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Ukucia
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Posted - 2006.01.13 01:50:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Vendrin
Originally by: Ukucia
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Why does everyone think the Gallente economy is larger than the Caldari economy? We know the Gallente population is larger, but larger population does not mean a larger economy by default. In reality we really don't have anything to work with to figure out how their economies compare.
Scattered throughout the game and the PF are indications that the Caldari state is much less populated than all the other empires, so much so that they're resorting to growing more Caldari in tubes. If their population is that much smaller than the Gallente, then their economy must be smaller. Only other option would be a massive difference in efficiency, but nothing in the prime fiction or game indicates that the Gallente are significantly inefficient, or that the Caldari are supernaturally efficient.
Democracy breeds inefficency. The Caldari are far more efficient because their society is based of wealth and the more efficient you are the more wealth you make.
The problem is it's only physically possible for a worker to reach a certain level of efficiency. If the Caldari have such a small population that they're growing more in tubes, then their workers would have to be orders of magnitude more efficient than the Gallente. There's nothing in the fiction or game that points to this. They probably are more efficient than the Gallente, but not enough to overcome their lower population.
Now, the Amarr are pictured as woefully inefficient, and it's probable that the Caldari are orders of magnitude more efficent than them.
As for your main thesis that democracies are more efficient than autocratic societies, that doesn't really pan out in the real world. The democratic societies on our planet are more economically efficient.
Also, it turns out that workers that are 'well cared for' are much more efficient than ones that have to take care of themselves. There's been lots of companies that have started treating its workers better or worse (after something like a merger or a re-org). The companies that treat their workers better end up vastly more efficient, and thus are much more profitable in the long-term.
Anyway, a longwinded way of saying that a "liberal" society can still be very efficient.
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Ukucia
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Posted - 2006.01.13 01:56:00 -
[182]
Originally by: hundurinn Edited by: hundurinn on 11/01/2006 19:22:50 What ships got WHOOOOPED in the last round of the tournament? I think it was a megathron, deimos and ishkur. If they lost in the final round the pilots must have been good to get that far. I asume that they'd lose against Caldari ANY DAY. We will kick your ass.
Duels don't decide wars...at least in this universe. Wars are won or lost in the factory.
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Kisaku
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Posted - 2006.01.13 02:04:00 -
[183]
As someone has said, the Joves may very well step in and stop a war before it fully breaks out. A Eve Chronicle that may very well support it is the Armageddon Project. Which talks about rumors that the Jovians have designed a doomsday device.
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Failin Zhar
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Posted - 2006.01.13 02:04:00 -
[184]
Edited by: Failin Zhar on 13/01/2006 02:04:25 What decides who wins? It's the economy silly =)
*edit* Ukucia put it nicely, I support what she wrote. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
Failin Zhar
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Posted - 2006.01.13 02:07:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Kisaku As someone has said, the Joves may very well step in and stop a war before it fully breaks out. A Eve Chronicle that may very well support it is the Armageddon Project. Which talks about rumors that the Jovians have designed a doomsday device.
I hope CCP won't make the mistake of having a war between the empires, there's is no way that can be simulated well. Lore wise the caldari are very few, but in the game you hit a caldari no matter what direction you spit in. The only war I think is feasable is a war where the empires fight united against some new/outer threat. The jove doomsday weapon perhaps? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
Tairos Aurelius
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Posted - 2006.01.13 02:17:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Tairos Aurelius on 13/01/2006 02:23:49 The Gallante may have numbers and a massive industrial capacity, but despite (Earth's) history that doesn't neccessarily mean they'd win. I think it would be a stalemate, as the Caldari don't have the forces to take and hold such a massive empire, but because their military is such high quality and have less area to defend, the Gallante would have an extremely hard time *****ing them. This situation is somewhat similar to WWII (the Gallante would be America while the Caldari are Germany), but the difference is that we know that the Gallante citizens would be undermining their government at every turn, and we don't know exactly what the population and industrial gap is. The Amarr are more than powerful enough to take the Minmatar, though occupation is another issue. What's important is that they'll occupy a fair chunk of the Gallante fleet.
EDIT- Went back and read, and realized this has been said before. Oh well.
