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Posted - 2013.09.03 22:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
Daenika wrote:From a completely blank character to a Torpedo Launcher II: Quote:Missile Launcher Operation I Missile Launcher Operation II Missile Launcher Operation III Missile Launcher Operation IV Light Missiles I Light Missiles II Light Missiles III Heavy Missiles I Heavy Missiles II Heavy Missiles III Torpedoes I Torpedoes II Torpedoes III Torpedoes IV Torpedoes V Torpedo Specialization I
Total time: 25 days, 17 hours, 21 minutes, 50 seconds Est. Cost: 9,540,000 From the same blank character to a Neutron Blaster Cannon II: Quote:Gunnery III Gunnery IV Gunnery V Small Hybrid Turret I Small Hybrid Turret II Small Hybrid Turret III Medium Hybrid Turret I Medium Hybrid Turret II Medium Hybrid Turret III Large Hybrid Turret I Large Hybrid Turret II Large Hybrid Turret III Large Hybrid Turret IV Motion Prediction I Motion Prediction II Motion Prediction III Motion Prediction IV Motion Prediction V Small Hybrid Turret IV Small Hybrid Turret V Small Blaster Specialization I Small Blaster Specialization II Small Blaster Specialization III Small Blaster Specialization IV Medium Hybrid Turret IV Medium Hybrid Turret V Medium Blaster Specialization I Medium Blaster Specialization II Medium Blaster Specialization III Medium Blaster Specialization IV Large Hybrid Turret V Large Blaster Specialization I
Total time: 79 days, 12 hours, 7 minutes, 30 seconds Est. Cost: 15,180,000 I'm sorry, what were you complaining again? For reference, fitting both T2 Large turret types takes 60 days for the missiles (Torpedoes and Cruise Missiles) and 100 days for the hybrids (Blasters and Rails). Also, for reference, medium turrets: HAMs: 19d 5hBlasters: 29d 2hHAMs + HMLs: 37d 0hBlasters + Rails: 34d 9hAnd for small turrets: Rockets: 5d 23hBlasters: 6d 7hRockets + LMLs: 17d 23hBlasters + Rails: 6d 7hSeems pretty even to me. Missiles are rather substantially easier to train into, particularly for larger turrets, but the T2 launchers then don't assume (by not requiring to fit) many of the support skills like the T2 turrets do. For small turrets, sure, it takes more time to get both, but for mediums, it's almost equal, and substantially quicker to get just one, and for large ones, it takes less time to get both launchers to T2 than it takes to get even one turret to T2.
So do projectiles and hybrids have difirent sp costs? Cuz i have both AC and Artis T2 Large turrets to lvl 2 and 3 while having only a lil over 12 milion sp on my character in all skills |
Daenika
MMO-Mechanics.com
2
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Posted - 2013.09.03 23:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
Quote:So do projectiles and hybrids have difirent sp costs? Cuz i have both AC and Artis T2 Large turrets to lvl 2 and 3 while having only a lil over 12 milion sp on my character in all skills
I checked, the requirements are the same. Note that the Est. Cost line is in isk, it's not the number of SP (which I didn't include).
On a side note, here's the times for training times for training all 6 weapon types and sizes to T2:
Missiles: 112d 18h Hybrids: 99d 18h
Not much difference, to be honest, though it's still around 12%.
If you want to, in addition, train up all specializations to V and all (direct) supporting skills to V, that's where the difference really starts to show, because the turrets include a lot of their supporting skills in their T2 training reqs. Weapon Upgrades and Adv. Weapon Upgrades were exluded, since those are fitting related and apply to both:
Missiles: 420d 17h Hybrids: 349d 14h |
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