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Celthon Drakken
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2013.09.02 21:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Suggestions for skills and ship for a Fleet Commander for small Mining Fleet (less than five pilots/ships)?
Would the FC need to have something other than a Mining Ship, to provide better support -- or would the bonuses from skills such as Siege Warfare & Armored Warfare apply regardless of the ship the FC uses?
The Mining Foreman/Director skills increase yield of the Mining, but would it not be useful to have someone in "bodyguard" status to help if pirates attack? If so, what sort of ship & skill pkg. would be recommended? If it is a suicide type attack, would the "bodyguard" ship/pilot effectively be useless because it would be over before he/she could attack/defend?
Thank you. |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
593
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Posted - 2013.09.02 22:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Orca. |
Jane Schereau
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
30
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Posted - 2013.09.02 22:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
If your goal is to give out mining bonuses, Orca is your ship of choice. That does not mean having the warfare skills to 5 is a bad idea. If you want an escort, get someone else to do it. If you can't and need to do that yourself, you can put mining ganglinks (or any gang link for that matter) in any Battlecruiser.
Escorts are more of a deterrent than actually useful. You need a lot of dps to take out a catalyst/thrasher in less of the time it takes them to take down a barge. It is possible however, just do the math. A sebo, traking-enhanced, sniper amarr BS with a target painter should do the job quite nicely. |
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
86
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Posted - 2013.09.02 22:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
The best "bodyguard" against suicide ganks is actually a logistic and/or ECM ship. As Jane said, you probably wont be able to kill the attackers quickly enough to make a difference, but if you can repair / reduce the damage just long enough for CONCORD to show up, you win.
(This only applies to high-sec of course.) |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3154
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Posted - 2013.09.02 23:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Celthon Drakken wrote:Would the FC need to have something other than a Mining Ship, to provide better support -- or would the bonuses from skills such as Siege Warfare & Armored Warfare apply regardless of the ship the FC uses? To provide basic bonuses (to armor, shields, speed, agility, etc) a person needs to be in the squad commander position. It doesn't need to be the FC, just whoever has the best skills.
Certain ships however will boost specific bonuses significantly. As mentioned above, the Orca is the mining fleet ship of choice as it can provide not only hauler support, but also Mining and/or Warfare Link bonuses too. People in ships like this should be the Squad Commander position.
Celthon Drakken wrote:The Mining Foreman/Director skills increase yield of the Mining, but would it not be useful to have someone in "bodyguard" status to help if pirates attack? If so, what sort of ship & skill pkg. would be recommended? If it is a suicide type attack, would the "bodyguard" ship/pilot effectively be useless because it would be over before he/she could attack/defend? I'm going to assume you are mining in high-sec.
You don't need a bodyguard in the traditional sense (big and lots of guns). Frankly, they won't be fast enough. What you need is something like a destroyer or cruiser with the ability to lock extremely fast and deal very high volley damage to remove [at least one of] the ganker from field as soon as they go "blinky" (if they are not already). Artillery-fit Thrashers and Ruptures with lots of Sensor Boosters are good for this.
Alternatively, you can get someone with a remote repair module (like a shield transporter) to effectively negate some of the DPS dealt to the barges during a suicide attack... putting the odds of survival more in the miner's favor.
However, the best way to keep your fleet secure from a suicide gank is to tank up your ships (by fitting lots of raw HP and resistances, not shield boosters***). Barges like the Procurer excel at doing this. And Armor/Siege Warfare links will further enhance your defenses (which the Orca helps with). The trade off is that you won't mine as much/fast.
*** suicide ganks operate on the tactic of dealing as much damage in as small a time frame as possible. It's rare for a shield booster or armor repper to complete it's cycle and negate enough incoming damage to make any difference. Thus, fit for maximum HP. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Celthon Drakken
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2013.09.03 07:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Thank you all for the informative and very helpful replies. |
Celthon Drakken
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2013.09.03 08:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Another question : If the Mining Fleet is made of pilots who are not all in the same Corporation, if a Pirate attacks one, will the current flagging system/Crimewatch prevent anyone else in fleet engaging in actions against the Pirate?