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Ukucia
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Posted - 2006.01.13 03:03:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Ukucia on 13/01/2006 03:04:22
Originally by: Tairos Aurelius but the difference is that we know that the Gallante citizens would be undermining their government at every turn
And we know this how?
Quote: The Amarr are more than powerful enough to take the Minmatar
Ya know, I've seen this assumption over and over again. One would think if the Amarr could so overpower the Matar, that they'd have been able to crush the rebellion quite easily and there'd be no Minmatar Empire.
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Calderio
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Posted - 2006.01.13 03:31:00 -
[188]
The Caldari have a very strong chance of winning, esp if pod pilots are involved in the war.
the only reason why the minmatar were able to gain a foot hold in there rebellion is because the amarrian fleet was busy fighting the jove. I seem to recall a minmatar planet that was destroyed almost entirally as a consiquence of the rebellion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RIP Kevin Wessel, Age 20, Departed April 19 2005, Baghdad |
Tairos Aurelius
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Posted - 2006.01.13 03:40:00 -
[189]
Because we've seen that they love protesting, it's even one of the ancestory options. The Gallante are the only faction that'll put up with that, and that's not healthy during a war. And a lack of motivation, of course, produces inferior soldiers.
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Vinoth
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Posted - 2006.01.13 05:57:00 -
[190]
Caldari would definetly win because they cause more dps and are built war machines. |
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Olivin
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Posted - 2006.01.13 08:20:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Olivin on 13/01/2006 08:22:27 Caldari and Amarr will loose against Gallente and Minmatar for the same reasons Axis lost to Allies in WW2. Superior technology and numbers are of course important, but in the end it's all about economy, cash and ideology.
Caldari and Amarr ideology sucks big time. Caldari is a mixture of corporate slavery and national socialism, with huge ego. It's so obvious why they choose missiles as their primary weapon system. LOL @ Caladri's flying peepee extended.
Amarr is diehard-old-ways-imperior-ass-kissers with thick ugly ships and brainwashed heads. My god, they still support slavery. LOL @ Amarr's high-tech build by slaves.
Gallente and Minmatar are great. It's all about freedom and money. They will probably loose first battles in the war, because Amarr-Caldari will attack without warning ( what else would you expect from slave traders and war fanatics), but in the end Gallente will transform war to the isk press and pay for the Minmatar war effort and their fanatical extermination of their historical oppressors.
Olivin
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Alex Christensen
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Posted - 2006.01.13 14:02:00 -
[192]
I really love this thread.. The Minmatar and Gallente alliance comes with senseable arguments proclaiming that we will win the upcoming war, while the oppisite side's only arguments are; We are choosen by god and we have the most/best battleships and our ships does most dps.. ..
As I said before both Amarr and Caldari are weak.. Not because of their fleet's but because their societies are unstabile and could soon find themselves in a civil war because of: The Amarrian Households and the Caldari 3 blok supercorps quest for power. So while your fleets are out and kicking ass your homeworlds might be destroyed by your own selfish ambitions.. And when your fleets runs out of rienforcements and the Gallentean economy is prepeared for war then your are doomed..
And one strategy we might use is to let the Caldari fleet deep in to Gallente Space and then close of the supply routes.. and then death will come swift to the entire fleet and Caldari will be forced to sign a peace treaty or risk a total war..
And by the way.. I really don't think that the Amarr Empire will be very active in this war.. They won't help the Caldari as much as people are thinking because of thier weak borders and the risk of a 2nd rebellion wich might be aided by the Federation and the Republic.
As for the Jove... No body know's their plans.. And if I was so unlucky to be a Caldari then I wouldn't be so confident in their support.. Caldari might be the first to taste the Superweapon (project: Armageddon)
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Admiral Pwnflakes
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Posted - 2006.01.13 14:41:00 -
[193]
Edited by: Admiral Pwnflakes on 13/01/2006 14:42:26
Originally by: Alex Christensen I really love this thread.. The Minmatar and Gallente alliance comes with senseable arguments proclaiming that we will win the upcoming war, while the oppisite side's only arguments are; We are choosen by god and we have the most/best battleships and our ships does most dps.. ..