Its a small group, all in NPC Corporations, but some not in same Corporation...we don't see benefit of creating new small corporation, as it will in our opinion be WarDecced/Ransomed, etc. sooner or later. Other than having a new Corporation name, symbol, etc. is there any benefit for a very small group of new pilots who fly together sometimes to create their own corporation?
Thank you. |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
598
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Posted - 2013.09.03 08:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
If someone attacks illegally in highsec, they go criminal (red flashy) and can be shot by anyone at all. |
Celthon Drakken
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2013.09.03 09:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Thank you. |
Cannibal Kane
My Little Ponies of the Apocalypse Break-A-Wish Foundation
2319
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Posted - 2013.09.03 09:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thomas Builder wrote:The best "bodyguard" against suicide ganks is actually a logistic and/or ECM ship. As Jane said, you probably wont be able to kill the attackers quickly enough to make a difference, but if you can repair / reduce the damage just long enough for CONCORD to show up, you win.
(This only applies to high-sec of course.)
ECM and REPS dont protect against ALPHA. Why do people keep saying that it is. I feel like rolling up a newspaper and hitting you on the nose...
BUFFER is the only real defense against ALPHA. And even then the more ALPHA comes in the harder it is to defend around that.
Your only real hope is to make sure your BUFFER is to much effort for them to break through. "I saw him fight by the monument in Jita. -áHe flowed in his Machariel like a Shinto spirit, 800MM shells sprouting in his passing. -áHis hair flowed in the corona of his target's warp core breach. -áIt was truly majestic. -áAnd while everyone stared in awe I stole the loot and ran off.-áBecause I am like that." --áNEONOVUS |
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c4binfever
Morte Aut Gloria The Void Mandate
186
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Posted - 2013.09.03 09:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote: ECM and REPS dont protect against ALPHA. Why do people keep saying that it is. I feel like rolling up a newspaper and hitting you on the nose...
BUFFER is the only real defense against ALPHA. And even then the more ALPHA comes in the harder it is to defend around that.
Your only real hope is to make sure your BUFFER is to much effort for them to break through.
Man has a point, if people decide to suddenly alpha you, your ECM / BUFFER isnt going to have time to cycle effectively. And that's assuming you have lightning reactions to their fire. <--dotbot |
Celthon Drakken
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2013.09.03 10:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
I'm not familiar yet with a lot of the terminology and acronyms used in this game...I'm learning little by little, but still long way to go. Anyway: what is the term ALPHA referring to?
Am I correct thinking the BUFFER refers to shields and rigs/modules/bonuses that increase shield HP?
Thank you.
EDIT: NVM, I found this page on the Eve Wiki regarding Alpha damage, etc. -- https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Alpha_damage
I should have searched first, before asking questions...
Left the question as is, and the link to the wiki page regarding Alpha damage, in case someone else may have had same question. |
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
87
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Posted - 2013.09.03 14:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:ECM and REPS dont protect against ALPHA. True, but the current FOTM miner gank ship is a catalyst, which is much more about dps than alpha damage. And this gives you some time to react. Not much time, but enough to activate a shield transporter if you already have the victim targeted.
But yes, it wont help against a Thrasher alpha-gank squad. |
Ned Taggart
EVE University Ivy League
39
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Posted - 2013.09.03 14:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
It really seems like it is a lot harder to protect a mining fleet in High sec than it would be to protect it in Low or Null sec. |
Sin Pew
Dakini Rising
236
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Posted - 2013.09.03 15:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ned Taggart wrote:It really seems like it is a lot harder to protect a mining fleet in High sec than it would be to protect it in Low or Null sec. It's not, it's just a PEBCAK. Go tell a miner to monitor local and spam dscan in highsec .
Thomas Builder wrote:True, but the current FOTM miner gank ship is a catalyst, which is much more about dps than alpha damage. And this gives you some time to react. Not much time, but enough to activate a shield transporter if you already have the victim targeted. When the miners themselves can't be arsed paying attention while mining, you really believe one of their logi-bro/alt will?
No point looking for silly tactics, the only counter to ganking is attention and if you don't want to pay attention, either fit a massive buffer or lose the boat.