As I said before both Amarr and Caldari are weak.. Not because of their fleet's but because their societies are unstabile and could soon find themselves in a civil war because of: The Amarrian Households and the Caldari 3 blok supercorps quest for power. So while your fleets are out and kicking ass your homeworlds might be destroyed by your own selfish ambitions.. And when your fleets runs out of rienforcements and the Gallentean economy is prepeared for war then your are doomed..
And one strategy we might use is to let the Caldari fleet deep in to Gallente Space and then close of the supply routes.. and then death will come swift to the entire fleet and Caldari will be forced to sign a peace treaty or risk a total war..
And by the way.. I really don't think that the Amarr Empire will be very active in this war.. They won't help the Caldari as much as people are thinking because of thier weak borders and the risk of a 2nd rebellion wich might be aided by the Federation and the Republic.
As for the Jove... No body know's their plans.. And if I was so unlucky to be a Caldari then I wouldn't be so confident in their support.. Caldari might be the first to taste the Superweapon (project: Armageddon)
Heretic!!! Your words burn my ears, you shall taste Caldari steel!
Muhahahahaha.
You sure you're not Caldari btw? Its just you seem to have the arrogant attitude of one of us. Come brother, join the real winners.
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Exioce
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Posted - 2006.01.13 14:46:00 -
[194]
Gallente win a cultural victory a la Civilization 4. now that everyone has stealth bombers with nukes, it's unlikely they'll go to war directly.
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Tairos Aurelius
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Posted - 2006.01.13 15:18:00 -
[195]
Your ideology does not entitle you to win. And I think Gallante economic strength is being overestimated.
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Kelador Stormwolf
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Posted - 2006.01.13 15:56:00 -
[196]
Edited by: Kelador Stormwolf on 13/01/2006 15:56:22 Edited by: Kelador Stormwolf on 13/01/2006 15:55:53
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari From what I remember, the two biggest heroes of the tournament were the Caldari Navy Raven and the Eagle.
Now sit back and watch the nerf bat swing in their direction ;)
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." |
Nikolai Nuvolari
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Posted - 2006.01.13 16:05:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Nikolai Nuvolari on 13/01/2006 16:05:50
Originally by: Tairos Aurelius The Gallante may have [...] a massive industrial capacity
The Gallentean economy is p0rn, prostitution, egonics, Quafe, clothing. Their military will be entertained, well dressed, thoroughly sexually satisfied, and never thirsty. However, will they be able to win the war based on that? Hmmm... -------------------------------------[04:04:04] Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk
[04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw
[07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108! |
Olivin
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Posted - 2006.01.13 17:38:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Tairos Aurelius Your ideology does not entitle you to win.
Sure it does. It worked before, it will work again. You simply won't able to resist cold fuzzy drinks and pop-corn served with movies telling an epic story about Caldari heroic war effort and Ammar utter coolnes.
Originally by: Tairos Aurelius And I think Gallante economic strength is being overestimated.
I wonder why at least half of Eve population are Caldari. Perhaps answer hidden in Kestrel and Raven wimpmobiles, eh?
Olivin
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Olivin
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Posted - 2006.01.13 17:44:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Olivin on 13/01/2006 17:44:31
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari The Gallentean economy is p0rn, prostitution, egonics, Quafe, clothing. Their military will be entertained, well dressed, thoroughly sexually satisfied, and never thirsty. However, will they be able to win the war based on that? Hmmm...
Are you saying that Caladari military hungry, dirty and dressed badly and Amarr sad and sexually dissatisfied? Damn! I can't believe it will be a war with a banch of horny and miserable maniacs!
Olivin
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Alex Christensen
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Posted - 2006.01.13 17:48:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Admiral Pwnflakes Edited by: Admiral Pwnflakes on 13/01/2006 14:42:26
Heretic!!! Your words burn my ears, you shall taste Caldari steel!
Muhahahahaha.
You sure you're not Caldari btw? Its just you seem to have the arrogant attitude of one of us. Come brother, join the real winners.
You prove my point
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Kane Ululani
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Posted - 2006.01.13 17:50:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Olivin
...a banch of horny and miserable maniacs.
Online gaming in a nutshell. :D
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Magnus Freeman
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Posted - 2006.01.13 19:55:00 -
[202]
I believe that an eventual war would be decided by the Player Alliances, depending on which empire they would back.
After all, a few alliances sit on almost as much space (if not more) than some of the empires.