BTW gankalyst are not FOTM, they're the best tool for the job since 2011 at least . "haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator." |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
86
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Posted - 2013.09.03 15:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ned Taggart wrote:It really seems like it is a lot harder to protect a mining fleet in High sec than it would be to protect it in Low or Null sec.
There is alot of truth in this. While not many folk mine in low, in null its very safe to mine especially in sov null - in the large alliances you're surrounded by blues and if a neut comes by he is announced in your intel channel and visible in local allowing everybody to dock up if they paying even a modicum of attention.
But mining in high sec can be almost just as safe. There are two basic secrets to mining in high sec safely - 1) tank your barge and 2) mine in a system that is a little out of the way; off the beaten path as it were. If you do these two things you will avoid the vast majority of casual ganks. |
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
87
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Posted - 2013.09.03 15:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ned Taggart wrote:It really seems like it is a lot harder to protect a mining fleet in High sec than it would be to protect it in Low or Null sec. Haha. Well, in Low, when six players jump into the system, you know there's trouble and you just warp to a safespot. But in high-sec, where many systems have always more than 40 players in them, it's much harder to spot a gank squad before they land on grid especially if they are a bit sneaky and have neutral sec status. But then, as Sin said, many high-sec miners don't pay any attention and won't even notice a full squad of reds arriving in the system all at once - so gankers don't even have to be sneaky.
Also, people exaggerate the problem. You usually have no problem to earn the price of your barge and then some before it gets blown up. But some people consider any loss a horrible experience. |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2098
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 16:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:ECM and REPS dont protect against ALPHA. Why do people keep saying that it is. I feel like rolling up a newspaper and hitting you on the nose...
BUFFER is the only real defense against ALPHA. And even then the more ALPHA comes in the harder it is to defend around that.
Your only real hope is to make sure your BUFFER is to much effort for them to break through.
People don't gank miners with alpha anymore, and why would do because much cheaper ships can apply more damage. The tactics mentioned here are effective if used well (but often aren't), but it's important not to be over confident and especially not to gloat, because that will absolutely make people perform a cost-negative gank on you. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Ned Taggart
EVE University Ivy League
39
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Posted - 2013.09.03 16:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Thomas Builder wrote:Also, people exaggerate the problem. You usually have no problem to earn the price of your barge and then some before it gets blown up. But some people consider any loss a horrible experience.
I find that to be true, that the problem is highly exaggerated. Also, the more tears that are shed, the more likely you are to remain a target.
I think if you are prepared and in a well thought out fleet with Logi and a few DD's, gankers will look elsewhere. All you have to do is warp to a safe if you see gank-class ships appear on dscan. |
Celthon Drakken
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.03 17:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ned Taggart wrote:... in a well thought out fleet with Logi and a few DD's, gankers will look elsewhere. All you have to do is warp to a safe if you see gank-class ships appear on dscan.
What does "DD" refer to?^
Thank you. |
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MadMuppet
AirHogs Zulu People
897
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Posted - 2013.09.03 18:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Celthon Drakken wrote:Ned Taggart wrote:... in a well thought out fleet with Logi and a few DD's, gankers will look elsewhere. All you have to do is warp to a safe if you see gank-class ships appear on dscan. What does "DD" refer to?^ Thank you.
DD- Destroyers BS- Battleship BC Battlecruiser MT- Empty
I mine in EVE because I'm too drunk to fish in WoW.-á |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2098
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 08:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
I assume he means DD to equate to DareDevil - which makes sense as their web bonus lets them get barges and Orcas into warp faster. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Celthon Drakken
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
Thank you. |
Tialano Utrigas
Critical Mass Inc. Nexus Fleet
42
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Posted - 2013.09.06 11:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:I assume he means DD to equate to DareDevil - which makes sense as their web bonus lets them get barges and Orcas into warp faster.
This, although if you're not in the same corporation, then CONCORD will swing past you after the catalysts. |
Praxis Ginimic
Dark Knight Legion The Hydra Confederacy
492
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 13:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
Just buy a New Order mining permit. |
Marc Callan
Interstellar Steel Templis Dragonaors
283
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Posted - 2013.09.06 15:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
1) The New Order aren't the only gankers out there. And they won't protect you from anyone else. 2) As a matter of fact, there's no reason to believe that this "permit" will protect you from the New Order, either. 3) New Citizen Q&A is off limits to solicitation of protection schemes/extortion rackets, isn't it? "Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred..." - Niccolo Machiavelli-á |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
2076
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 19:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
I refer to my support character as my shadow, as he follows me around (nearly) everywhere I go.
His skills are to the point where I often don't login and only use him to do stuff, like missions using a drone ship (he has no gunnery nor missile skills). I even put him into a Dominix to PvP when necessary.
There have been a few basic common ideas that guided his training progression: * Hauling (this lead to Trade). * Fleet boosting. * Drones (protect miners from NPC, do missions, and PvP). * Exploration (salvaging, codebreaking, archeology). * Jump drives. * Logistics.
One can go quite far with just the above, as the skills are related in one way or another: * Noctis * Orca. * Freighter. * Dominix (and other drone ships).. * Gila (level 1, 2, and 3 missions - started with a Vexor Navy Issue). * Rattlesnake (level 3 and 4 missions). * Command Ships. * Recons (especially the Amarr Pilgrim and Curse which can be drone ships). * Rorqual (leads to manufacturing and research). * Jump Freighter. * Carriers. * Black Ops. * Logistics ships (Gila lead to Basilisk and Oneiros).
So one doesn't have to be "just" an Orca pilot. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
425
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Posted - 2013.09.06 19:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
Posting with the intend to lure new players into parting with their hard earned Isk, is at least frowned upon. Please refrain from doing so. ISD Ezwal Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
421
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Posted - 2013.09.06 23:04:00 -
[29] - Quote
HI, I'm one of those mythical highsec gankers! I love blowing up mining ships, it's kinda my thing. Here's some tips to prevent YOU from being the next flaming wreck on the overview.
Situational awareness. What this means is, know who is in local, who is near your ships, and what they are doing. That guy snuggling up next to your barge in a procurer...he ain't there for mining. That's a warp-in scout. To go along with that, feel free to fit a few of your barges with ship scanners. Remember that hinky dude in the Procurer cuddling up to folks? Lock him up and scan him. You see things like, say, passive targeters, afterburners/MWDs, and ship/cargo scanners....he's likely not there to mine.
Be ready to warp out at a moments notice. You see flashy reds in local, it's time to leave and get safe. Not "after the cycle finishes", not "my tank will hold"...the best way to avoid a gank, is to not be there when gankers appear.
Tying back to that, be at the keyboard. Be able to see the EVE screen. Tabbed out watching Hulu is just an invitation to get ganked. Don't be that person.
Now, for things that won't help you:
A defence fleet. It really does sound nice, but us gankers, we've been at this for awhile. If we are on-grid with the target, the PVP is over, it's just a matter of hitting F1. Sure, there's some might maybes if you have a really on-the-ball ECM pilot, but even then, if we know there's defence on the field, we'll just bring more gankers, or go specifically target your bodyguards.
Mining in a "dead end" area: It's one of the first spots we look. Everyone has had that idea. When we get ready to go gank, first we check the high pop areas in our AO, then go look in those little corners where folks think they are safe.
Prespawning CONCORD: Just because CONCORD is in belt with you, doesn't mean you're safe to AFK. Gankers know how to move the CONCORD spawn around.
Reps of any kind, be them remote, drone, or self: Gankers will scan your ship before attacking. We figure all that into the equation before coming after you. As mentioned above, it's trivial to out-DPS an active tank. Also, we laugh at you for mounting civilian shield boosters.
I hope this helps your rock munching self with future rock munching fleets. For the ultimate "Avoiding Gank" tip......go ganking. Once you learn how it's done, it becomes super-easy to avoid getting killed. There's a few groups willing to take in a fresh face and teach them everything there is to know, so, roll up that alt and get to shooting! Your miner all will thank you. Don't worry miners, I'm here to help!
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Halo Crendraven
Hominus Gallente Rogue Elements.
0
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Posted - 2013.09.06 23:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:HI, I'm one of those mythical highsec gankers! I love blowing up mining ships, it's kinda my thing. Here's some tips to prevent YOU from being the next flaming wreck on the overview.
Is it actually profitable for you to do? |
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