Their contributions to their chosen empires would most likely be what would tip the favor of any war (depending on if the Joves decides to step in and show us what *real* firepower is all about)
Joves 4TW! Warning! Schizophrenic at Work |
Doomed Predator
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Posted - 2006.01.13 20:03:00 -
[203]
Caldari are not stupid.Why would they attack if they know they would lose in the logn run?Who knows what they might have hidden in some remote system.The gallente found out they had a whole bunch of systems with military bases which they hid from the gallente. And as for gallente having a larger navy,well what does a ****load of outdated weapons do agains far more advanced weapons(imagine 500 000 medival soldiers vs. 500 tanks or bombers).
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Alex Christensen
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Posted - 2006.01.13 20:19:00 -
[204]
Edited by: Alex Christensen on 13/01/2006 20:23:54
Originally by: Doomed Predator (imagine 500 000 medival soldiers vs. 500 tanks or bombers).
A bid over the top I think
A sensable bit would be 500 000 drones vs. 500 ravens.. Not hard to guess the outcome of this.. Owned
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Nikolai Nuvolari
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Posted - 2006.01.13 20:41:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Olivin
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari The Gallentean economy is p0rn, prostitution, egonics, Quafe, clothing. Their military will be entertained, well dressed, thoroughly sexually satisfied, and never thirsty. However, will they be able to win the war based on that? Hmmm...
Are you saying that Caladari military hungry, dirty and dressed badly and Amarr sad and sexually dissatisfied? Damn! I can't believe it will be a war with a banch of horny and miserable maniacs! No, we're just unfashionably dressed, thirsty, and we'll be taking out our sexual frustration and boredom on you guys by killing you more.
-------------------------------------[04:04:04] Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk
[04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw
[07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108! |
Sadayiel
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Posted - 2006.01.13 20:42:00 -
[206]
Edited by: Sadayiel on 13/01/2006 20:45:14
Quote: Alex Christensen Hmm.. let's see now, how did the last war go?? Caldari didn't atchive anything but losing their home planet.. They will get some quick victories - unless the Federation starts the war.. But since their Navy is so small it won't be able to fight efficiently against the far greater federation navy. It will all come down to the commanders and leaders.. Quote:
Im sorry Alex but you are wrong, Caldari got the winning hand at the last war. They lost caldari prime, just cause gallente started the war with his WHOLE fleet doing an orbital attack over the planet, but caldari just strike back sletted up and made a major distraction hitting the gallente main planet,(read chimera details)
Also caldari spent all the war with lower numbers and technology but their squad tactics with frigates allowed them to kickass all battles until gallentes finally achieved to design the comabt drones.
Now gallente will face the most technologic advanced empire, with the most focused mind, they are like old greek cities, struggling beetwen all the time but can focus all his forces for a common enemy in a matter of secs and the only thing caldari want above everything is their own freedown to act as their want. Also count that while gallente still keep a free mind society, mostly of caldari ppl still keep a hate feeling against gallente.
So not start yours bet too soon over gallente.
Suicide it's man way to tell God. You can't fire me so I quit. |
Justus Imperius
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Posted - 2006.01.13 20:44:00 -
[207]
What would be kewl = Caldari beat Gallente to hell. Gallente Federations splits up into many sub factions. Some of them pirate ( Archangels ), some mining ( ORE ), etc. I dunno sounded good in my head :P
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Alex Christensen
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Posted - 2006.01.13 21:40:00 -
[208]
The I find it amusing how arrogant most Caldari's are.. It's so sad that they can just be happy with the space they got atm. but they really wan't to loose it all BTW: I really do think that the federation learning something about the Caldari war tactics since the last war. But I'll look forward to se the Federation Navy moving in to Jita and cleaning up the mess there
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Lautrec
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Posted - 2006.01.17 18:06:00 -
[209]
Jeeez...
Gallente will win of course
For one very very simple reason: - Shield tanking and missiles are for girls. Real men tank their armor and shoot blasters. period.
Allez le Gallente!
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Alex Christensen
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Posted - 2006.01.17 18:41:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Lautrec Jeeez...
Gallente will win of course
For one very very simple reason: - Shield tanking and missiles are for girls. Real men tank their armor and shoot blasters. period.
Allez le Gallente!
Well said
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